Alien Contact

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Lint**

To be fair, the woman is an Eldar. Psychic anyone? She was probably asking for it. I mean look at how she was dressed.

**Matrim**

Who do Eldar have boobs anyway?

**asimo77**

All that I can think of is someone sepnding tons of hours dedicated to making a scene of toy soldiers raping each other....

This is pretty bad

**Manchu**

asimo77 wrote:All that I can think of is someone sepnding tons of hours dedicated to making a scene of toy soldiers raping each other....

This is pretty bad

I know. What will they do next? Invent whole ranges of toy soldiers ideologically committed to oppression, genocide, murder, torture, and mayhem more generally? Can you imagine if there were people who had careers entirely based on this? Or sepnt vast sums of money collecting this stuff? Or spent hours posting on a fourm about it?

Won't someone please think of the children???

**Gibbsey**

Manchu wrote:
asimo77 wrote:All that I can think of is someone sepnding tons of hours dedicated to making a scene of toy soldiers raping each other....

This is pretty bad

I know. What will they do next? Invent whole ranges of toy soldiers ideologically committed to oppression, genocide, murder, torture, and mayhem more generally? Can you imagine if there were people who had careers entirely based on this? Or sepnt vast sums of money collecting this stuff? Or spent hours posting on a fourm about it?

Won't someone please think of the children???

I dont think we need infanticide aswell....

**Manchu**

Well, buster, it happens in the grimdark. When you're exterminating entire planetary populations--or species for that matter--you don't make exceptions of the kids.

**MajorTom11**

Lol even the mods are split on this one... I'm with Manchu on this one though, use a chibi-hawk to kill miniature children!

**Manchu**

MajorTom11 wrote:use a chibi-hawk to kill miniature children!

But when they all scream "ahhh, chibihawk incommmmmming!" before being crushed, think how many Blood Angels and Dark Angels will get their wings!

**asimo77**

I just think it's silly when people go "what a passionate expression of art!" or "a tour de force of raep!" and other nonsense.

This is just some serious fetish fuel. The guy is probably into rape fantasies, elfs, sci-fi, microphilia, and who knows what else.

I don't see anything separating this from all the rule 34 stuff on 4chan and the like.

**Manchu**

You like Necrons, right? I guessing you're a total necrophile. Or perhaps it's the idea of flensing off a person's skin that excites you? And, look I've got an Ultramarines avatar: what strange perversions am I trying to express? Pfft.

As much as any miniatures diorama can be art, this one is. This work has more depth of character and story than about 60% of what BL publishes, nevermind the enormous technical skill and creativity that it demonstrates. And it is entirely true to the world of Warhammer 40,000. I'd bet that if GW didn't make so much money off of preteens this kind of thing would be standard fare in terms of official Codex art. I bet this would even be tame, actually.

**Frazzled**

It can be art but still be BAD art Manchu.

**Manchu**

I think it's good art. And like a lot of good art, it's dangerous for the morally underdeveloped. I see that angle. There are people out there immature enough to "read" this piece as an endorsement of actual rape. I don't blame the hobbyist/artist for that deficiency, however.

**Corpsesarefun**

Manchu wrote:I think it's good art. And like a lot of good art, it's dangerous for the morally underdeveloped. I see that angle. There are people out there immature enough to "read" this piece as an endorsement of actual rape. I don't blame the hobbyist/artist for that deficiency, however.

Exactly what manchu said,

dont blame the artist, blame the victim!

**Lint**

corpsesarefun wrote:
dont blame the artist, blame the victim!

Like I said, she's totally asking for it.

**MajorTom11**

Manchu wrote:I think it's good art. And like a lot of good art, it's dangerous for the morally underdeveloped. I see that angle. There are people out there immature enough to "read" this piece as an endorsement of actual rape. I don't blame the hobbyist/artist for that deficiency, however.

Here here, and Frazz, I don't think Manchu is trying to decide for anyone whether they like it or not. He is simply expressing his opinion that clearly a lot more work and though went into the piece than simply popping out boobies. The fact that many people find it thought provoking also nudge it into the definition of art a bit more than craft. There are plenty of fine art pieces that depict similar themes or scenes, and you won't see them quite as much as van gogh due to their subject matter, but it is most definitely out there. As one of the ugliest sides of human nature, it is worth exploring as long as the discussions that result can be conducted with maturity and agreement on the less subjective aspects.

No one is going yay rape, but saying this guy is nothing but a dirty little mini perve who had no reason for doing this piece other than he wanted to stroke out to mini boobs is waaaaaaaaay to strong to be put forward as legitimate criticism. He could easily have gotten a similar scene with massively less amounts of work and character if all he wanted was something dirty for dirty's sake. That that this guy thought up an adult and harsh situation with 5 hard-up soldiers and a beautiful alien when they are in some isolated part of a battlefield is not a stretch, it's a logical assumption (to me).

There is plenty not to like if you find it intensly offensive, and are too uncomfortable to imagine the situation and psychology. (that's not a knock, I genuinely respect people not liking it on a visceral level and not wanting anything to do with it) But, at the same time, if you want to sway people of differing opinion, saying it sucks 'just because' inst going to swing it. Why not just agree to disagree?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lint wrote:
corpsesarefun wrote:
dont blame the artist, blame the victim!

Like I said, she's totally asking for it.

And ya, it's this kinda gak response that's not helping. It's not funny dude. It's not something you should laugh at at the best of times, and frankly, in a thread full of people with strong feelings, that kind of comment really derails what could otherwise be an enjoyable if intense debate.

Jokes like that belong on x-box live man. lol

**Depraved**

Excellent execution. This diorama is full of emotion, you can see greed, lust, anger, wrath, regret and more upon their faces. Rape is a classic art subject matter and one of many taboo subjects that artists help people to express, remember and visualize.

P. da Cortona, Rape of the Sabines (Capitoline)

Rape of the Daughters of Leucippus 1618

Rape of Oreithyia by Boreas

**HF Izanagi**

I think MajorTom puts it in a good way. The subject matter of the piece obviously has people bringing up negative feelings about the piece and unfortunately, for the artist himself/herself. The fact that it took so much time when he could have easily taken sprue material and bent them into suggestive shapes and positions shows that a lot of thought and time was put into moulding a thought/feeling-provoking scene. Essentially, they're standard figurines converted into a facet of our reality (under a guise of fantasy) that brings up such feelings of revulsion. (for both the piece, the subject, and the artist)

Again, while the subject is dark, almost taboo, it isn't a reason to ride on the artist as a pervert and automatically shoot it down as art. It got you feeling sick in your stomach or angry? Art has a way of doing that. Same thing with miniatures when we find that someone has just made the nicest rendition of our favored characters and painted it to a masterpiece level. We say "holy

, that is awesome" and we feel SOMETHING for it, whether that be happiness, jealousy (for not having thought/created it first, and not owning it), or awe. Just because the subject isn't right in your mind, it doesn't mean that it was done distastefully, disrespectfully, or with the singular purpose to get off on it. That's being a bit too harsh in judgement.

Those on the "art" boat probably won't sway the opinions of those on the other side, but I think that's a good thing. It's all in the opinions of the person viewing it.

**Lint**

MajorTom11 wrote:And ya, it's this kinda gak response that's not helping. It's not funny dude. It's not something you should laugh at at the best of times, and frankly, in a thread full of people with strong feelings, that kind of comment really derails what could otherwise be an enjoyable if intense debate.
Jokes like that belong on x-box live man. lol

Nothing wrong with injecting humour into the debate... It's like laughing at cartoon characters burning eachother with flamethrowers. Obviously if you saw it happening irl it would not be something to laugh at. Maybe you didn't get the sarcasm in the joke?

**Augustus**

It's an awesome piece of work! I really liked it composition wise, execution wise and just overall!

There is only 'drama' here if you haven't seen bewbeez before.

Hey it's the internet, if that's your issue, go get your fix and quit decrying the excellent diorama. By comparison to other things on the net, this was tasteful and well executed.

**Mr Nobody**

If it was a dark eldar, she would be smiling. I think this scene was an attempt to be extremely grimdark, and maybe went a little too far into the tasteless IMO.

**shasolenzabi**

It also reminds me of scenes in movies where things look grim for the female and as they are about to make their move, I can imagine the next scene would be the snap of a bolt pistol as a commissar and a squad of hand picked "cleanliness" troops arrive to stop them from contaminating themselves with such xenos contact. That and the commissar would likely see her as a source of Intelligence on the enemy.

The tableau is implying that a serious situation is about to ensue, but it has not yet done so. A moment frozen in time, one that has obviously elicited some visceral responses, and that is the essence of art, to grab us at the core of our being. I am somewhat disturbed by the subject matter, but I can also appreciate the details, the pain work, the dirt effects etc. I agree, she may have had some undergarment(usually a body glove or something) but the piece is done.

Not only will the veteran squad sully themselves with the black mark of a rape, but that of intimate contact with xenos, They are going against the catechisms regarding aliens. No matter what, the Eldar is not going to enjoy what is left of her life, either due to the implied rape, the Interrogation process, and the fact that the Imperium does not like taking alien prisoners.

**Augustus**

MajorTom11 wrote:There is plenty not to like if you find it intensly offensive, and are too uncomfortable to imagine the situation and psychology. (that's not a knock, I genuinely respect people not liking it on a visceral level and not wanting anything to do with it) But, at the same time, if you want to sway people of differing opinion, saying it sucks 'just because' inst going to swing it. Why not just agree to disagree?

Well said Major!

Also these are strait off the GW website:

In Chains:

This isn't the first time this theme was visited: Inter alien abuse, but this time it's the other way around, I think the IG Eldar piece is a great reversal/response to this:

Which I don't ever remember people decrying for lurid content. Surely it hasn't entered this discussion yet, and this is from the original manufacturer.

**asimo77**

Mr Nobody wrote:If it was a dark eldar, she would be smiling. I think this scene was an attempt to be extremely grimdark, and maybe went a little too far into the tasteless IMO.

Yes this, WH40k is a game I don't need rape in my game. I don't like looking at it or thinking about it; and I'm sure that's a pretty normal thing. Maybe it's just me but I don't find 40k all that serious it's all very silly. Everyone talks about genocide, war, and grimdarkery but all that is taken to such extremes and presented in such a fashion that it's humourous. Like frazzled said genocide committed by fighting fungi men isn't the best way to take the concept of genocide seriously, but as far as rape goes it's pretty hard not to take it seriously.

The grimdarkness isn't the best satire so I'm going to assume it is not an artistic endeavour and more of an entertaining one. In other words it's all to make the world over the top and wacky and give you a reason to field superhumans and space elfs. And this is perfectly fine for a tabletop game, it doesn't need to make any commentary on rape and real world evils, and so far it hasn't (at least not in a meaningful way). Also why is this art but all the other pics on say /tg or whatever isn't?

Also I think I'm going to stop. Can't be talking about serious business on the internet. Must lurk more....regain sanity...

**Augustus**

asimo77 wrote:..perfectly fine for a tabletop game, it doesn't need to make any commentary on rape and real world evils, and so far it hasn't (at least not in a meaningful way). ...

Uh, do you know what Slanesh is? An entire 1/4 th of the chaos faction dedicated to the very concept?

Daemonettes?
Azdrubael Vect?
Emperor's Children?
Sister Repentia?

It's been a theme in the game for a long time. With these kind of shortsited artisitic morales a whole lot more of the game becomes tasteless. How about these?

It's not just women either:

Trying to depict the diorama in that example as something way beyond the content of the 40 universe is just prudish and wrong.

**Lycaeus Wrex**

I think its an excellent piece. The expressions in the faces are note-perfect (observe the sadistic grin of the Guardman holding the lasgun), and it highlights an aspect of war that is too commonly ignored or swept under the rug purely *because* of its sensitive and taboo subject area.

This piece goes far beyond the realm of simply gluing plastic spacemenz together and actually attempts to present a darker, more sinister and more *realistic* interpretation of what could (and has) happened on innumerable battlefields both past, present and presumably future.

I applaud the artist for not only the excellent quality of painting and modelling, but also for daring to broach a subject as controversial as this.

Well done!

L. Wrex

**jackanory**

Wow. My first reaction to this piece was one of revulsion and sadness and I think this is what the artist was trying to achieve. Don't you haters think that if he was some sort of rape fetishist he would have actually depicted the rape itself?
Although it's got flaws I think this is a really great depiction of one of the many horrors of war. I find it weird the way people delineate what scenes are appropriate in our hobby in, what seems to me, to be a completely arbitrary fashion. Why is it ok the make social commentaries on war like this in movies, fine art etc but not in miniatures?
As a side note I love the defiant look on her face like she's just waiting for the opportunity to end these guys. I think the guy with the bolter will be spared though, he's clearly feeling the same way I do about the scene.

**OoieGoie**

The diorama in question has been posted a few times already with the same theme!!!

Its the idea that "she could be.." that sickens people. She isnt being raped in the picture, nor could be if the theme was continued (although there is a chance). Its telling a story and all the details are there if you're willing to look at the picture longer then 2 sec. There is so much detail people seem to miss. Go on, go look...

Love the diorama. Brilliant. 10\10.

Now go back to your Dark Eldar and Slaanash armies.

**A Black Ram**

When I first saw this piece the day it was on CMON, all I could think of was the movie ''Casualties of War'', where a squad of men become unstable and rape,torure and among other things to women. Art is art, like my art teacher said to my painting of Abaddon, ''I don't care if it's inappropriate,it's my art show ''. He finds art to be a true form of telling opinions, and he didn't care if the principal saw A violent marine with trophies decorating his body.

Go for whatever man. Art will not always please everyone, this kinda giving the message '' just because they are the humans doesn't mean they always are the good guys''.
Think district 9.

**Augustus**

I think there is even a subtler story being told if you know some history of the Eldar. It makes the piece really Ironic.

To summarize:

The Fall of the Eldar was what gave rise to the current Imperium of man, and it came about when the Excesses of Eldar Hedonism gave rise to the Chaos God of Pleasure, Slanesh.

The birth of that god was such a powerful event as to rend the very fabric of space time and cause most of the misery of mankind when the Golden Age of science came to an end and the Emperor then had to go on the crusades to reunify the galaxy, the war of which is still raging in the time line.

There's a great irony in Imperial troops depicted about to abuse an Eldar because, per the timeline the entire plight of Humanity and the Empire's struggle against Chaos and the rise of the Emperor after the Crusades can all be laid at the feet of the Eldar and the Fall.

PAYBAX in short.

**Accolade**

In my opinion, I think that the "you're a hypocrite if you are repulsed by the sexuality of this piece but are okay with extreme violence" isn't necessarily a fair point.

I think the difference between this piece and, say, the Dark Eldar slave models has to do with the present action of the models in question. That is to say, the slave models are not in the position of being raped, but are simply in a situation where it is a likelihood/possibility. You are free to choose in your mind which direction you will take with this, but the course is not spelled out to you. You can also compare the Dark Eldar slave models to the Wet Nurse Kingdom Death model that was creating quite a stir a month ago: the models in this piece are in the present position of rape/the process is actively occurring. Were the exact same female models put in less leading positions next to that models, I think the response would be a bit different. With this being said, I feel it not simply the fact of rape that is disturbing, but the fact that is in action, and as such I think you can apply this same argument to other gratuitous acts, including torture.

The issue with rape itself comes from the fact that it is a highly malicious and self-gratifying act that occurs on a defenseless target. Torture can function under the same setting. I wonder if people might have the same reaction to a diorama of demons committing violent acts against chained-up/cornered defenseless humans. I remember actually having a bit of a reaction to a piece of Tyranid art where rippers were actively eating a still-living guardsmen, screaming in agony. However, the same response is not necessarily elicited from two forces of *equivalent* power engaged in attacking each other. Both groups attacks, be it demons v. humans, are single-minded: the expedited destruction of the other. However, with torture/rape, the intentions are different. The goal is not only to inflict death on the enemy, but to draw the process out as long as possible and to do so in a manner than gives the attacker mental/emotional gratification. It is harder for people to accept the thought of beings doing this, because it is at such odds with their own views.

All-in-all, I think it boils down to defenselessness of the said target. I think it applies to all acts, be they rape, torture, mass genocide, etc.