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All Astartes generally refer to each other as "Brother".

Ahriman was doing it to mock the Blood Raven he was fighting.

Kanluwen wrote:All Astartes generally refer to each other as "Brother".

Ahriman was doing it to mock the Blood Raven he was fighting.

Kal, I seen in a several threads that you are strongly pointing that TS are not the legion from witch BR came...
Then what is your theory? Where did they came from?

My theory that BR are actually from Legion II or XI ( all data lost, go figure... ).

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:All Astartes generally refer to each other as "Brother".

Ahriman was doing it to mock the Blood Raven he was fighting.

Kal, I seen in a several threads that you are strongly pointing that TS are not the legion from witch BR came...
Then what is your theory? Where did they came from?

My theory that BR are actually from Legion II or XI ( all data lost, go figure... ).

What's my theory?

That there's no single Legion that can be pointed towards as the progenitor of the Blood Ravens.

And it's "Kan" if you're trying to be informal. 'L' != 'N'.

However, it can't be the Lost Legions either. They were purged and lost before the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy really hit their stride. We don't know the circumstances, we just know that it happened and all records were expunged because of it.

Kanluwen wrote:
However, it can't be the Lost Legions either. They were purged and lost before the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy really hit their stride. We don't know the circumstances, we just know that it happened and all records were expunged because of it.

Ok, but there is also a strong possibility that some marines survive from either Legion II or XI and joined the Imperium after Heresy. Chapters where sounded, but it was still such a mess that some records where also lost from that time.

Just a wild speculation.

There is absolutely no "possibility" that some Marines survived from either of those Legions.

There's hinting at it within "The First Heretic", but the one who drops that hint is quickly corrected and told to stop his ceaseless prattling.

Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

iproxtaco wrote:Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

...Did you just not read the part I said?

The only place we have that stated is "First Heretic". The Word Bearer who says that is then pretty much told to shut up and stop spreading rumors.

So no. It's likely not the case.

I sure did.

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

...Did you just not read the part I said?

The only place we have that stated is "First Heretic". The Word Bearer who says that is then pretty much told to shut up and stop spreading rumors.

So no. It's likely not the case.

Kan you can't argue with iproxtaco, he is Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentc. And that means that he knows everything .

EVERYTHING!

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Some of them survived by possibly being absorbed into The Ultramarines .

...Did you just not read the part I said?

The only place we have that stated is "First Heretic". The Word Bearer who says that is then pretty much told to shut up and stop spreading rumors.

So no. It's likely not the case.

Kan you can't argue with iproxtaco, he is Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentc. And that means that he knows everything .

Actually, Rubric Marines are essentially just animated suits of armor. Without Sorcerers nearby, they're completely useless.

So...does that make me a Sorcerer?

Nope, I have my wing-man right beside me as I type.

The fact that he was silenced is no indication that what he was saying was false. The Emperor declared a moratorium on any mention of those two Primarchs and their Legion. The Word Bearer's comment may well have been true, there's no way of knowing either way.

I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned it yet, but Age of Darkness pretty much confirms that they are founded from the Thousand Sons. I forget the name of the perticular story (and my copy is several hundred misles away), but in the story about one of the Thousand Sons' splinter fleets returning to Prospero, at the end they leave very little doubt about who the Blood Raven's ancestors are.

It's been mentioned, if not on this thread then on one of the other few threads on the topic.

Omegus wrote:The fact that he was silenced is no indication that what he was saying was false. The Emperor declared a moratorium on any mention of those two Primarchs and their Legion. The Word Bearer's comment may well have been true, there's no way of knowing either way.

Okay, let's get something straight.

He wasn't silenced because it "may well have been true" or some kind of moratorium on any mention of those two Primarchs and their Legion.

He was silenced because he was citing a rumor that he'd heard from a member of the Lodge that was operating within the shadows of the Astartes. There was almost no backing to it, simply idle rumor being talked about from a Word Bearer after the Legion had been humiliated by the Ultramarines. The rumor in question was that "the reason the Ultramarines have so many members is that they've absorbed the Astartes from the two Lost Legions". The Word Bearers and Ultramarines, prior to the Word Bearers being humiliated by the Ultramarines, had a bit of a rivalry going because they were the two largest Legions and they had a similar record of subjugations and worlds they'd brought the Imperial Truth to.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shivan Reaper wrote:I'm suprised that nobody has mentioned it yet, but Age of Darkness pretty much confirms that they are founded from the Thousand Sons. I forget the name of the perticular story (and my copy is several hundred misles away), but in the story about one of the Thousand Sons' splinter fleets returning to Prospero, at the end they leave very little doubt about who the Blood Raven's ancestors are.

It's "Rebirth", and the end gives absolutely nothing about the Blood Raven's ancestry. It uses a literary device to make you think "Ohmygod! Foreshadowing!" and a phrase that is used by every single member of the Imperium of Man during the height of the Great Crusade and the Heresy.

It's not definitive. It's not even subjective. It's just there.

Meh, I don't see it. Any time anyone mentioned anything regarding those two primarchs, they were swiftly silenced. Even Dorn was cut short by the Sigilite.

Rumor or not, the Ultramarines' ranks did swell suddenly and rapidly. We don't know how much backing there was or wasn't to it. The fact that there was such a rumor going around in the first place is reason enough not to immediately dismiss it with "LALALALALANOWAYTHATHAPPENEDLALALALALAITSLIES!"

Sothas wrote:People keep saying that there's only one proof, the 1ksons book prophecy, but wasn't there a moment in the DoW books where Ahriman called a blood raven brother? I havn't read those yet so I'm just going off what I've heard.

And to the dude that said Hawaii was made a state in 1960, that's super close for not double checking. August 21, 1959 is the date, so cudos to you for your momory. (Yes I checked. Really needed to know for some reason )

In the Blood Ravens Omnibus " Dawn Of War Tempest" on pg.721 they talk about a book called Quezul'reah, which means the Un-Founding. "Im sure that you have heard of it" says Ahriman. "as I recall your Azariah Vidya once held a copy of this. If I remember correctly he even wrote a commentary on it. what was it called? "
"The Apocrypha of the Un-Founding" Rhamah replied. a couple of sentences down the page Ahriman says " I knew Vidya better than you might expect..."
That being said, it does come from Goto, so you can take that with a grain of salt. On the other hand, it was hinted that heir chapter master or founding father could have been a powerful sorcerer for the Legion of Magnus. Not all of the Thousand Sons Marines would have been present doing the attack by the Space Wolves. Noting especially the novel "Battle for the Abyss," when the Thousand Sons fought with the Ultra Marines and the Space Wolves, not all of the Sons went against the Emperor or followed the legion into Chaos.

Does that help any?

EDIT: Apparently I can't spell today...

Their Chapter Master and Founding Father was not hinted to "have been a powerful sorcerer for the Legion of Magnus".

Azariah Vidya took over after the Chapter Master and Master of Sanctity(head Chaplain) were both killed organizing a retreat during a campaign where the Blood Ravens were almost wiped out by Chaos cultists devoted to Tzeentch.

Funny how well their famed "foresight" helped them there.

Kanluwen wrote:Their Chapter Master and Founding Father was not hinted to "have been a powerful sorcerer for the Legion of Magnus".

Azariah Vidya took over after the Chapter Master and Master of Sanctity(head Chaplain) were both killed organizing a retreat during a campaign where the Blood Ravens were almost wiped out by Chaos cultists devoted to Tzeentch.

Funny how well their famed "foresight" helped them there.

Like I said, it's Goto, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. I personally consider Relic's take on things as canon (as the chapter is their baby, and ignore pretty much anything that Goto pulled from the pimply depths of his hindquarters (cozying up to Space Elves from Space? You're putting me on!!!), but GW let him get away with it for quite a while, didn't they?

Don't get me wrong, I love the Blood Ravens and TableTop gaming as much as the next man-child, and have my subscription to White Dwarf (including the one with the Index Astartes article on them), so I have all of the info you have brought up. It was simply asked if there was any other information out there, so I offered - specifically stating that it was Goto's work, and should be taken as such. It wasn't Vidya I was talking about in "Battle," so you can put away the now...

Never! Fire good!

...unless it's around your groin. They make a cream for that...

They are almost certainly descendants of thousand suns

Who are The Thousand Suns?

Why is there a new thread on this topic every few weeks?

Some people neglect the Search function.

I'ver posted in a nother thread somewhere a load of stuff supporting why and blancing the argument out with counter arguments to points just to get people discussing it a little more but here's my main view:
I'm pretty sure the Emperor sitting with the palace falling around him and rabid Daemons at the gates was saying "why didn't I listen to Magnus about Horus being corrupted by the powers of the Warp? Oh if only I mentioned to my creations that I hacked off some pretty powerful entities who were going to be out for revenge..." So the Emperor knew Magnus hadn't turned traitor, he and the Thousand sons were the star players in a tragedy plotted and played out by something far more powerful than the Emperor was. He also then knew what must be done to ensure humaity's survival and so forth, so just might have mentioned pre or post gutted by Horus (ref: Harlequin novels where the Emperor speaks to an inquisitor phsychicly at the golden throne) let psykers be used by the Legions/Chapters and to accept those who had remained loyal into the fold with the military might at a lowpoint.
With the casualty losses from the Heresy and the Time needed to make a space marine I believe the powers that be that took over running the show after the mortal wounding etc would have accepted any marines who had remained Loyal to the Imperium for the peace keeping and purging the remaining battlefields of traitors. What Is the only stumbling block in this argument for Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons genestock would be the mutation. Unless ofcourse there is another tragedy still to play itself out .
Perhaps some hybrid genestock could have been created but unless it came from the Ultramarines I would be inclined to dismiss it. With the casualties the Blood Angels suffered they were in danger of becoming a dead legion if not for engineering more from the body of their primark and therefore creating the black rage and emo vampire tendancies. (Or has GW changed that story as well? ><.
Simply from the Goto stuff, which surprised me when it turned out I hadn't just bought expensive toilet paper for a train trip, I'll lean towards them being Thousand Sons stock, but with a very unclear future which will hold tragedy and a past which was expunged simply to stop certain other chapters crying and throwing their bolters on the floor before storming off in a huff. At least the BR aren't totally emo over not knowing their own Primarach and having this background actually makes them interesting to me. Have been tempted to strip my DA down and redo them BR many times simply bacause the Ezekiel model would still fit in as a higher ranking librarian and look just as awesome as it does now

Werd...

More evidence in favor of the Thousand Sons:

It's not 'more evidence' if it's been posted a few bajillion times.

And as I've said, repeatedly:
1) "Knowledge is Power" is a ridiculously, absurdly common phrase during the Heresy and the Great Crusade. It's like saying "Hello" or "You're Welcome".
2) The "vision" that was given out is almost exactly the same as what a Raven Guard associated Imperial Army Captain received before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre.
3) You saw a "raven head" on his shoulder guard. Not a "raven".

So yes. It is entirely, 100% out of the question that he started the Blood Ravens.