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Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius and Corax had an illecit affair for several years resulting in Corax's pregnancy. When they could no longer conceal the truth from the Emperor he forced Corax to give up the child for adoption.

That child became the first Blood Raven but never knew who his parents were.

Oh my god too awesome


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:That is clearly impossable.

the Blood Ravens can't be Blood Angel successors because they don't have the Red Thirst.


Relic is doing a good job of adhering to the fluff so i think they will enforce the 1k sons theory. especially since 1k sons will be in the next DoW2 game.

Lamenters are descendants of the blood angels and dont have the red thirst or black rage, it could be argued that these gene flaws are psychological flaws brought out by the process of ensanguination and the particular pyscho indoctrination methods the blood angels and there successors employ. For all we know they could be blood angel successors or even of hybrid gene seed descent would be pretty neat if they were a hybrid of corax and sanguinius's gene seed would make the name that much more apt as well.

Lamenters do have the flaws, but have learned to control them so well.

Cerebrium wrote:Lamenters do have the flaws, but have learned to control them so well.

The codex states explicitly that they managed to "remove" the flaw using some kind of high tech experiments but it somehow left them with ... bad luck

Interesting arguement. I hadn't thought of that.

It could be possible...

Here's what I see in favour for the Blood Ravens being BA successors:

blood in name (obviously)
similar armour

against:
cannot use the "No black rage or red thirst" because as Chrono said, they could have possibly pulled a Lamentors.


for the Thousand sons arguement:

more psykers (chapter master is one)
similar to thousand sons pre-heresy armour
prophesy in thousand sons novel depicting the raven of blood
thirst for knowledge

against:

absence of flesh change

There could be more points for the BA successors but seeing as I'm in the Thousand Sons successors camp, I don't have any more

Perhaps they're a successor legion, OR there primarch is Indrick Boreale.

Grey Templar wrote:The Blood Angels actually have quite a few Psykers too so the connection is understandable.


Relic really picked a good name. it does add that Aura of Mystery that is present in many 40k stories.

You know, here's what always throws me about these theories.

Do people not realize that the whole "psychic" connection could just be relating to the Blood Ravens' original homeworld, which they purged themselves?

The psykers you find within an Astartes Chapter aren't by coincidence. The Chapters pretty much single them out during the selection process because of that psyker ability.
The Librarian descriptions we've had in Index Astartes and most recently "Deathwatch: Rites of Battle" even say as much.

So throw the psyker connection out, it's likely an abnormality that was trademark of the Blood Ravens' original homeworld.
None of their recruits from Meridian(like Thaddeus) or elsewhere(Tarkus and the Commander for example) are psykers.

Cyrene wasn't the Blood Ravens' homeworld, it was one of their recruiting planets. They've been a fleet-based chapter for the entirety of their recorded history. Cyrene was the homeworld of Captain Angelos, and he was forced to consign it to Exterminatus. That planet did have a high incidence of Psykers, but Index Astartes said that that seems to be the case on many Blood Raven recruiting worlds.

That the Blood Ravens have many psykers is not itself a clue to their origins; that they hold psykers in high regard and cultivate them to such a degree may well be.

Magnus stopped the flesh change by making a deal with Tzeentch. That deal with Tzeenth occured long before the destruction of Prospero where he made another deal, this time to save his sons. He gave up one of his eyes (and God knows what else) in exchange for his sons not being mutated, likely soon after he was found by the Emperor. So the one eye was not there since the beginning and I'd like to know what story he told his daddy.

Magnus was a nice papa. No wonder he was so pissed off when Ahriman did his thing.

Exopheric wrote:Cyrene wasn't the Blood Ravens' homeworld, it was one of their recruiting planets. They've been a fleet-based chapter for the entirety of their recorded history. Cyrene was the homeworld of Captain Angelos, and he was forced to consign it to Exterminatus. That planet did have a high incidence of Psykers, but Index Astartes said that that seems to be the case on many Blood Raven recruiting worlds.

That the Blood Ravens have many psykers is not itself a clue to their origins; that they hold psykers in high regard and cultivate them to such a degree may well be.

Them holding psykers in high regard isn't a clue to their origins.

Every Chapter that fields Librarians holds psykers in high regard.

Them cultivating psykers might be a clue though.

Probably has nothing to do with actual fluff. Maybe it's just coincidental...

The name Ahriman is Indo-Iranian. Ahriman the psyker was plucked out of the "Achaemenid Empire" in the future that is the 40k universe by the Emperor on Terra.

The Emperor is from "Anatolia", which historically was controlled by the Persians (who also founded the real Achamenid empire) and heavily settled by greek peoples. Then, falling under the control of the Greeks through Alexander the Great and the Western Roman empire in the guise of the Byzantines, umm, who were really greeks in the first place.

Many of the characters names in the Blood Ravens are of languages associated with that expanse of land which extends from the eastern mediterranean and on to the Indus River. This would include anything of Greek, Hebrew, Iranian or Indian naming conventions which many of the characters associated with the Blood Ravens seem to have. The Achamenid Empire on Terra included all the areas mentioned to some degree and even controlled Egypt which seems to be a strong theme withiin the Thousand Sons.

The following though, is the strongest "proof" that the Blood Ravens are indeed the decendants of the loyalist "Thousand Sons".

Azariah Vidya (the psyker hero/one-time chapter master of the Blood Ravens) whose name broken down is, Azariah = Hebrew "helped by god" and the Indic Vidya = "knowledge".

Which in turn also happens to be similar to the surname of Hank Azaria who is of Hebrew and Greek extraction and does many voices for the "Simpsons" T.V. show.

One character in particular makes me laugh, Apu Nahasapeemapetilon. He hails from Calcutta, in India... er, which wasn't ever within the Achaemenid Empire, but Apu is, in point of fact, an Indian... and fictional like Azariah Vidya. Apu's favorite song (according to Wikipedia) is the "Dream Police" (which the loyalist Thousands Sons must surely be in order to maintain the lie...) written by the band "Cheap Trick" (which explains a lot from some points of view) and THAT by itself must surely be enough to put this mystery to rest.

You're right that probably is a coincidence.

I think in the third Blood Ravens book Airhman was talking to i think a Blood raven and said they had many things in common

No way they could be descended from the Blood Angels. The Ravens show no sign at all of The Flaw, wich makes itsself evident in all of the Sons of Sanguinius. I lean towards the Ravens being a loyalist splinter on the Thousand Sons, because of their high rate of psykers, and because of the passage in A Thousand Sons.

The Blood Ravens aren't the only chapter which is known for valuing strong psykers. Both the Howling Gryphons and the Silver Skulls have a similar preference for a powerful psykercorps.
Goto's books can be more or less disregarded imo, nothing from them has ever found entry into the DoW games which should be considered the mainsource of fluff for that particular
chapter (they are after all "Relic's chapter" ).

KingDeath wrote:The Blood Ravens aren't the only chapter which is known for valuing strong psykers. Both the Howling Gryphons and the Silver Skulls have a similar preference for a powerful psykercorps.
Goto's books can be more or less disregarded imo, nothing from them has ever found entry into the DoW games which should be considered the mainsource of fluff for that particular
chapter (they are after all "Relic's chapter" ).

Indeed. In fact, Matt Ward(in this month's WD article on the Furioso and Stormraven kits) states that BA have the largest number of Librarians of any chapter, so if anyone should get a Libby dread, they(BA) should.

Very insightful thread.

Thanks!

Eumerin wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Blood Ravens are likely descended from 1k sons who weren't present at the burning of Prospero. since they didn't escape into the warp and give their souls to Tzeench they weren't effected by the Flesh Change.

these survivors, caught between Chaos and the Imperium, decide to lay low and continue to serve the IoM in secret.

then the Codex is written and the Chapters are created.

these survivors then come out into the open after a couple of foundings, declare themselves a chapter that has forgotten it's founding and they are fine.

I would assume that someone in the geneseed department would have eventually said, "Wait a minute, we don't have a record of these guys. What have we been doing with their geneseed tithes...?"

I suspect that the Blood Ravens had allies within the Imperium's beauracracy that were willing to help keep quiet about the whole thing (whether the "thing" was a group of 1Ksons that didn't follow Magnus or a secret founding using 1Ksons geneseed) - though at what cost I don't know. Once a few centuries had passed, all evidence of a cover-up would have been long since gone and the Blood Ravens would have been accepted merely due to the fact that they'd been a known chapter for a long period of time.

I don't think that it would work quite that way, either. Barring the Flesh Change issue (which had been around since the Great Crusade, and according to fluff was only "cured" by the Rubric), a loyalist splinter group of the Thousand Sons could have been reintegrated into the IoM under a different persona, but not by themselves. On the other hand, there were folks like Garro and his retinue, who were plucked by Malcador as loyal marines who didn't follow their respective legions into corruption. If there were an entire group with several hundred or even a thousand marines in a similar situation it would seem rather foolish to simply throw them away as much as it would be to hate the knife for the hand that wields it. That they didn't show up again until after the Heresy and the formulation and implementation of the Codex can possibly be attributed to training, reorganization and realignment, and/or even research with the Mechanicus (with whom the Blood Ravens seem to get along quite well with). Being derived/distilled from a traitor legion would also explain a great deal why their geneseed is tested so frequently, and why the Inquisition like hang out with them so much. I'll be quite interested in how it turns out, too...

there are chapters who do not send Geneseed tithes to Terra, or ones who send Geneseed that is suspected to not be their own.


the Black Dragon are subject to numerous mutations, but all their tithes have come back clean. its suspected they have fooled the system.



the Blood Ravens could have done the same.





Geneseed also changes over time. gradually it becomes unique to the chapter. its possable the place of origin is impossable for the Mechanicus to detect.

or the Mechanicus might be turning a blind eye to the fact in exchange for favors.

Grey Templar wrote:there are chapters who do not send Geneseed tithes to Terra, or ones who send Geneseed that is suspected to not be their own.


the Dragon Warriors are subject to numerous mutations, but all their tithes have come back clean. its suspected they have fooled the system.



the Blood Ravens could have done the same.





Geneseed also changes over time. gradually it becomes unique to the chapter. its possable the place of origin is impossable for the Mechanicus to detect.

or the Mechanicus might be turning a blind eye to the fact in exchange for favors.

Sorry to be nit picky... but do you mean the Black Dragons? Dragon Warriors are a chaos warband I believe (see Salamander)

Yeah, thats what i meant.

Because of the several thinly veiled arguments hardly disguised as debates I decided to go back and read "A Thousand Sons" again myself, and it seems that I was a little off in what I had said before. I'm paraphrasing here, but between pp.380-88 it says basically that a few decades after the Flesh Change hit them, they reunited with Magnus, who then stepped up to the plate to save his gene-kiddos, doing his "mysterious procedure" and stabilizing the genetic structure of the least-effected legionnaires. After that that there were barely a thousand, er, Sons left.

Blood Ravens Specialty: Large number of Librarians
*COUGH* *ASTHMA ATTACK* *KSDJLKSFJDLFJLKJFDK* Sounds familiar ebough to the thousand sons ?

1K Sons Specialty: Large number of psykers

Or they're Grey Knights Successors.



Blood Ravens have a large number of Librarians because, hinted at from their get-go, they recruited from worlds heavy with psyker populations.

It's what led to Angelos purging a planet. It cannot be Thousand Sons because they have not manifested psyker abilities in every single Battle-Brother, nor are their current crop of Librarians exhibiting powers above the norm or in any of the unique ways that the Thousand Sons did.

Khorne Flakes wrote:Blood Ravens Specialty: Large number of Librarians
*COUGH* *ASTHMA ATTACK* *KSDJLKSFJDLFJLKJFDK* Sounds familiar ebough to the thousand sons ?

1K Sons Specialty: Large number of psykers

Wow i don't think ANYONE has ever realised that!
Truly sir you are a genius of unimaginable magnitude!
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth and another series of Doctor Who as fast as oyu can.
I have faith in your abilities...


Oh yeah [/Sarcasm]

purplefood wrote:

Khorne Flakes wrote:Blood Ravens Specialty: Large number of Librarians
*COUGH* *ASTHMA ATTACK* *KSDJLKSFJDLFJLKJFDK* Sounds familiar ebough to the thousand sons ?

1K Sons Specialty: Large number of psykers

Wow i don't think ANYONE has ever realised that!
Truly sir you are a genius of unimaginable magnitude!
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth and another series of Doctor Who as fast as oyu can.
I have faith in your abilities...


Oh yeah [/Sarcasm]

that made me lolz

purplefood wrote:
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth.

It's really easy, you only need to disband nations and states. And tell everyone that from this day on there is no nations, no states - only one race. And to make everyone part of 1 culture ( probably the mix of almost every culture out there ) and to disband religions to, also to cut the monopoly of money and add simple trade instead.
There, all problem will be solved. No terrorism, no wars, everyone work toward the grater good and the planet would be cleanse as everyone would be going toward progressing faster with technological advancement since there would be no need for competition anymore.
Not to much of a problem...

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Forget savng a mere city with your deductive powers, we need your mind working on biger problems like saving the world from global warming and terrorism whilst also creating peace on Earth.

It's really easy, you only need to disband nations and states. And tell everyone that from this day on there is no nations, no states - only one race. And to make everyone part of 1 culture ( probably the mix of almost every culture out there ) and to disband religions to, also to cut the monopoly of money and add simple trade instead.
There, all problem will be solved. No terrorism, no wars, everyone work toward the grater good and the planet would be cleanse as everyone would be going toward progressing faster with technological advancement since there would be no need for competition anymore.
Not to much of a problem...

You clearly have no understanding of humans or society...
Also technology advances quicker during times of conflict...
Peace is just short of inimical to humanity... possible but very difficult.

In before the lock for thread necro when there is a discussion with practically the same title still on the first page.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:It is strongly hinted that Sanguinius

Problem is that they don't all turn into a bunch of pretty boys and a problem with people needing to join the death company! I think the hints are far stronger for the thousand sons, they have vey similar traits, of course it may well be the case that it isn't a single geneseed but a combination of several one of those being the thousand sons?

purplefood wrote:
You clearly have no understanding of humans or society...

I have understanding, our societies are like spoiled brats. You just need to discipline them a little and they will all work toward the grater good.
And if idealistic enough, any Human can follow principles. Especially if you bombard him with enough propaganda from little age...