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More of my Puquet smell.

I heard a rumor that Grot 6 pulled out a couple of boxes out of the cave and was digging through them and found a bunch of old RT era orks.

Combined with the RT books he found, hes now trying to cobble them back into service and get a proper mini mob back up. Something hooked him into looking over those guys to change his mind, the crazy git.

Don't know where he heard that from, but last time I thought he hated GW's Gak to bother with them anymore.....


Hmmm....

Truth or fiction...

Two marine armies in a starter set? I don't know, while it would be good for some players, surely people who were new to the hobby would find it hard to differentiate between the two?

Commander Cain wrote:Two marine armies in a starter set? I don't know, while it would be good for some players, surely people who were new to the hobby would find it hard to differentiate between the two?

Simple, one has spiky bits, the other doesn't.

Alfhedil wrote:

Commander Cain wrote:Two marine armies in a starter set? I don't know, while it would be good for some players, surely people who were new to the hobby would find it hard to differentiate between the two?

Simple, one has spiky bits, the other doesn't.

They could do it in a similar fashion to their Space Hulk game - Make one set of units in red plastic, the other in blue/purple. Then people would readily tell the mini's apart pre-paintjob.

Or maybe have chaos heretics led by chaos marine characters, with the odd daemon or two.

That would fill a lot of the 'starter set' checkboxes.

You mean a Lost & The Damned army. Wouldn't that be nice...

I suppose with the right quantity of spiky bits versus robes, one would be able to spot the difference more easily, daemons would also help set the two apart

H.B.M.C. wrote:You mean a Lost & The Damned army. Wouldn't that be nice...

No thanks. Already got burned once on that.

Fool me once GW shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me...

So what you're saying is if GW did release a full-fledged Lost and the Damned army, you wouldn't buy it. So it would be a waste of their time to even try.

Brilliant thread! Too bad there are so many people who don't know what a rumor is and are expecting names and dates and photo ID.

Evil marines vs slightly less evil marines would make a great starter set. I wonder if the angels will have robes?

I am unsure if this is going to happen or not. If it does, then I would be confused as to why two armies with outdated codices are in the starter set. Unless they're the first to get updated for six ed.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm... In regards to the separate starter sets, I can see a couple of potential flaws that might prevent GW going down that path (although this is GW we're talking about...).
Based on the price of their current starter set they probably won't make it a loss leader like it should be (given its purpose), and so I don't think that two separate new starters would be priced very well for what you get, and putting together two opposing sides might be quite pricey. And while two separate sets would be good for an established gamer since they can get what they want, for its purpose it would be a bit lacking.
I would have thought that they'd want it as one box so that a 12-14 year old might get given it for Christmas or something, and then be able to drag it out when a friend is around, introducing him/her to the game. Otherwise potential marks- I mean customers will already have to be aware of the game and each be willing to spend however much to buy a starter box to be able to play against each other. Just think it might kind of defeat the point.
(just like to say, I have absolutely no business background and am probably right off the mark).

As for the other rumour, about a complete lack of Tau, I am unhappy, yet unsurprised. We better not end up in a Necron or DE situation!

Actually the problem I see with separate starter sets is that if one is popular and another isn't you could see stacks and stacks of one type of starter-set sitting in inventory around the world gathering dust.

On that factor alone I'd say it is a bad idea.

I mean, I'm ok with the idea on the face of it, but in the long-run (something GW seemingly has no concept of), treating starter-sets like quasi-Battle Forces is a bad idea (no matter how much I want more terrain!).

[EDIT]: Unless, of course, they went the whole hog and scrapped Battle Forces completely, replacing them all with 'starter kits' for each army. Now that would be a little wasteful (from a dice/mini-rulebook/templates) perspective, but it would be pretty cool.

Tau not even being talked about anymore? I seriously doubt that seeing that they need an update as badly as the Necrons and much more than the Eldar.

Avrik_Shasla wrote

Tau not even being talked about anymore? I seriously doubt that seeing that they need an update as badly as the Necrons and much more than the Eldar.

Really? I don't think need of updating is a potent motivator for GW. I mean Dark Eldar...

Yeah exactly. What needs an update and what gets an update are often unrelated to one another.

Just saw this on the warseer forums but some of the info validates what the OP said about the design process:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319465

Oh great...

The thread at Whineseer wrote:The reply was that they were changing to try and do a single major release for as much as possible with only some Special Characters being delayed as they can be troublesome to get right. Ogre Kingdoms was used as the example of this.

Right, so after a couple of years of experimenting it we're abandoning the 'wave' release method and going back to the way it was for 3rd and most of 4th. Ok...

The thread at Whineseer wrote:He further elaborated that they won't be discarding and races, as they learnt from their mistake with Squats (and he did specifically call it a mistake) and that they realise now that "they can't pretend like things didn't exist".

*cough* Lost and the mother fething Damned *cough*

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh great...

The thread at Whineseer wrote:He further elaborated that they won't be discarding and races, as they learnt from their mistake with Squats (and he did specifically call it a mistake) and that they realise now that "they can't pretend like things didn't exist".

*cough* Lost and the mother fething Damned *cough*

I am still so very, very bitter over that. I mean I'll do a codex for them for GW as a freelancer if they sodding want. Hmm but then ofcourse they have the problem of suddenly their other codices look terrible.

On the Tau in desperate need thing they've seen fine to me playing them, now nids could do with one. They just don't want eldar updated as once they were then marines suddenly get beat, even jesus marines, as it is they stand a chance!

I dunno, footdar actually does surprisingly well these days. I wouldn't whine too much about elfdar.


And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed. If I see another wave serpent list I might have post traumatic flashbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh great...

The thread at Whineseer wrote:The reply was that they were changing to try and do a single major release for as much as possible with only some Special Characters being delayed as they can be troublesome to get right. Ogre Kingdoms was used as the example of this.

Right, so after a couple of years of experimenting it we're abandoning the 'wave' release method and going back to the way it was for 3rd and most of 4th. Ok...

Shouldn't you be happy? Isn't that exactly what you want? Give GW credit where credit is due.

ph34r wrote:I dunno, footdar actually does surprisingly well these days. I wouldn't whine too much about elfdar.
And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed. If I see another wave serpent list I might have post traumatic flashbacks.

Every army has their time in the sun with a new codex though. But I'd like to see armies last longer than a codex, and still be useful in the next edition. Arguably Eldar have done, granted several entries can be seen as over costed, with the big problem being it is their dedicated transport. But in a way going back to playing armies similar to what I'd have used in 2nd ed is nostalgic for me .
Oh and marines always have their day in the sun, they are the poster boys after all.

Eldar have slightly over-costed vehicles and heavy weapons. If they were lowered a bit the codex would be really competitive again. It's still a pretty good codex though, and doesn't need an update as bad as necrons, tau, or csm.

Only sort of ph34r. My problems with the 'wave' mentality for product releases was more a matter of how it was done rather than the concept itself.

Let me explain:

2nd Ed - There would be a 40K release of some sort every month. In most cases, except the months surrounding a Codex release, these releases were pretty much random. You never knew what was coming, which wasn't that much of a problem, but you never knew if something was coming, and that was an issue. So while it was great that one day GW decided to release a stack of Marine Librarian models to replace the aging Rogue Trader era models that were mostly unavailable at that stage, you were always left wondering things like "Will there ever be a Sentinel model?" or "I know there once was a Battle Wagon model... but will there ever be one again?"

The benefits of this were obvious - things got released all the time. The downsides were equally as obvious - there was never any guarantee that a particular model would ever get a release.

3rd Ed - This was the era of major splash releases and then bone-dry nothing for years at a time. Your Codex would come out, all the required models would come out***, but you better be happy with that because that's all you were getting until the next time they did your Codex.

The good side to this is that you were left with very few gaps (except Special Characters). The Dark Eldar, gak as the range was, had models for everything. The Tau and Necrons got models for every unit in their Codex. Tyranids got new creatures, and no gaps. It was wonderful... sort of. I mean, you would never get anything new for years, but at least you didn't have holes in your line***, right?

4th Ed - Pretty much the same as 3rd, except this time around we get a slow process of swapping metal kits, and especially metal/plastic hybrid kits, with full plastic kits.

End of 4th Ed/5th Ed through to now - Enter the wave!

Now rather than getting a big splash release that fills all the holes in the list, and gives models for anything new, we get wave releases. Ok, there are some really obvious benefits here - staggered releases over a longer period of time, which means that your army can always be assured to have something new over the next 18-24 months after the Codex's initial release. I can live with that, and it's far better than the model dump from 3rd/most of 4th.

Unfortunately, this concept immediately falls apart because it's GW that's enacting it. Instead of a steady stream of releases that fills the Codex's unit choices out as the months go buy we get longer and longer gaps between releases, and some things that just never get releases. We're essentially back to the way 2nd Ed was, only with less LOL-random fun and more "I'm happy to wait but I'd like to know if I'm ever going to get a Shrike/Wartrakk/[Insert missing Warhammer Fantasy choices here - probably something from the Beastman book]?"


And now they want to ditch that approach and go back to the unit-dump 3rd Ed method? It's swinging that pendulum again and avoiding a middle ground approach. If GW is good at anything it's the way and the amount of force they use to swing that pendulum. Applies to everything - fluff, rules, release schedules and methods, interactions with the fan base, and so on.

So I'll give credit where credit's due. Unit-dumps were kinda nice, at least initially, until the realisation that you were in an update wasteland for the next 4-6 years, and the wave system is a great concept (but was executed poorly).

Does that all make more sense now?


*** Orks are always the exception to this. For some reason they never get to have everything in their book no matter what edition they come from. I think the theory is that by 7th Edition they'll have a model for everything that's in the Codex today, but not necessarily everything that's in the Codex by 7th Ed.

CpatTom wrote:

I understood. The kid is GW, and he is warning the OP that if he doesn't shut is mouth, GW's going to bury him under the world's largest pile of cocaine.

Doomrider: Games Workshop Incarnate

Vermillion wrote:

ph34r wrote:I dunno, footdar actually does surprisingly well these days. I wouldn't whine too much about elfdar.
And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed. If I see another wave serpent list I might have post traumatic flashbacks.

Every army has their time in the sun with a new codex though. But I'd like to see armies last longer than a codex, and still be useful in the next edition. Arguably Eldar have done, granted several entries can be seen as over costed, with the big problem being it is their dedicated transport. But in a way going back to playing armies similar to what I'd have used in 2nd ed is nostalgic for me .
Oh and marines always have their day in the sun, they are the poster boys after all.

Not really. No new codex has run as rampant as wave serpent "35/36 of the time I don't care about damage results" Eldar. Uhg.

ph34r wrote:
And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you personally - but looking at things in this way is a sort of games workshop stockholm syndrome. Codexes should not be designed and released in an increasing spiral of powerful rules. The goal should be for all the books to be balanced against each other and full of interesting options, each equally competitive. Not for each book to enjoy time as blatantly better than the rest, until it is superseded.

Who am I kidding though, it'll never happen. All hail our glorious overlords and their mighty release schedule!

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

ph34r wrote:
And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you personally - but looking at things in this way is a sort of games workshop stockholm syndrome. Codexes should not be designed and released in an increasing spiral of powerful rules. The goal should be for all the books to be balanced against each other and full of interesting options, each equally competitive. Not for each book to enjoy time as blatantly better than the rest, until it is superseded.

Who am I kidding though, it'll never happen. All hail our glorious overlords and their mighty release schedule!

??????

Nothing I said suggested that I think all codexes should get more and more powerful.

ph34r wrote:

Vermillion wrote:

ph34r wrote:I dunno, footdar actually does surprisingly well these days. I wouldn't whine too much about elfdar.
And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed. If I see another wave serpent list I might have post traumatic flashbacks.

Every army has their time in the sun with a new codex though. But I'd like to see armies last longer than a codex, and still be useful in the next edition. Arguably Eldar have done, granted several entries can be seen as over costed, with the big problem being it is their dedicated transport. But in a way going back to playing armies similar to what I'd have used in 2nd ed is nostalgic for me .
Oh and marines always have their day in the sun, they are the poster boys after all.

Not really. No new codex has run as rampant as wave serpent "35/36 of the time I don't care about damage results" Eldar. Uhg.

Hmm, if their holo fields worked like the ones on falcons I could see the point, but with them having to accept whatever came up for them on the damage table I assume you mean holofield/spirit stones falcons? Admittedly they were nasty, what with str 6 weapons being classed as defensive too .
But ofcourse, we can't have a codex better than space marines thought GW

And codexes getting more and more powerful? Hmm codex creep so people HAVE to run a couple of armies spaced evenly along the update cycle and NEED to update them with new models each times? Erm, I'll pass, codex creep is the number 1 reason I stopped playing as much. Lets us hope GW realise its going to cost them more sales when people leave so they introduce some semblance of balance...

Vermillion wrote:Hmm, if their holo fields worked like the ones on falcons I could see the point, but with them having to accept whatever came up for them on the damage table I assume you mean holofield/spirit stones falcons? Admittedly they were nasty, what with str 6 weapons being classed as defensive too .
But ofcourse, we can't have a codex better than space marines thought GW

Back in 4th flat out movement was glancing only.

Glancing only + reroll on damage chart = the only way to kill you was a glancing 6 for immobilized, followed by another glancing 6 for another immobilized.

Yeah, it was bad.

We just made Holo-Fields a flat -1 To Hit if you moved last turn. Much simpler.