Interesting 40K Rumours

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**Vermillion**

Ah yeah, point.

**I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly**

ph34r wrote:
I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
ph34r wrote:
And eldar had their time in the sun and then some in 4th ed.

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you personally - but looking at things in this way is a sort of games workshop stockholm syndrome. Codexes should not be designed and released in an increasing spiral of powerful rules. The goal should be for all the books to be balanced against each other and full of interesting options, each equally competitive. Not for each book to enjoy time as blatantly better than the rest, until it is superseded.

Who am I kidding though, it'll never happen. All hail our glorious overlords and their mighty release schedule!
??????

Nothing I said suggested that I think all codexes should get more and more powerful.

I know you didn't say that. My point is that your comment implied that a codex had its day as the most powerful when it was new, and now it can be left to sink lower and lower in the rankings. And that's not ideal. It shouldn't even be an issue, because all codexes should be equally powerful. I'm not accusing you of any wrongthink, I'm saying that the way the rules are released is wrong - as a group 40k players accept and plan around the idea that the new codexes are always better than the old.

**ph34r**

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I know you didn't say that. My point is that your comment implied that a codex had its day as the most powerful when it was new, and now it can be left to sink lower and lower in the rankings. And that's not ideal. It shouldn't even be an issue, because all codexes should be equally powerful. I'm not accusing you of any wrongthink, I'm saying that the way the rules are released is wrong - as a group 40k players accept and plan around the idea that the new codexes are always better than the old.

It was best back then because 4th edition came out and made it unstoppable.

**I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly**

Well, actually I think the eldar codex came along in 2006, after 4th edition (which was 2005). But that's a related issue - new rulebooks come along and turn the intended design of codexes (which were never that great to start with) on their heads, but we are all so used to this crocked system we just roll with it.

**CT GAMER**

Sidstyler wrote:So what you're saying is if GW did release a full-fledged Lost and the Damned army, you wouldn't buy it. So it would be a waste of their time to even try.

Having spent hundreds of dollars and hours on the one I built before that GW kindly nuked out of existance, yes I would have serious reservations.

OF course the allure of new plastic crack can be strong...

**ShatteredBlade**

CT GAMER wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:So what you're saying is if GW did release a full-fledged Lost and the Damned army, you wouldn't buy it. So it would be a waste of their time to even try.

Having spent hundreds of dollars and hours on the one I built before that GW kindly nuked out of existance, yes I would have serious reservations.

OF course the allure of new plastic crack can be strong...

I really hope they don't release a full-fledged Lost and the Damned army. The options, or similar options should be in a chaos 'Dex. I really don't want the game to turn into, Space Marines WITH SPIKES, Eldar WITH SPIKES and then Imperial guard WITH SPIKES!"

**ZeroSamurai**

If anything, the fact that we've heard most of these rumours before and are now hearing them from another source makes the rumours more reliable.

**Deathly Angel**

ShatteredBlade wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:So what you're saying is if GW did release a full-fledged Lost and the Damned army, you wouldn't buy it. So it would be a waste of their time to even try.

Having spent hundreds of dollars and hours on the one I built before that GW kindly nuked out of existance, yes I would have serious reservations.

OF course the allure of new plastic crack can be strong...

I really hope they don't release a full-fledged Lost and the Damned army. The options, or similar options should be in a chaos 'Dex. I really don't want the game to turn into, Space Marines WITH SPIKES, Eldar WITH SPIKES and then Imperial guard WITH SPIKES!"

I would really like to see a big focus on Lost and the Damned in the alledged Chaos Renegades book. This would differentiate it from the focus on Chaos Astartes in the Legions codex, and weakened chapters of originally 1000 - 1200 men gone rogue are not going to survive if they solely use Astartes in their operations. Renegade humans, mutants, degenerates and even xenos would be essential to a rogue chapter for its survival.

**Absolutionis**

Deathly Angel wrote:I would really like to see a big focus on Lost and the Damned in the alledged Chaos Renegades book.

The rumor going around is the the current Chaos Space Marines codex is the Chaos Renegades book and a supposed Chaos Legions book will flesh out the actual legions when it comes out.

**Deathly Angel**

Absolutionis wrote:
Deathly Angel wrote:I would really like to see a big focus on Lost and the Damned in the alledged Chaos Renegades book.
The rumor going around is the the current Chaos Space Marines codex is the Chaos Renegades book and a supposed Chaos Legions book will flesh out the actual legions when it comes out.

Ah yes, I've seen those rumours, but personally I really think that this would be impractical, as the Legions codex will render it obsolete if it isn't changed. IMO it will either be supplanted with a bigger, better CSM codex or updated, as it's lack of Chaos flavour will result in people basing their renegade chapters on the Legions book anyway. The Chaos codex is currently too outdated not to be changed alongside the Legions book, and five of its special characters are the 'big 5' from the original Legions as it is.

I still cling to the hope that it won't just be settled with a White Dwarf update.

**Pacific**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh great...

The thread at Whineseer wrote:The reply was that they were changing to try and do a single major release for as much as possible with only some Special Characters being delayed as they can be troublesome to get right. Ogre Kingdoms was used as the example of this.

Right, so after a couple of years of experimenting it we're abandoning the 'wave' release method and going back to the way it was for 3rd and most of 4th. Ok...

The thread at Whineseer wrote:He further elaborated that they won't be discarding and races, as they learnt from their mistake with Squats (and he did specifically call it a mistake) and that they realise now that "they can't pretend like things didn't exist".

*cough* Lost and the mother fething Damned *cough*

Although, it is possible to field a Lost & Damned style army (with, if anything, more variety) using the FW: Imperial Armour books. Although looking at the variety of people still lamenting the loss of Codex: eye of terror, I think those IA books are one of GW's best kept secrets :(

If anyone isn't aware, books 5-7 for the Chaos lists (basic, khorne and nurgle) and 9-10 function well for anyone wanting to mix power armour with Imperial guard. I think all in all there is a massive variety possible and if you use a bit of imagination.

**H.B.M.C.**

Yeah but it's not the same!!! (/whiney voice)

**Thelion1220**

Thanks OP! I find this rather more beleivable than most rumor posts, and would LOVE to see a Chaos Marines legion codex...if for no other reason than so I can hunt down Thousand Sons players and use all my Space Wolf skills to destroy them! Muahaha! Sad to see that you caught so much crap earlier from the Trolls and such. And also, if a CSM vs Marines box set came out, Id be first in line for sure. Like maybe using the DA and possibly one of the newly defined CSM legions from that said codex that may come out. I would love a box set that was evened out like that. ^.^

**ntin**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Only sort of ph34r. My problems with the 'wave' mentality for product releases was more a matter of how it was done rather than the concept itself.

Let me explain:

2nd Ed - There would be a 40K release of some sort every month. In most cases, except the months surrounding a Codex release, these releases were pretty much random. You never knew what was coming, which wasn't that much of a problem, but you never knew if something was coming, and that was an issue. So while it was great that one day GW decided to release a stack of Marine Librarian models to replace the aging Rogue Trader era models that were mostly unavailable at that stage, you were always left wondering things like "Will there ever be a Sentinel model?" or "I know there once was a Battle Wagon model... but will there ever be one again?"

The benefits of this were obvious - things got released all the time. The downsides were equally as obvious - there was never any guarantee that a particular model would ever get a release.

3rd Ed - This was the era of major splash releases and then bone-dry nothing for years at a time. Your Codex would come out, all the required models would come out***, but you better be happy with that because that's all you were getting until the next time they did your Codex.

The good side to this is that you were left with very few gaps (except Special Characters). The Dark Eldar, gak as the range was, had models for everything. The Tau and Necrons got models for every unit in their Codex. Tyranids got new creatures, and no gaps. It was wonderful... sort of. I mean, you would never get anything new for years, but at least you didn't have holes in your line***, right?

4th Ed - Pretty much the same as 3rd, except this time around we get a slow process of swapping metal kits, and especially metal/plastic hybrid kits, with full plastic kits.

End of 4th Ed/5th Ed through to now - Enter the wave!

Now rather than getting a big splash release that fills all the holes in the list, and gives models for anything new, we get wave releases. Ok, there are some really obvious benefits here - staggered releases over a longer period of time, which means that your army can always be assured to have something new over the next 18-24 months after the Codex's initial release. I can live with that, and it's far better than the model dump from 3rd/most of 4th.

Unfortunately, this concept immediately falls apart because it's GW that's enacting it. Instead of a steady stream of releases that fills the Codex's unit choices out as the months go buy we get longer and longer gaps between releases, and some things that just never get releases. We're essentially back to the way 2nd Ed was, only with less LOL-random fun and more "I'm happy to wait but I'd like to know if I'm ever going to get a Shrike/Wartrakk/[Insert missing Warhammer Fantasy choices here - probably something from the Beastman book]?"

And now they want to ditch that approach and go back to the unit-dump 3rd Ed method? It's swinging that pendulum again and avoiding a middle ground approach. If GW is good at anything it's the way and the amount of force they use to swing that pendulum. Applies to everything - fluff, rules, release schedules and methods, interactions with the fan base, and so on.

So I'll give credit where credit's due. Unit-dumps were kinda nice, at least initially, until the realisation that you were in an update wasteland for the next 4-6 years, and the wave system is a great concept (but was executed poorly).

Does that all make more sense now?

*** Orks are always the exception to this. For some reason they never get to have everything in their book no matter what edition they come from. I think the theory is that by 7th Edition they'll have a model for everything that's in the Codex today, but not necessarily everything that's in the Codex by 7th Ed.

I cannot recall comment on anything before 3rd edition but I feel you are leaving some things out.

3rd edition had Chapter Approved which brought new units into existing armies (Seekers of Slaanesh, Tau with Rail Rifles, et cetra) or variants on existing armies (Kroot Mercenaries, Feral Orks, et cetra).

There were also child codices like Eldar Craftworlds or Catachan, that could add another twist to your parent codex army.

Some armies also would receive errata to bring them into line with other armies by adjusting point costs or units (Dark Angels and Dark Eldar, codex).

Campaign books and other supplements brought more child armies into play Codex: Armageddon had the Salamander rule set and one of the Index Astares had the White Scars rule set (this may have been a White Dwarf reprint though).

Games Workshop also flirted with online play testing between the first and second, Codex: Chaos Marines in 3rd edition with trial rules on their website (I remember cultists mobs, and Rubric Marines immune to < S4 weapons).

Model wise a lot of this was up to you to convert but also at the time the GW website still had their bits section to help out.

**nosferatu1001**

ph34r - wave serpents didnt get a damage "reroll", as theycant take holofields. Youre thinking holofields + spirit + SMF. Also you could wreck them as a glancing "6" on the glancing table was Wrecked (i/.e. no boom) - so you needed a 6,6 to do it. Not sure where youre getting "6" being immobilised from ?

Holo's are worse than rerolls, from an opponents persepective, as you get to see both results and choose the lower, rather than getting a 3 and rerolling it to a 6, for example you see {3,6} and choose (well, have it chosen for you) the 3 result.

The ubiquitous flying circus army of 4th (triple falcon, triple harlie) exploited everything that was wrong about 4th eds way of working. Everything.

**Vermillion**

Well, I used falcons and still do because I like the model. Have done each army, same with vypers, admittedly not so much now, some rules just go against you too much.
Here's hoping they dont bump falcons up again and fire dragons and striking scorpions else people may cry cheese at me

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Deathly Angel wrote:
Ah yes, I've seen those rumours, but personally I really think that this would be impractical, as the Legions codex will render it obsolete if it isn't changed. IMO it will either be supplanted with a bigger, better CSM codex or updated, as it's lack of Chaos flavour will result in people basing their renegade chapters on the Legions book anyway. The Chaos codex is currently too outdated not to be changed alongside the Legions book, and five of its special characters are the 'big 5' from the original Legions as it is.

I still cling to the hope that it won't just be settled with a White Dwarf update.

I think that will be most likely though.

That or they will ignore the situation, just leave us with Legions and sometime down the road will pop up with, 'oh by the way here is the new Chaos Renegades book.' Traitor Guard in some form however would be very nice.

**Vermillion**

Combine CSM and guard cedexes, leave out any guard stuff that could be seen as requiring too much maintenence and not use anything too elite from CSM like defiler, terminators? *sobs for the LatD list now squatted*

**marmaduke**

thank you for the rumor OP

hope they are true now if only i knew how close that 6th edition is....hmm

anway legions sounds good as chaos is basically marines with spikey bits at this point

i will be keeping my fingers crossed

hope to hear more if you pick up any more info

**AesSedai**

You're welcome, Marmaduke.

According to my source, I was told 6th is "right around the corner" something like 2 codex's away (necrons, eldar OR necrons, DA OR even a combination of the three). Later, the same news appeared in the GD Aus. thread. According to that thread, 6th is coming next year.

**ph34r**

nosferatu1001 wrote:ph34r - wave serpents didnt get a damage "reroll", as theycant take holofields. Youre thinking holofields + spirit + SMF. Also you could wreck them as a glancing "6" on the glancing table was Wrecked (i/.e. no boom) - so you needed a 6,6 to do it. Not sure where youre getting "6" being immobilised from ?

Holo's are worse than rerolls, from an opponents persepective, as you get to see both results and choose the lower, rather than getting a 3 and rerolling it to a 6, for example you see {3,6} and choose (well, have it chosen for you) the 3 result.

The ubiquitous flying circus army of 4th (triple falcon, triple harlie) exploited everything that was wrong about 4th eds way of working. Everything.

Right, 6 to destroy, holofields + spirit stones + skimmer moving fast. Back then immobilization didn't kill you.

**I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly**

ph34r wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:ph34r - wave serpents didnt get a damage "reroll", as theycant take holofields. Youre thinking holofields + spirit + SMF. Also you could wreck them as a glancing "6" on the glancing table was Wrecked (i/.e. no boom) - so you needed a 6,6 to do it. Not sure where youre getting "6" being immobilised from ?

Holo's are worse than rerolls, from an opponents persepective, as you get to see both results and choose the lower, rather than getting a 3 and rerolling it to a 6, for example you see {3,6} and choose (well, have it chosen for you) the 3 result.

The ubiquitous flying circus army of 4th (triple falcon, triple harlie) exploited everything that was wrong about 4th eds way of working. Everything.
Right, 6 to destroy, holofields + spirit stones + skimmer moving fast. Back then immobilization didn't kill you.

Well, it did, (provided you were moving >6", which is what activated the 'glancing hits only' rule, but eldar have an upgrade that negates that. Yeah, it was a very annoying rules combination.

One thing that interests me is that army probably would not dominate today even if the same skimmer rules were in place. Harlequins are worse now because rending is worse, but more than that, recent codexes just have such gnarly assault units and access to good invulnerable saves that harlequins wouldn't be the game winners they once were. If the broken combination was still in place, I think it would be used the same way (downgraded) falcons are now, to keep scoring units alive.

**nosferatu1001**

ph34r - you said 6 was immobilised (as in, needed to immobilise it twice), yet a glancing 6 wasnt - that was glancing 5. Also skimmers WERE destroyed on an immobilised result if they were SMF, so they had to take yet another upgrade to stop that occuring if they wanted to - most lists i saw didnt bother.

Also waveserpents didnt (and dont) get holofields - youre mixing WS and Falcons up now. WS get the annoying energy field that my vindicare hates with a passion.

**ph34r**

nosferatu1001 wrote:ph34r - you said 6 was immobilised (as in, needed to immobilise it twice), yet a glancing 6 wasnt - that was glancing 5. Also skimmers WERE destroyed on an immobilised result if they were SMF, so they had to take yet another upgrade to stop that occuring if they wanted to - most lists i saw didnt bother.

Also waveserpents didnt (and dont) get holofields - youre mixing WS and Falcons up now. WS get the annoying energy field that my vindicare hates with a passion.

I literally just agreed with you. Read my post next time you feel the need to re-explain.

**CpatTom**

Agreeing is just disagreeing to disagree.

**nosferatu1001**

ph34r wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:ph34r - you said 6 was immobilised (as in, needed to immobilise it twice), yet a glancing 6 wasnt - that was glancing 5. Also skimmers WERE destroyed on an immobilised result if they were SMF, so they had to take yet another upgrade to stop that occuring if they wanted to - most lists i saw didnt bother.

Also waveserpents didnt (and dont) get holofields - youre mixing WS and Falcons up now. WS get the annoying energy field that my vindicare hates with a passion.
I literally just agreed with you. Read my post next time you feel the need to re-explain.

"back then immobilization didn't kill you. "

Yes it did, if you were SMF.

Additionally the Glancing table had a wrecked result on a 6, with immob on a 5. So if the Skimmer went fast, you could wreck it on a glancing 5 or 6.
You got some basic 4th ed rules wrong there, you didnt "literally just agree", you got some bits wrong. You also think that WS have holofields...

**MORA**

TL;DR......

Hope the focus on some armies besides marines...tired of fighting marines V marines or guard V SM. Getting a bit boring. Have to admit my lack of waiting to play has improved my painting skills