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In addition, by the way I read the rumored rule, If this Named Lord (who will probably be expensive points-wise) is killed, he wouldn't be around at the end of combat to activate his soul harvester, anyway! Yes it is powerful but it is not automatically a win vs orks, if you're in assault with orks you're probably dead anyway.

streamdragon wrote:Either way I was simply using it as an exaggerated example of a large unit that would lose a ridiculous number of models simply because of one wound. For another (more likely) example we'll take a 30 ork Boyz squad. 1 wound on a shoota/slugga boy would cause 20+ extra wounds on the squad, breaking it from a Fearless band of Ork boyz ready for some krumpin, to a squad about to get wiped out.

1 single wound.

Thank you for admitting it was exaggerated.

Nonetheless, 30 boyz are going to cost significantly less than this one character (and you could half their cost in theory as it's supposed to work on a 4+), whilst Yakface does also mention that it occurs after combat, so said character may have already been crumped...
I'm not saying it's a good rule - by any means - but I'm just trying to suggest it's not as overpowered as it may seem.

Just Dave wrote:

streamdragon wrote:Either way I was simply using it as an exaggerated example of a large unit that would lose a ridiculous number of models simply because of one wound. For another (more likely) example we'll take a 30 ork Boyz squad. 1 wound on a shoota/slugga boy would cause 20+ extra wounds on the squad, breaking it from a Fearless band of Ork boyz ready for some krumpin, to a squad about to get wiped out.

1 single wound.

Thank you for admitting it was exaggerated.

Nonetheless, 30 boyz are going to cost significantly less than this one character (and you could half their cost in theory as it's supposed to work on a 4+), whilst Yakface does also mention that it occurs after combat, so said character may have already been crumped...
I'm not saying it's a good rule - by any means - but I'm just trying to suggest it's not as overpowered as it may seem.

To be clear, I meant exaggerated in scale; it's a quite real (if unlikely) option in game.

From the way Yakface described the rule, it's 4+ for a unit not on a per model basis. It's also not impossible to protect characters in combat, either by limiting the models directly engaged with them or through simple high WS/T/W/AS. The ability for a single model to nearly single-handedly wipe out entire horde units is almost by definition ludicrous. One kill should not suddenly turn into 20 or more.

Again, I'm not saying it won't be in game, I'm not saying I wouldn't play against someone fielding that particular model just that said rule leaves my with a face we don't really have a good Orkmoticon for. It's one of those rules that I hear and my brain immediately files it under "stupid gak that makes me go back to fantasy". True, if said rule is on a model costing 400+ points (to use an exaggerated example) then it becomes a little less "ZOMG"ish by comparison, but it still sucks to be the Ork player who has to pick up almost entire units simply because of one model.

Cleansing flame and blood talons come to mind... Orks can still beat them because they are 6 FREAKING POINTS EACH!

streamdragon wrote:


Again, I'm not saying it won't be in game, I'm not saying I wouldn't play against someone fielding that particular model just that said rule leaves my with a face we don't really have a good Orkmoticon for. It's one of those rules that I hear and my brain immediately files it under "stupid gak that makes me go back to fantasy". True, if said rule is on a model costing 400+ points (to use an exaggerated example) then it becomes a little less "ZOMG"ish by comparison, but it still sucks to be the Ork player who has to pick up almost entire units simply because of one model.

Ork players often have to pick up entire units because of one model: LR Redeamer anyone? Thats not anywhere close to 400 points either!

Sir Harry Flashman, VC wrote:

streamdragon wrote:


Again, I'm not saying it won't be in game, I'm not saying I wouldn't play against someone fielding that particular model just that said rule leaves my with a face we don't really have a good Orkmoticon for. It's one of those rules that I hear and my brain immediately files it under "stupid gak that makes me go back to fantasy". True, if said rule is on a model costing 400+ points (to use an exaggerated example) then it becomes a little less "ZOMG"ish by comparison, but it still sucks to be the Ork player who has to pick up almost entire units simply because of one model.

Ork players often have to pick up entire units because of one model: LR Redeamer anyone? Thats not anywhere close to 400 points either!

Only if you're bunching your 30 orks up directly in front of the LRR! And he successfully wounds ALL of your orks! I mean, yeah, I hate to see that thing on the table, but we're not talking about 1 dude walking up, shanking 1 dude in the gut and then 20 more dudes falling dead. 1 dude. 1 dude much easier to protect than an LRR!

Unless your boyz have been bunched up for you. Tankshock is a wonderful, wonderful thing...

streamdragon wrote:

Sir Harry Flashman, VC wrote:

streamdragon wrote:


Again, I'm not saying it won't be in game, I'm not saying I wouldn't play against someone fielding that particular model just that said rule leaves my with a face we don't really have a good Orkmoticon for. It's one of those rules that I hear and my brain immediately files it under "stupid gak that makes me go back to fantasy". True, if said rule is on a model costing 400+ points (to use an exaggerated example) then it becomes a little less "ZOMG"ish by comparison, but it still sucks to be the Ork player who has to pick up almost entire units simply because of one model.

Ork players often have to pick up entire units because of one model: LR Redeamer anyone? Thats not anywhere close to 400 points either!

Only if you're bunching your 30 orks up directly in front of the LRR! And he successfully wounds ALL of your orks! I mean, yeah, I hate to see that thing on the table, but we're not talking about 1 dude walking up, shanking 1 dude in the gut and then 20 more dudes falling dead. 1 dude. 1 dude much easier to protect than an LRR!

I understand your trepidation, I play tyranids and I've seen every codex since them (and the few previous) have rules that completely shank my army. A friend and frequent opponent of mine is a notorious list-tailorer, and if he catches wind that i'm putting 'nids on the table I have zero chance of beating his dark eldar...though I think that codex is just geared towards killing infantry in general. Anyhow, I digress..

Necrons are slow, low initiative with no transports (currently). None of us know how much that will change with the new book. This new special character with this awesome killer rule might not work the way it is rumored...I'm not discrediting Yakface but we all saw how much the leaked playtest GK codex differed from the actually released one. It could be changed in a myriad of ways, none of which worth hypothesizing about here. My point? All of Mat Ward's cheesy, broken rules have counters. It won't be the end of the world. If you lose a squad of 30 boyz to this guy they didn't do their job by killing enough of his necron retinue, or waagh'ing a power klaw nob into his face. It'll probably only happen once, maybe twice, then you'll learn the counter. At least orks can still be competitive, unlike my beloved tau or nids at the moment (at least by me...maybe i just suck).

Everything will be okay.

streamdragon wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

streamdragon wrote:

yakface wrote:
Okay, a much more full description of the rule is like this:

This rule applies ONLY to the units the special Necron character is engaged with (it doesn't affect every model in the enemy army of the same type).

It happens after the Necron character has killed someone in combat and after all blows have been struck on both sides.

Roll a D6 for every type of model (friend or enemy) that the special character killed that turn. On a 4+ all other models in combat of that type take a wound (armor/inv saves can be taken as normal).

Example: If the Necron character kills an Ork Slugga boy in close combat and got the 4+ roll, all other Slugga boyz in the same combat would take a wound, but NOT the nob (as he's a different type of model). Any Shoota boyz, for example, in the same combat would be unaffected as well. If he killed a marine and got the roll, all other marines would take a wound, but not the vet sgt, etc.

It would seem that if this Necron was fighting against another Necron player, then he has the potential to hurt his own forces if the same type of units were facing off; if he was attached to a unit of warriors that was fighting against an enemy unit of warriors, for example.

So, basically one more reason to never take a Green Tide in Apocalypse, is what you're saying.

It still sounds completely ludicrous, as units with high model counts tend to have craptastical armor saves (lookin at you Ork Boys or Gaunts). One kill would suddenly have a 50/50 shot of wiping out (almost) the rest of the unit. That is beyond silly. Mind you I'm not saying it's impossible, but it does make me glad I've been switching more and more to Fantasy...

4 Words : Purple Sun Of Xerxes.

Will hit a template's worth of models. You might have just wanted two words: Dwellers Below. Either way, that's what Dispel Scrolls are for. I can't dispel scroll someone shanking one guy and then 100+ other boys falling dead :(

That could be made into a large template, and will go roaming around the field to eat up even more models.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless your boyz have been bunched up for you. Tankshock is a wonderful, wonderful thing...

Tank shock is the reason most of my Ork units now have 1 guy carrying a rokkit. Sure, he may get run over some/most of the time, but that once in a while he gets to stand in front of the burned out remains of some tank (usually a rhino) is brilliant.

tetrisphreak wrote:I understand your trepidation, I play tyranids and I've seen every codex since them (and the few previous) have rules that completely shank my army. A friend and frequent opponent of mine is a notorious list-tailorer, and if he catches wind that i'm putting 'nids on the table I have zero chance of beating his dark eldar...though I think that codex is just geared towards killing infantry in general. Anyhow, I digress..

Necrons are slow, low initiative with no transports (currently). None of us know how much that will change with the new book. This new special character with this awesome killer rule might not work the way it is rumored...I'm not discrediting Yakface but we all saw how much the leaked playtest GK codex differed from the actually released one. It could be changed in a myriad of ways, none of which worth hypothesizing about here. My point? All of Mat Ward's cheesy, broken rules have counters. It won't be the end of the world. If you lose a squad of 30 boyz to this guy they didn't do their job by killing enough of his necron retinue, or waagh'ing a power klaw nob into his face. It'll probably only happen once, maybe twice, then you'll learn the counter. At least orks can still be competitive, unlike my beloved tau or nids at the moment (at least by me...maybe i just suck).

Everything will be okay.

I shelved my Tyranids for Orks when the new book came out :( I've tried playing them a couple times since, but it rarely ends well.

Orks are also low iniative; if you can charge them with something fast (scarabs/wraiths/destroyers/what have you) you rob them of Furious Charge and their bonus charge attack, which really really hurts them. It also means you have a much easier time making sure the power klaw is stuck krumping rank and file and leaving your Big Bad Evil Necron Dude (BBEND) to pick off some lowbie grunt who then spreads death to his unit. I used 30 Orks as an example, but how about a 50 man IG Blob. Even adjusting for special weapons and heavy weapons teams, you're still looking at losing around half the blob to 1 attack. No amount of counter makes the rule itself not seem silly. Hordes use quantity in place of quality; this attack basically says "nuh-uh" to that. 15 lootas? Not anymore, 1 wound from the BBEND would leave the unit at ~2 models. Do Penal Legion (hah! like anyone uses them) even get an armor save?

Again, I'm not saying I won't play against necrons ever again. I'm not saying I'd start weeping tears of green fungi blood the moment he hits the table. I'm not even saying the sky is falling and Necrons will destroy everyone always. I'm just saying that the rule sounds stupid, and scales in stupidity.

To go for a silly large but possible example I return to the Green Tide. In my last Apoc game, I considered a 150 Ork green tide (plus warboss). Because of the wording, I could have 15 special weapons but only 1 nob. So 151 models total, with 134 of them being identical regular Boyz. It would not be difficult, in this instance, to keep the BBEND from getting Klawed in the face. Assuming he gets 1 wound through and survives (which again is a crux of the discussion, I agree) he would end up killing 112 total models on average. Granted, it's on a 4+, but a 4+ to wipe out over 100 models?

We'll see though. I have no real hatred for Mat Ward, beyond him being a craptastical fluff writer. His rules generally have their insane-ish outliers (looking at you Blood Angel Flying Land Raiders, anime-style chain linked rocket fists and insane Monstrous Creature Baby Caddy) but honestly? I'd rather have him writing books than Robin "Frell Your Non Imperial Guard Armies" Cruddace.

From Warseer

Originally Posted by http://www.warhammer-forum.com/index.php?showtopic=165478&st=473
From our French rumormonger 'Heinrich Kemmler' :

Quote
-nécrons et immortels en choix de troupes,
-svg 4+ pour les guerriers,
-2 variantes déquipements pour les immortels,
-équipes de snipers immortels,
-nombreuses variantes de parias avec des armes qui tuent la mère de la mort,
-2 kits qui font véhicules soutien / transport de troupes, dont un qui serai un mix entre une machine de la menace fantome/l'ancien raider eldar/ bateau égyptien de l'antiquité.
-des dépeceurs fc tout moche.
- Warriors and immortals are troops.
- save 4+ for the warriors
- 2 Variants of equipment for the immortals,
- sniper teams immortal
- Many variants of pariahs : one with weapons who kill the life...
- 2 Kits which are support vehicle / troop carrier, one of which will be a mix between a machine of The Phantom Menace / the old DEldar's raider / a boat of the Egyptian antiquity.
- fail cast flayers all ugly.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:That could be made into a large template, and will go roaming around the field to eat up even more models.

Which still scatters (even farther), allows an Init. test, can dissipate on its own, be dispelled, and can hilariously end up swarming over its casters models. I've played numerous shadow mages and only once had that spell even get successfully cast; I lost 3 clan rats. I'm much more afraid of mister "S test or die with no LoS for characters and it his your entire unit lols" Dwellers. (Though that could also have to do with being S3/I4 on clan rats...)

Still not dropping over 100 models in a single shot.

More and more nuggets are leaking out....I want a black box and codex in my store now, dammit! lol...

Nice addition there Red, cheers man! The vehicle sounds... Odd. I'm interested to see how the Sniper Immortals turn out considering the current sniper rules, whilst the pariah life-removing thing sounds... odd. but interesting!

------

That's been my point the whole time Steamdragon. Depending on how it's implemented it could well be a poor or poorly balanced rule, but it most likely won't be broken.
Your example of the 30 boys relies on A) the character not being dead, B) the character making it into combat with your boyz (necrons aren't exactly fast, nor are you stuck for good assaulting-targets), C) the character surviving the round of combat with 30 boyz, D) the 50/50 chance the power works and E) that he's actually worthwhile for more than killing ~6pts models.

Again, it doesn't sound broken, but I agree, it could be poorly balanced/implemented, or very hit/miss for different armies.
Ah well, moving on...

yakface wrote:
Example: If the Necron character kills an Ork Slugga boy in close combat and got the 4+ roll, all other Slugga boyz in the same combat would take a wound, but NOT the nob (as he's a different type of model). Any Shoota boyz, for example, in the same combat would be unaffected as well. If he killed a marine and got the roll, all other marines would take a wound, but not the vet sgt, etc.

Well, it isn't as overbearing (against nids) as what the OP suggested and at least it is a CC ability, which gives nids a better chance to dodge it all together -- though I guess this depends on what kind of transport options necrons get (example: if Crons get open top skimmers, then it's less likely to be dodged).

It still sounds kinda overbearing though (to nids) since it auto wounds all like models. Nids clutch units are genestealers, gargoyles, and spawned termaguants which run in large packs 14+ models (to absorb casualties from shooting/CC and still fight on), have no upgrades, and have horrible armour saves (5+ and 6+). You are pretty much wiping 2/3 to 5/6 of the survivors after which nids then take an even higher number of fearless wounds (which means that the units Nids rely on to fight on, won't).

To me this ability sounds much like JOWW. The vast majority of armies will just laugh it off, but nids will be hit overly hard.

Some items that might balance/alleviate this special ability:

high model cost

better, more desirable HQ choices

low Init

Power doesn't work if the IC dies

model is not allowed to join units

model is not allowed to ride in transports

I'm somewhat unsure about the pariah life removing..

.. but IIRC the Phase sword the Callidus is armed with now inflicts instant death on any successful wound regardless of T ( as well as being a power weapon of course).

Would be a reasonable enough hope guess ( usual GW caveats apply here of course) that the same weapon would work in the same way across the books.

I doubt we'll get any c'tan ignoring invulnerable saves, but maybe our aspects of c'tan can take an upgrade that requires all successful invulns to be re-rolled. That's probably the best we can hope for in that regard.

9 days until the 22nd, here's hoping the reveal is on the way!

reds8n wrote: I'm somewhat unsure about the pariah life removing..

.. but IIRC the Phase sword the Callidus is armed with now inflicts instant death on any successful wound regardless of T ( as well as being a power weapon of course).

Would be a reasonable enough hope guess ( usual GW caveats apply here of course) that the same weapon would work in the same way across the books.

Yeah, to me that would make sense (usual GW caveats apply here of course ) and would make the pariahs a usable unit, providing there's a suitable point decrease/rules improvement alongside it.

Just Dave wrote:That's been my point the whole time Steamdragon. Depending on how it's implemented it could well be a poor or poorly balanced rule, but it most likely won't be broken.
Your example of the 30 boys relies on A) the character not being dead, B) the character making it into combat with your boyz (necrons aren't exactly fast, nor are you stuck for good assaulting-targets), C) the character surviving the round of combat with 30 boyz, D) the 50/50 chance the power works and E) that he's actually worthwhile for more than killing ~6pts models.

Again, it doesn't sound broken, but I agree, it could be poorly balanced/implemented, or very hit/miss for different armies.
Ah well, moving on...

I agree with everything you've said here, and in other posts. I don't believe I've called it broken, though I suppose in context my calling it ludicrous may have seemed as good as, even if it wasn't meant to be. I also agree with the idea that there are numerous mitigators to the rule itself: the stats/cost of the model that gets it being first and foremost. The rule itself, to me, sounds stupid silly. 1 wound suddenly scaling into as many like models there are? Again, it doesn't have to be a 30 ork boyz unit. The above mentioned loota unit would lose 13 of 15 models. Entire Penal Legions, PENAL LEGIONS, wiped off the field!

On the other hand, wound shenanigans Ork Biker Nobz will sorta laugh at him as he frantically presses the button on his toy wondering why the Nobz aren't dying.

Agreed though, we'll see. If the BBEND is WS1, with I1, A1 and no armor/invulnerable save then obviously I won't be afraid of the rule (which will still be stupid silly ). Of course, he won't be, but you get my (overly exaggerated) point.

reds8n wrote:
weapons who kill the life...

I love this translation!

I fail to see how the "zomg super power" on one (probably expensive) character is going to be any worse than Cleansing Flame.

reds8n wrote:From Warseer

- 2 Kits which are support vehicle / troop carrier, one of which will be a mix between a machine of The Phantom Menace / the old DEldar's raider / a boat of the Egyptian antiquity.

Seeing will be believing.

Not sure how Fine-cast 'flayed ones' can be ugly... they are the same model and those models are ace!
TETO I guess...

JGrand wrote:I fail to see how the "zomg super power" on one (probably expensive) character is going to be any worse than Cleansing Flame.

It's not. Cleansing Flame is as bad (actually worse) than the described rule. It just means we have two silly rules!

edited to add quoted text! XD

Medium of Death wrote:

reds8n wrote:From Warseer

- 2 Kits which are support vehicle / troop carrier, one of which will be a mix between a machine of The Phantom Menace / the old DEldar's raider / a boat of the Egyptian antiquity.

Spoiler:

Seeing will be believing.

Not sure how Fine-cast 'flayed ones' can be ugly... they are the same model and those models are ace!
TETO I guess...

For the Star Wars Machine, think more on that glorious battlefield where many gungans were killed. The droid deployer tank.

Kurgash wrote:

For the Star Wars Machine, think more on that glorious battlefield where many gungans were killed. The droid deployer tank.

You mean..this?



That looks more like it suits Tau than 'Crons, to me.

I was thinking perhaps they would have a necron 'driving' it. Hence the bike, seems silly though, as most Necron vehicles should be self controlling.

You are probably right with the droid carrier.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

For the Star Wars Machine, think more on that glorious battlefield where many gungans were killed. The droid deployer tank.

You mean..this?



That looks more like it suits Tau than 'Crons, to me.

If you look at simply the image, sure.

But if you look at the concept it fits the Necrons quite well.

For those who didn't see "Phantom Menace", the MTT was packed wall to wall inside with Battle Droids. It would raise the central hatch, then extend a folding gantry within which would deploy something like a hundred Battle Droids.

Kanluwen wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

For the Star Wars Machine, think more on that glorious battlefield where many gungans were killed. The droid deployer tank.

You mean..this?



That looks more like it suits Tau than 'Crons, to me.

If you look at simply the image, sure.

But if you look at the concept it fits the Necrons quite well.

For those who didn't see "Phantom Menace", the MTT was packed wall to wall inside with Battle Droids. It would raise the central hatch, then extend a folding gantry within which would deploy something like a hundred Battle Droids.

Hmmm I guess it would make sense. The necrons are supposedly kept in stasis or something on their Tomb Worlds. But wouldn't they just have a vehicle to teleport them there?

That's likely what this would be, if I had to guess.

But rather than the portal being a great big exposed hole in the vehicle, it'd be concealed and opened when the troops are coming in.

Kanluwen wrote:That's likely what this would be, if I had to guess.

But rather than the portal being a great big exposed hole in the vehicle, it'd be concealed and opened when the troops are coming in.

Yeah, I can imagine that. As long as it doesn't actually carry soldiers, and instead does something akin to the monolith's portal ability, it should be fine.