Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:An interesting point.

There's another not-all-that-cheap board game that I got at the end of last year - Super Dungeon Explore. It's a great game, loads of fun, charm and character. It does not have snap-fit models. In fact, it has a lot of models made from hard plastic that requires super-glue to put together. And stuff. I've seen a lot of comments on how horrible putting together the miniatures was, and I myself nearly flew into a homocidal rage after putting mine together.

Board games really need to contain simple and easy to use miniatures. Even GW's starter sets, which aren't board games, manage to get this right. Space Hulk did as well. I've got FFG's DOOM and The Horus Heresy board games. The most complex thing out of those two things are the Cyberdemons - two pieces that join at the waist. Nothing near as bad as SDE and Dreadfleet.

Great post!

The core idea of a boxed game IMO is accessibility and portability. They are quickly accessible, self contained games that can be played anywhere over the course of 1-2 hours. The demographic that boxed games target is normally wider than that of the standard miniatures range. The general idea of a boxed game is that anyone should be able to quickly snap fit/assemble the models together and start playing straight away

In the case of boxed game miniatures that require clipping, filing, green stuffing, assembly, gluing, it defeats the purpose of a boxed game in that not only can the game not be played straight away but your creating a skill barrier as well (especially in the case of SDE where one also has to be capable of painting to Anime standards). In the case of Dreadfleet, not only was this was the case, one could also say that Dreadfleet was more of a “wargaming kit disguised as a boxed game”, rather than a “true boxed game” (as the rules weren’t quick and simplified to boxed game standards).

H.B.M.C. wrote:You could play it safe - Human, Orc, High Elf, Undead or even Human, Orc, Dark Elf, Dwarves.

Ohhh like a mix? I see

Well yeah. I wouldn't do a stand-alone Blood Bowl release without putting 4 teams in the box (otherwise what's the point?) just like I wouldn't do a Warhammer Quest re-release without putting 6-8 heroes in the box.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well yeah. I wouldn't do a stand-alone Blood Bowl release without putting 4 teams in the box (otherwise what's the point?) just like I wouldn't do a Warhammer Quest re-release without putting 6-8 heroes in the box.

Too many teams to hit the interest of buyer will up the cost of the game too much,
Not enough will not generate enough interest.

This is why i asked what fantasy army or faction can hold the weight anywhere close enough to Space Marines ( even if blood angels )

because they said SM account for 50% of GW income right? ( BA or not is still really high )

Besides , the Space Hulk BA are easily to remove the blood drops, after that its nicely posed + scene base.

Its harder for bunch of blood bowl atheletes to have poses fitting to be converted as easily into fantasy.

Also true - BB miniatures don't make fantastic Fantasy miniatures. Warhammer Quest miniatures do, which is why they should do that rather than BB.

Hmmm I would have to g oogle what Quest is

i am sure i have some models from that game lol

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Backfire wrote:For once, they released something which was not Space Marines, and were prompty reviled for it because people were expecting more Space Marines.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that “It wasn’t Marines” was not the reason people disliked Dreadfleet. It was more likely the absurd price point, disconnect with other product lines, and limited use or expansion factor. Yeah, not being a Marine release is going to be pretty far down on the list of Dreadfleet's faults.

I don't think Dreadfleet was at all overpriced for the contents. The ships are big and detailed enough to be used as display pieces, something you can't do with most boardgames.

When Space Hulk came out, there was EXACT SAME COMPLAINING about how expensive it was. But it sold out, because it was Space Marines.

Backfire wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Backfire wrote:For once, they released something which was not Space Marines, and were prompty reviled for it because people were expecting more Space Marines.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that “It wasn’t Marines” was not the reason people disliked Dreadfleet. It was more likely the absurd price point, disconnect with other product lines, and limited use or expansion factor. Yeah, not being a Marine release is going to be pretty far down on the list of Dreadfleet's faults.

I don't think Dreadfleet was at all overpriced for the contents. The ships are big and detailed enough to be used as display pieces, something you can't do with most boardgames.

When Space Hulk came out, there was EXACT SAME COMPLAINING about how expensive it was. But it sold out, because it was Space Marines.

I don't remember people complaining about the Space Hulk price but rather the opposite. 11+ terminator marines including a librarian and 25+ genestealers with a broodlord by themselves would run you almost double the sticker price of the board game if you got the multipose versions.

You've got to get over this Space Marine thing Backfire. It's killing your ability to think and act rationally.

Store staff member at GW Wellington NZ confirmed this. Including all of the unsold full Army boxes, they plan on reboxing them, so he told me, back in their respective box sets.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You could play it safe - Human, Orc, High Elf, Undead or even Human, Orc, Dark Elf, Dwarves.

That would be my desired choice. As in my opinion it would allow for the more iconic teams of the game straight out of the box.

Riekland Reavers, The Gouged Eye, Darkside Cowboys and Dwarf Giants.

They then give a greater amount of follow on options.

Human - Middenheim Marauders (or Marauders depending on NAF status) Bright Crusaders, Albion Wanderers, Creeveland Crescents
Orc - Orcland Raiders, War Hawks
Dark Elf - Naggaroth Nightmares (although I prefered the Nightwings name,) Khaines Killers, Dark Renegades
Dwarf - Dwarf Warhammerers, Worlds Edge Wanderers, The Grudge Bearers


Although if High elves where in there, I could take some solace by creating the Kallahir Swifts.

People who think Dreadfleet is overpriced should have a look at Spartan Games products.

DF comes with 10 ships, terrain, monster tokens, the gaming mat, a rule book and two card decks, for £70.

10 Uncharted Seas/Dystopian Wars battleships, which are about the size of the DF ships alone go for about £70-100.
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=spg_tus_ihm_shp_101_001
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=spg_tus_idw_shp_101_001
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=spg_dys_kob_nav_101_000

Add some terrain to that, for let's say £16.
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=cat&cre=min-tus-hob

Some sea monster for £10.
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=cat&cre=min-tus-smo

Rule book, £14 more.
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=spg_tus_ess_rbk_102_000

Two card decks, that's £6.
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=spg_tus_ihm_gcd_101_001

That's at least £116 (at Maelstrom discount prices) for the same amount of ships, less terrain, less monster miniatures and no gaming mat.
Imo. Dreadfleet is one of the very few reasonably priced GW products.

Except that Uncharted Seas/Dystopian Wars is an expandable wargame where one builds their forces, not a one-off boardgame. Both being based around 'ships' doesn't make them similar.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You've got to get over this Space Marine thing Backfire. It's killing your ability to think and act rationally.

The post which I made original reply specificially complained about release of Dreadfleet in lieu of a Space Marine figure, so I think I am pretty well on the map on this one, thank you.

And yes, there were plenty of complaints of Space Hulk being overpriced. Use search if you don't believe. Most complaints were akin the lines "I am not going to pay that much from a cardboard boardgame" or "it costs more than FFG games". Hmm, sound familiar?

Counter argument was that the figs would cost much more if bought separately, and apparently many people bought the game just for miniatures (granted, some probably wanted Genestealers). But that just proves my point .

I mean, lets be honest here, if GW had released just another wave of Nids and Space Marines or something whichs components could be used in one of their main games, there would be complaints how GW just concentrates on their main selling points and ignores Specialist Games and whatnot (cue whining over corporate mindset and maximising profits etc). You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Backfire wrote:I mean, lets be honest here, if GW had released just another wave of Nids and Space Marines or something whichs components could be used in one of their main games, there would be complaints how GW just concentrates on their main selling points and ignores Specialist Games and whatnot

Not really... ?

If that were the case, then wouldn't we see more "Oh! A new Ogre book? Why aren't they supporting Inquisitor!" or "Vampires again? What about Mordheim?". Except we don't hear that. Ever. At all. People have long since accepted that Specialist Games get nothing.

You're trying to find alternate reasons for Dreadfleet's failings when the failings have been explained clearly to you by several posters in this thread. Dreadfleet didn't fail because it wasn't Space Marines. It failed because it was Dreadfleet.

If only it was Space Marinefleet...

I was one of the ones bitching about how expensive Space Hulk was, but my brother helped chip in a little bit so at the time I only paid $80 for it, which kept it just far enough out of the triple digit range for me to cave and get it (and at that time it had already sold out online IIRC).

Backfire wrote:
When Space Hulk came out, there was EXACT SAME COMPLAINING about how expensive it was. But it sold out, because it was Space Marines.

Wrong.

It sold out because it was a REALLY FUN GAME, that had a lot of high quality materials (minis, boards, etc) in the box.

Jomini wrote:People who think Dreadfleet is overpriced should have a look at Spartan Games products.

(snip).

People who think Dreadfleet is overpriced should have a look at J-class Yacht Racing.

What, they both involve boats and are expensive, and therefore, are analogous, yes?

I felt far more satisfied by my Dystopian Wars purchases than I would by Dreadfleet. I paid £75 and got the rulebook and two boxes of ships to get started. I've heaps of little ships to paint now that make up into two rather nice looking fleets.

The Dreadfleet stuff just looks too random and incoherent. It's a different game of course where all the ships are supposed to be different, but Dystopian Wars has given me two very differently styled fleets and the prospect of much more to build on.

The cost of Dystopian Wars will be higher as I buy more obviously, but I think there's a lot more value in it.

Ouze wrote:

Jomini wrote:People who think Dreadfleet is overpriced should have a look at Spartan Games products.

(snip).

People who think Dreadfleet is overpriced should have a look at J-class Yacht Racing.

What, they both involve boats and are expensive, and therefore, are analogous, yes?

So all price comparisons between miniature companies are now invalid?

lord_blackfang wrote:So all price comparisons between miniature companies are now invalid?

No, just the ones between a board game and non-boardgames, IMO.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You could play it safe - Human, Orc, High Elf, Undead or even Human, Orc, Dark Elf, Dwarves.

I don't think you need to distinguish between the various Elf races for Blood Bowl. I'd settle for well scuplted generic Elves as the agile but fragile team. The other three would be Human (all rounders), Orcs (Strong, but less skilled) and either Undead or Dwarves (tough, but slow).

It makes a lot of sense to me that the games will be destroyed.

Even in large franchises and corporations, when a product is deemed unsellable it is destroyed rather than donated or discounted.

Even where I work, when a customer returns something "damaged" (the wrong colour for their living room) and we have to accept it so as to keep the customer happy so he/she will visit our stores again, we file an adjustment card to the head office and then break it completely, throwing it in the trash. We can't just give it away on the side because it damages the reputation of the chain and someone could return it again even without a receipt, effectively stealing money from the company.

Nightwatch wrote:It makes a lot of sense to me that the games will be destroyed.

Even in large franchises and corporations, when a product is deemed unsellable it is destroyed rather than donated or discounted.

Even where I work, when a customer returns something "damaged" (the wrong colour for their living room) and we have to accept it so as to keep the customer happy so he/she will visit our stores again, we file an adjustment card to the head office and then break it completely, throwing it in the trash. We can't just give it away on the side because it damages the reputation of the chain and someone could return it again even without a receipt, effectively stealing money from the company.

The GW store I used to pop into used to have an annual used and damaged product sale. Where they'd just sell things "as is" and you bought it with the understanding that it might have broken or missing pieces. In those days GW stores had more flexibility.

The simple reason GW won't discount or give away their product, is because they don't want customers to believe they'd ever do it again.

Backfire wrote:When Space Hulk came out, there was EXACT SAME COMPLAINING about how expensive it was.

The two main complaints about how expensive it was were A) price point and B) price of cardboard.

A) Price point, the problem with this complaint is that it completely ignored the contents of the game, the simple fact is these people complained it cost $100 not that it didn't give them a $100 worth of product. The simple counter arguement its cheaper than buy the miniatures separately. Even that ignores the inherent added value of a self contained game or set.

B) The other people who complained did so because the game used cardboard. First what fraction of boardgames use cardboard?-Most, so its at best a problem with the genre and not something unique to the product. Second, it was a high quality thicker printed carboard a material that is deceptively expensive, but most of these people who complained really just wanted plastic tiles. If GW had done that, it would have been a $200 kit and if you thought people complained about price regardless of content before at $200 stores would have been fire bombed.

The difference between Space Hulk and Dreadfleet boil down to one had an establish fan base the other did not. Space Hulk is immediately more accessible and you're right being about marines probably didn't hurt either. So while some people bought the kits for the BA minis, there were also alot of people who were such fans of the two preceding editions that bought multiple copies for themselves. Dreadfleet did not have the advantage of an established fan base or broad base appeal.

d-usa wrote:If only it was Space Marinefleet...

So BFG basically.

I always appreciated the fact that BFG didn't introduce Space Marines until right before it became a specialist game.

I think the most interesting question from all of this is---why did Dreadfleet fail (If it indeed did). From all I've heard (and seen);


The rules are solid and fun
The miniatures are terrific
The ocean mat looks great


So, provided all of those are true, I can really only think of three reasons it might have failed;


Poor product launch (Yes)
Poor pricing model (Yes)
Poor genre (While I'm not a Fantasy fan, I do recognize its popularity-I don't think this is a contributor)



So, Dreadfleet is priced 90 bucks and hyped for a good two months before hand--with tie in Fantasy landing scenarios = success?

So has it failed globally due to high prices or is it just not what gamers are looking for?
I actually thought it looked good during the demo game i saw
at my local GW,it was just the high cost(imo) and the fact not a lot of people seemed to be buying it in store.