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 FlingitNow wrote:

The "arrive sentence" also states "then deploy them as follows".

Exactly "then deploy" as in something you do next after arriving part of the sentence. So we're agreed deploying by the deep strike ruled is something you do after arriving by the deep strike rules. What does GoI tell us to do?

No, it's something you do after rolling for reserve. Both are part of arriving.
You seem to be confusing "arriving from reserve" with "arriving from Deep Strike".
To arrive via Deep strike you must make the reserve roll AND deploy. Deploying is part of arriving.
"Roll for the arival" is simply arriving from reserve, until you deploy as well you have not arrived via Deep Strike.

And since GOI removes to reserve roll, in order to arrive via Deep Strike you must "arrive immediatly" and then "deploy as follows".

No, it's something you do after rolling for reserve. Both are part of arriving.

Citation.

To arrive via Deep strike you must make the reserve roll AND deploy. Deploying is part of arriving.

Again you need a citation because the DS rules strongly disagree with this statement. Deployment is a requirement imposed on anyone arriving. It is something you must do AFTER arriving as stated in the DS rules. Just as rolling to wound is something you must do after hitting in the shooting phase both are part of shooting but rolling to wound is not part of hitting. For instance if you have an effect that "immediately causes a S6 AP- hits on a FMC using the shooting rules" would cause you to roll to would, however you have not rolled to hit yet it would trigger a grounding test...

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, it's something you do after rolling for reserve. Both are part of arriving.

Citation.

Seriously?

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

Deployment is a requirement imposed on anyone arriving

So you can't arrive until you've deployed? Excellent, finally you're getting there. Thank you for admitting that deploying is part of arriving from Deep Strike.
Deployment is indeed part of arriving. Not only does the first sentence of "Arriving from Deep Strike" tell us this... but so does the very name of the rule.

It is something you must do AFTER arriving as stated in the DS rules. Just as rolling to wound is something you must do after hitting in the shooting phase both are part of shooting but rolling to wound is not part of hitting.

No, but it's still part of shooting. Reserve roll and deployment are part of arrivng from deep strike.

I don't know how you cherry pick the sentence in such a bizzare way.
You admit that the reserve roll is bypassed, but that it somehow must still be used (a complete contradiction).
You've said many times the first sentence is "arriving" but you then later want toskip the last part of the sentence.
So if the first part is bypassed and the second part ignored... there's no sentence left... but somehow they're magically in reserve, despite reserve being bypassed.

The First sentence is arriving, that includes deploy. You've already addmitted the reserve roll is bypassed (yet why you continue to then refer to it is beyond reason).
So with GOI, arriving from Deep Strike is as follows:

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves Immediatley arrive and then deploy them as follows:

Deployment is a requirement imposed on anyone arriving. It is something you must do AFTER arriving

So see the contradiction in this statement? If it's a requirement, it can't happen after can it? The requirement must be fulfilled before the event can be complete.
And if it is a requirement of arriving, then it is infact part of arriving.

Requirement on not of. Models arriving by the deep strikes rulesaare required to deploy by the deep strike rules. Just as models rolling to hit with the shooting rules are required to roll to wound.

I also noted you said seriously after being asked for a citation and have failed to provide one (you did bizarrely post a rule that says the opposite of what you where being asked to cite).

The rule is called Deep Strike. "Arriving by Deep Strike" is merely a title for a section within that rule.

Basically you disagree that GoI requires you to use the part of the deep strike rule that governs arrival and instead only use the parts that govern deployment. This is contradictory to what GoI tells us to do.

We know:

1) We must arrive using the DS rules
2) The DS rules defines arriving as successfully making a Reserves roll.

Since the BrB is cast iron on those two facts you have literally no case. If you disagree with either of those 2 statements please admit that you are not arguing RAW because I have repeatedly proven those two statements are true RAW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) The DS rules defines arriving as successfully making a Reserves roll.

First point: GOI overrides the reserve roll. It isn't taken. So the unit isn't arriving from reserve.
Second point: Deep Strike defines arriving as taking a reserve roll and then deploying.

You asked for citation, I proved it. It says right in the sentence about arriving "and then deploy as follows."
You can choose to ignore this part of the sentence all you like. But it's right there.

Since the BrB is cast iron on those two facts you have literally no case. If you disagree with either of those 2 statements please admit that you are not arguing RAW because I have repeatedly proven those two statements are true RAW.

I have an exceptionally strong case thank you. And it's very much RAW. Your arguments have been disproven at every turn. You've made up rules on two occasions. Your statements contradict each other constantly.
You are not arguing RAW. You are not arguing RAI. You're just arguing. With invented rules and ignored sentences.

Due to the wording of GOI, all references to Reserve are overridden. Not used. Yet you continue to refer to them.

Deploying by Deep Strike is part of Arriving by Deep a Strike.
Until a unit has deployed, it has not fully arrived.
You can keep claiming that deploying is not part of arriving, but this is flat out wrong. The "Arriving from Deep Strike" rule is very clear on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Basically you disagree that GoI requires you to use the part of the deep strike rule that governs arrival

I'd just like the further clarify the main mistake you're making.
"that governs arrival"
Arrival from what? That part of the sentence governs arrival from Reserve.
We are attempting arrival from Deep Strike.
You're confusing the two.

To arrive from Deep Strike you must arrive from reserve and deploy as instructed.

2) The DS rules defines arriving from reserve as successfully making a Reserves roll.

Fixed point 2 for you.

Actually, FlingItNow, you are ignoring the first two fundamental requirements of Deep Strike: 1) In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule 2) The unit must start the game in reserve.

In addition to the GOI power, the GK Librarian's Summoning rule states "the chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules"

In both the GOI and Summoning rules, the first two requirements of the Deep Strike rule are ignored without any permission to do so. Chosen units don't have to have the Deep Strike Special ability nor do they have to start the game in reserve. Therefore, how can you continue applying additional Deep Strike rules, when the fundamental requirement to Deep Strike has not been met? There must be implicit permission to ignore these two requirements for both these rules and other special rules that reference Deep Strike.

Both GOI and Summoning state remove from the table. One assumption is that the unit goes into reserves. The other camp assumes the unit does not go into reserves. Either could be right. But, since you don't apply the fundamental Deep Strike rules, you must consider that other requirements of the Deep Strike rules may not apply either.

Units that enter reserves part way through the game are by definition Ongoing Reserves. By definition, units re-entering from Ongoing Reserves must enter on their controller's players following turn, not the current turn. This lends credence that the units do not enter reserves.

First point: GOI overrides the reserve roll. It isn't taken. So the unit isn't arriving from reserve.
Second point: Deep Strike defines arriving as taking a reserve roll and then deploying.

You asked for citation, I proved it. It says right in the sentence about arriving "and then deploy as follows."

Thank you for disproving your own argument. You are now just arguing for the sake of it. We both now know my interpretation is correct RAW as you're quoting the RAW that is on my side. "and then deploy" is exactly what it says and illustrates this is a new action you do after arrival. The fact that you think that and then means this occurs at the same time and is part of the first action illustrates that your argument has no founding at all.

Brian:

Actually, FlingItNow, you are ignoring the first two fundamental requirements of Deep Strike: 1) In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule 2) The unit must start the game in reserve.

Yes I am as I am instructed to do so by GoI. I am instructed to arrive by the deep strike rules. This means I skip to the past about arriving (not skip to the part after arriving about deployment as Grendel claims).

You then witter on about whether units get placed in reserve. I have never stated units get placed in reserve in fact I've stated the exact opposite on numerous occasions.

Please read the Deep Strike and GoI rules. These 2 facts will then become apparent:

1) GoI tells us to arrive using the DS rules (not deploy as Grendel claims but arrive).
2) DS rules tell us arriving is making a success reserves roll.

Therefore if you are arriving by the deep strike rules you are arriving from reserve. This is true despite the fact you are never placed in reserve (you are never told to do so). It allows you to use Farsight's warlord trait but it also triggers IBEY. Take the rough with the smooth.

Regardless of how anyone interprets the RAW, the RAI is that they arent leaving the table and going into reserves, they just teleport from point a to point b. coteaz no worky.

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) DS rules tell us arriving from reserve is making a success reserves roll

Fixed that for you.

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing. You've been proven wrong. You're just arguing for the sake of it, nothing in your post was even slightly correct. You're done here.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
2) DS rules tell us arriving from reserve is making a success reserves roll

Fixed that for you.

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing. You've been proven wrong. You're just arguing for the sake of it, nothing in your post was even slightly correct. You're done here.

The DS rules don't tell us what arriving from reserves is the Reserves rules tell us that. The DS rules tell us what arriving by deep strike is.

The rest I'd simply bizarre. Is this a bluff? Literally everything I have said is supported by the rules where as you think that GoI only uses the deploying by deep strike rules despite it telling you it uses the arriving by deep strike rules. You also believe that when a rule tells you one action is A and then do B that means A=B which is just nonsense.

Please clearly label your arguments as RaI or The Rules they are not RAW. If you want to discuss the RaI I am happy to do so. But RAW here is clear and you either know that or you can't comprehend what I've said in either case there is no point going on.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The DS rules don't tell us what arriving from reserves is the Reserves rules tell us that. The DS rules tell us what arriving by deep strike is.

Deep Strike tells us that arriving from deep strike is:
1). Arrivng from reserve, then
2). Deploying as specified

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

There are two forms of arrival in use here.
Arrival from Reverve
Arrival from Deep Strike

You would have us believe that:
"arrival from Deep Strike" == "arrival from Reserve"
That they are the same. That arriving from deep strike is simply a reserve roll.
This is simply wrong, theyre not the same.

"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units" arrival from where?
"as specified in the rules for Reserves" p124 tells us this is Arriving from Reserve.

So we have "arrive from Reserve" and then deploy them as follows:
Now we are not arriving from reserve but instead "arrive immediatley" thanks to GOI.

Your claim that "arrive from deep strike" is the same as "arrive from reserve" is simply wrong.
Arrive from Deep Strike is Arrive from reserve AND THEN DEPLOY.

You can continue to ignore that part of the Deep Strike rule all you like, but your arguement still fails.

Literally everything I have said is supported by the rules

Litterally everything you've said has been shown as incorrect time and time again. You've become so stubborn you're not even looking at the rules, and instead keep repeating the same broken arguement.
You've admitted GOI bypasses reserves, but continue to refer to it. A complete contradiction.

Please clearly label your arguments as RaI or The Rules they are not RAW. If you want to discuss the RaI I am happy to do so. But RAW here is clear and you either know that or you can't comprehend what I've said in either case there is no point going on.

Please lable your arguements as "made-up". That's all they are. I've proven they're not RAW, they're definitley not RAI, they're a work of fiction.

"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units" arrival from where?
"as specified in the rules for Reserves" p124 tells us this is Arriving from Reserve.

Exactly arriving by the deep strike rules is arriving from reserve as you've just proven.

So we have units arriving by deep strike "arrive from Reserve" and then deploy them as follows:

Fixed that for you. And as we agreed that arriving in the deep strike rules is arriving from reserve and that deploying is something we do after (and then deploy), what we need to know now is where in that sentence does GoI tell us to get involved. Is it at the deploy part or the arrive part?

Seriously you're proving your own argument wrong. Is this just trolling or are you actually on my side and trying to illustrate how baseless the opposite argument with what I can only conclude is deliberately sarcastic arguments.

 FlingitNow wrote:
arriving by the deep strike rules is arriving from reserve

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong.

Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve AND deploying. The rules are very clear on this.

I'll ignore your insults about trolling and your constant twisting of my words to justify your clearly inncorect arguement.
Fortunatly anyone else reading the thread or looking at the actual rules will see how very wrong you are.

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong

Yet you yourself have proven this to be true. So claiming I've been "shown enough times this is wrong" is either massively delusional or an outright lie.

 FlingitNow wrote:

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong

Yet you yourself have proven this to be true. So claiming I've been "shown enough times this is wrong" is either massively delusional or an outright lie.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

The part you continue to ignore.

The rules have shown you inncorrrect, and now you're resorting to more personal insults.
I'm a liar now? and dilusional? Any more insults?

I'd respectfully suggest you calm down, and avoid posting for a while. Hopefully you'll find your manners during that time.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

False, but please continue to ignore rules and make your own up. You've been shown enough times this is wrong

Yet you yourself have proven this to be true. So claiming I've been "shown enough times this is wrong" is either massively delusional or an outright lie.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

The part you continue to ignore.

The rules have shown you inncorrrect, and now you're resorting to more personal insults.
I'm a liar now? and dilusional? Any more insults?

I'd respectfully suggest you calm down, and avoid posting for a while. Hopefully you'll find your manners during that time.

This is exceedingly clear.

For IBEY, the target unit must be arriving from reserves.
A unit using GOI at the start of the turn is on the table, and not in reserves.
Nothing in the GOI wording instructs us to place the unit in reserves.
IBEY cannot be used on a unit using GOI within 12" of coteaz.

This is how RAW works. The rule must be in writing. GOI is an exception to normal DS rules. Normal DS rules require the entire unit to have the DS USR. GOI must be an exception to this or else it would be unusable. Normal DS rules require the unit to be reserved. GOI must be an exception to this because the unit using the power is on the table.

The reason why the "YMDC A-team" is largely silent on this matter is that FlingItNow has his own personal defitnition of RAW which is contradictory to the definition everyone else uses. Several prolific rules experts even have him on ignore because of past discussions.

There's a reason FlingItNow is the only person debating that IBEY works against GOI. I would wager an entire army that if this thread had a RAW poll, 80%+ would say it cannot be used against GOI.

Let him say what he wants, there's no rule or popular belief support of his stance.

You're right, only myself to blame.
The rule was clear on page 1 of the thread, I should have left it there instead of trying to explain a mistake.

The part you continue to ignore.

How do I ignore that part? You ignore that it says "and then deploy". Thus this is a new action done after whatever the first part of the sentence is talking about, which of course is arriving. So deploying by the deep strike rules is something you do after arriving by the deep strike rules.

As for why Rigeld has me on ignore it is because he doesn't like that I think the rules were designed by the GW design team and strongly disagrees with the idea that the GW design team designed the rules.

There's 2 ways to be placed in reserves. Held in reserve at the beginning of the game, or have a special rule that allows you to enter ongoing reserves.

A unit using GOI has neither.

Can you quote the part of GOI that instructs us to place the unit into reserves?

You cannot use the deep strike rule, because GOI is an exception to the prerequisites. Deep strike requires all models to share that USR, and requires the unit to be held in reserve. GOI allows us to bypass both of those requirements otherwise the psychic power would not work. GOI never instructs us to place the unit in reserve.

Have you read the thread? All your questions are clearly answered multiple times. Nothing you have said is contra to the RAW I am telling people about.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Have you read the thread? All your questions are clearly answered multiple times. Nothing you have said is contra to the RAW I am telling people about.

Yes in fact. But just for posterity, re-quote the part of GOI that instructs us word for word to place the unit into reserve. Hint: it's not there.

Guys, guys. There is no need to bicker, This s easy to figure out.

Gate of Infinity does not work.
You arrive from Deep Strike. Thus you arrive from Reserve. However you are never given permission to place the unit in reserve, so the unit cannot ever come back in. And the unit is lost (and counts as destroyed at the end of the game).


Interestingly enough, an embarked unit at the end of the game would count as destroyed in Purge the Alien.

... Indeed... Very helpful.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
... Indeed... Very helpful.

I try. Oh how I try.

Whilst the rules does not work or does nothing is a valid RAW answer in some cases. It is not true here we are told to arriving immediately from reserve so it does not matter if we are ever placed there.

Really I should point out that the rule never says you arrive immediately from reserve, but what's the point?
You wouldn't listen. The sky is purple even if I proved it was blue.

Fling appears to be trying to generate two rules out of that single sentence - and is saying "deploy..." is then a specifc action unto itself.

It isnt.

Or I'm just reiterating the argument of why the old GoI from the SM codex didn't work with the Farsight warlord trait (that arriving by deep strike and deploying by deep strike are too distinct things as the rules tell us). An argument I'm fairly certain Nos and Rigeld were on the side of GoI not working with Farsights warlord trait...