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Seriously. Please stop saying this. I've corrected you enough times on this.

You've still not understood what I've said.

See that underlined part? That is correct.
But you stated with your "modified rule" that the reserve rules state the opposite. They don't.

No a modified rule states that you arrive by the reserve rules "immediately" not that the reserve rules say anything about immediately.

The part that talks about arriving from reserve is not even used. You're trying to cheery pick words out of a sentence, to turn a rule into something it isn't.

And in the very post where you "corrected [me] enough times on this" you again go on to claim the unit isn't arriving by deep strike. So which is it. Are we arriving by deep strike in which case the half sentence, that is the only thing that defined what arriving by deep strike is, is used other wise we are not arriving by deep strike but deploying by it. Given you don't understand clear statements I am making or even your own argument I advise you calm down read the rules and the entire thread again and then try to disprove one of my two premises or concede.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Seriously. Please stop saying this. I've corrected you enough times on this.

You've still not understood what I've said.

Oh I understand. You're just incorrect. You do arrive via Deep Strike. You don't arrive from Reserve.

See that underlined part? That is correct.
But you stated with your "modified rule" that the reserve rules state the opposite. They don't.

No a modified rule states that you arrive by the reserve rules "immediately" not that the reserve rules say anything about immediately.

That's not what your "modified" rule said, is it?
This is your modified rule:
"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."
The Reserve rules do not specify the unit arrives immediately. Your made up modified statement is false.
You're twisting a sentence to fit your own belief, and it simply doesn't work.

The part that talks about arriving from reserve is not even used. You're trying to cheery pick words out of a sentence, to turn a rule into something it isn't.

And in the very post where you "corrected [me] enough times on this" you again go on to claim the unit isn't arriving by deep strike. So which is it. Are we arriving by deep strike in which case the half sentence, that is the only thing that defined what arriving by deep strike is, is used other wise we are not arriving by deep strike but deploying by it. Given you don't understand clear statements I am making or even your own argument I advise you calm down read the rules and the entire thread again and then try to disprove one of my two premises or concede.

The part of the rule that covers arriving from reserve is not used. It's been shown many times.
You keep trying to twist that one sentence to keep it in there, and break rules in the process.
I can understand clear statements very well thank you, I can also spot an incorrect one.

Now the only sentence in "arriving from Deep Strike" which hints that the unit is arriving from reserve is this one:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy"
You've dodged this question continuously: Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve?

or concede.

This is getting both tiresome and childish. No I will not concede. Your interpretation is incorrect, and even worse, can give others reading this thread an incorrect view on this rule.

You do arrive via Deep Strike. You don't arrive from Reserve.

Which of course is impossible as has been proven. This is a debunked theory. Drop it or support it.

That's not what your "modified" rule said, is it?
This is your modified rule:
"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."
The Reserve rules do not specify the unit arrives immediately. Your made up modified statement is false.
You're twisting a sentence to fit your own belief, and it simply doesn't work.

Please read what you just said because there is no logic to it. The reserve rules don't need to tell us to arrive immediately. They just need to tell to arrive. GoI tells us that we do this immediately instead of rolling. Why can't you understand this simple statement?

The part of the rule that covers arriving from reserve is not used.

Once again stating you are not arriving by deep strike. GoI disagrees with you.

Now the only sentence in "arriving from Deep Strike" which hints that the unit is arriving from reserve is this one:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy"
You've dodged this question continuously: Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve?

That is the only sentence that covers arriving by deep strike after that you are deploying by deep strike. I have actually answered that question already. No need to answer again.

This is getting both tiresome and childish. No I will not concede. Your interpretation is incorrect, and even worse, can give others reading this thread an incorrect view on this rule.

Well your interpretation revolves around the unit not arriving by deep strike despite GoI telling you it does and that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves despite the DS rules telling you it is. Sorry but an interpretation that is based on ignoring both the rules in question is the one that is not correct.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Which of course is impossible as has been proven. This is a debunked theory. Drop it or support it.

You claim it has been debunked. You havn't proven it. Your debunk was debunked.

Please read what you just said because there is no logic to it. The reserve rules don't need to tell us to arrive immediately. They just need to tell to arrive. GoI tells us that we do this immediately instead of rolling. Why can't you understand this simple statement?

No logic? This is your statement. I'm showing why it's wrong. You are unable to back this statement up.

Once again stating you are not arriving by deep strike. GoI disagrees with you.

Once again. That's not what i'm stating. This will be explained bellow... once again.

Now the only sentence in "arriving from Deep Strike" which hints that the unit is arriving from reserve is this one:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy"
You've dodged this question continuously: Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for reserve?

That is the only sentence that covers arriving by deep strike after that you are deploying by deep strike. I have actually answered that question already. No need to answer again.

Please give me the page number for the rule "deploying by deep strike" that you keep refering to?
Page 36 has a rule called "arriving by Deep Strike". This is the rule I'm saying you use. The rule you (incorrectly) say i'm not using.
The first sentance of this rule does not, cannot apply when using GOI. It is still the rule "Arriving by Deep Strike". You still follow this rule.
The rule you keep refering to "deploying by deep strike" does not exist.

And the answer to that question above is "No, you are not rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserve. Therefore you are not using the rules for Reserve. Therefore you are not, cannot be arriving from Reserve".

Well your interpretation revolves around the unit not arriving by deep strike despite GoI telling you it does and that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves despite the DS rules telling you it is. Sorry but an interpretation that is based on ignoring both the rules in question is the one that is not correct.

Your interpretation ignored the GOI rules. Your assumption that I am not using the "Arriving from Deep Strike" rule is false.
Your interpretation is using a rule that we are told not to use.
In short: Incorrect.

Please give me the page number for the rule "deploying by deep strike" that you keep refering to?
Page 36 has a rule called "arriving by Deep Strike". This is the rule I'm saying you use. The rule you (incorrectly) say i'm not using.

Page 36 first paragraph under the title "Arriving by Deep Strike". As has been pointed out in this thread. Please read that rule. It tells you what arriving by deep strike is and what deploying by deep strike is. They are two distinct things that you keep confusing. One is done after the other.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Please give me the page number for the rule "deploying by deep strike" that you keep refering to?
Page 36 has a rule called "arriving by Deep Strike". This is the rule I'm saying you use. The rule you (incorrectly) say i'm not using.

Page 36 first paragraph under the title "Arriving by Deep Strike". As has been pointed out in this thread. Please read that rule. It tells you what arriving by deep strike is and what deploying by deep strike is. They are two distinct things that you keep confusing. One is done after the other.

That is still the rule: "Arriving by Deep Strike", correct?
There is no seperate rule called "Deploying by Deep Strike".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BRB p36 " Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start in Reserve

This shows us there are two requirements to Deep Striking.
Question 1). The Unit must have the Deep Strike Rule
Question 2). The unit must start the game in Reserve.

BRB p422 "Gate of Infinity wrote:Gate of Infinity is a Blessing that targets the Psyker and his unit...
... Remove the target unit from the board. It then immedediatley arrives unsing the rules for Deep Strike..

Answer 1). Ability is effecting the entire unit. Requirement met.
Answer 2). Unit is not in Reserve, but on the table. Rule says use this anyway. Requirement bypassed.

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
* First, place....

Question 3). Roll for the arrival of the reserved unit as specified in the rules for reserves.
Question 4). Deploy them as follows

BRB p422 "Gate of Infinity wrote:Remove the target unit from the board. It then immedediatley arrives unsing the rules for Deep Strike..

Answer 3). The unit was not in Reserve (see answer "2"), but instead arrives immediatley. You cannot "Roll for the arrival as specified in the rules for Reserve".

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves Arrive immediatley and then deploy them as follows:
* First, place....

Answer 4). Deploy them as follows.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Deep Strike rules at no point ever say a unit is in reserve.
It requires that the unit start in reserve.
It requires that you roll for reserves.
Two requirements that are bypassed by GOI.

Per your interpretation of the rules, grendel083, Mordrak is not arriving from reserves via his ability because no roll is made. Not a correct statement.

If the models are removed from the table before deep striking back on to the table, where are the models before they arrive? To answer this, look at the Deep Strike Mishap Table. Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent? Oh, that's right, back in Reserve. How does a unit that started on the table get placed 'back into reserves"? By being removed from the table before returning via deep strike.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per your interpretation of the rules, grendel083, Mordrak is not arriving from reserves via his ability because no roll is made. Not a correct statement.

If the models are removed from the table before deep striking back on to the table, where are the models before they arrive? To answer this, look at the Deep Strike Mishap Table. Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent? Oh, that's right, back in Reserve. How does a unit that started on the table get placed 'back into reserves"? By being removed from the table before returning via deep strike.

Read the rules for Embarking please, page page 78.
"Remove it from the table"
Are you suggesting that every model not on the table must be dead or in reserve? The rules disagree.
By your definition, every embarked unit is in Reserve.

Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent

Ongoing Reserve, in the event of a mishap only. Has a mishap occured? Is there any reason to place it in Ongoing Reserve? No and No.
This rule really isn't saying what you think/want/hope it's saying.

FlingitNow: I think the problem here is that a strict reading of the Deep Strike rules (which only apply to models coming in from reserves, yes) is not really applicable to a unit that arrives 'as if from a deep strike'.

To me, reading something like that (as if from...), means I would suspend the precursory rules, as GoI overwrites them, then carry on using the deep strike rules as of the time models are placed in their new location (so, they count as already having moved, cannot assault, etc)

The Deep Strike rules at no point ever say a unit is in reserve.
It requires that the unit start in reserve.
It requires that you roll for reserves.
Two requirements that are bypassed by GOI.

While I agree with this. It is irrelevant. The rules tell you what arriving from deep strike is (roll for the arrival of deep striking unit as specified in the rules for reserves) it also tells us what happens after we arrive by deep strike (then deploy them as follows).

You keep on confusing deploying by deep strike and arriving by deep strike. Yet the rules tells is they are two distinct things that occur in a specified order. If you are arriving by deep strike you are by definition arriving from reserve. Just as models using DWA or Mordraks ability or are arriving after turn 3 don't roll they are still arriving from reserve. GoI is just another rule that over rides the roll. It does not say we are not coming from reserve it does not say deploy by deep strike thus bypassing arriving from reserve as you claim. It says we are arriving by deep strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:
While I agree with this. It is irrelevant. The rules tell you what arriving from deep strike is (roll for the arrival of deep striking unit as specified in the rules for reserves) it also tells us what happens after we arrive by deep strike (then deploy them as follows).

Arriving from deep strike is that entire rule, not just the first sentence of it. Even if you ignore the first 3 paragraphs, the rule is still "Arriving from Deep Strike", it never becomes "deplying from Deep Strike", that rule does not exist, it is simply a description of what you do while following the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
You can't point out this rule in the rulebook, because you are just refering to "Arriving from Deep Strike".

You keep on confusing deploying by deep strike and arriving by deep strike. Yet the rules tells is they are two distinct things that occur in a specified order.

It's all under one rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
They are not two seperate rules, mearly two parts of the same rule.

If you are arriving by deep strike you are by definition arriving from reserve.

Wrong. It's a requirement that you start the game in reserve, and a further requirement that you make the reserve roll. Two requirements not needed when using GOI. The Deep Strike rules never define the unit as being in Reserve.

Just as models using DWA or Mordraks ability or are arriving after turn 3 don't roll they are still arriving from reserve.

They are required to be in Reserve. They don't have a rule bypassing this requirement as there is in GOI.

GoI is just another rule that over rides the roll. It does not say we are not coming from reserve it does not say deploy by deep strike thus bypassing arriving from reserve as you claim. It says we are arriving by deep strike.

Yes it Overrides the requirements, I've proven this.
And yes they arrive via Deep Strike. Deep Strike does not define the unit as being in Reserve, but requires it.

Arriving from deep strike is that entire rule, not just the first sentence of it. Even if you ignore the first 3 paragraphs, the rule is still "Arriving from Deep Strike", it never becomes "deplying from Deep Strike", that rule does not exist, it is simply a description of what you do while following the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
You can't point out this rule in the rulebook, because you are just refering to "Arriving from Deep Strike".

Just because of a title doesn't mean that everything that follows is automatically part of the sane thing as the title particularly if the very first sentence tells us it is not.

Stop ignoring the rules.

The rest of your posted is based on this miss understanding so is moot.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving from deep strike is that entire rule, not just the first sentence of it. Even if you ignore the first 3 paragraphs, the rule is still "Arriving from Deep Strike", it never becomes "deplying from Deep Strike", that rule does not exist, it is simply a description of what you do while following the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".
You can't point out this rule in the rulebook, because you are just refering to "Arriving from Deep Strike".

Just because of a title doesn't mean that everything that follows is automatically part of the sane thing as the title particularly if the very first sentence tells us it is not.

Stop ignoring the rules.

The rest of your posted is based on this miss understanding so is moot.

I'm sorry, you've made the misunderstanding.
If you only use half the Rending rules, you're still using the Rending rules. You can't magically re-name it "Rending-sort-of" and and apply your new made-up rule to other things.

You are still very much using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.
Your finally argument is false and debunked. You're very much done here. Move along.

Stop ignoring the rules.

Stop making them up.

I'm sorry, you've made the misunderstanding.
If you only use half the Rending rules, you're still using the Rending rules. You can't magically re-name it "Rending-sort-of" and and apply your new made-up rule to other things.

Well if the rending rules said this part is rending after that you do this other thing. Then doing that other thing wouldn't be rending... For instance if they had the casualty removal rules after the rending rules and you had a certain ability that triggered rending automatically you still would have been considered to have made your attack and caused wounds even though you skipped all the actions of the rending rule and would then go on to casualty removal.

So again don't ignore the fact that we are told what arriving by deep strike is and that deploying by deep strike is a distinct rule that happens afterwards.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If the models are removed from the table before deep striking back on to the table, where are the models before they arrive?

The same place that conjured models are before they arrive. And units embarked upon transports. And models that have been removed from play as casualties. And models that are on the shelf but have nothing to do with the game. And yes, even models in reserve. They are all off the table.

Not all models that are off the table are in the same state, though. Some have been removed from play as casualties, some are in reserve, some are eligible to be conjured, some are assumed to be inside other models for game purposes, some are over on the shelf, and some are removed from the board as part of the Gate of Infinity psychic power.

There's no mystery to solve. In each case, we know what state the models are in.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
To answer this, look at the Deep Strike Mishap Table. Where does it tell us to place a deep striking unit that is neither removed from play nor placed by the opponent?

The rules tell us clearly what has to happen for the table to come into play. You're ignoring the instructions for using the Deep Strike Mishap table and making up your own rules instead.

 FlingitNow wrote:

I'm sorry, you've made the misunderstanding.
If you only use half the Rending rules, you're still using the Rending rules. You can't magically re-name it "Rending-sort-of" and and apply your new made-up rule to other things.

Well if the rending rules said this part is rending after that you do this other thing. Then doing that other thing wouldn't be rending... For instance if they had the casualty removal rules after the rending rules and you had a certain ability that triggered rending automatically you still would have been considered to have made your attack and caused wounds even though you skipped all the actions of the rending rule and would then go on to casualty removal.

So again don't ignore the fact that we are told what arriving by deep strike is and that deploying by deep strike is a distinct rule that happens afterwards.

You're still using the Rending rule.
And You're still using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.

"Deplying from Deep Strike" is a made up rule, invented to fit your incorrect interpretation.

I'm only ignoring the rules that GOI tells me to ignore. At least i'm not making them up.

You're still using the Rending rule.
And You're still using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.

"Deplying from Deep Strike" is a made up rule, invented to fit your incorrect interpretation.

The rules disagree with you on both points. Again please stop ignoring what the rules say.

 FlingitNow wrote:

You're still using the Rending rule.
And You're still using the "Arrive from Deep Strike" rule.

"Deplying from Deep Strike" is a made up rule, invented to fit your incorrect interpretation.

The rules disagree with you on both points. Again please stop ignoring what the rules say.

You claim that, but I've demonstrated that the rules agree with me.
Unless you're refering to another of your magical made up rules? If so I'm afraid they aren't in my rulebook.

GoI, by its rules, skips the first part of the deep strike rules with the part where it says simply place them.

If GoI directly places the models, and provides an override for that portion of deep striking, they never get the opportunity to enter reserves.

If Coteaz's power allows you to hit any deep striking unit, you can shoot a GoI unit. If his power only allows you to shoot at a deep strike unit arriving from reserves, then you cannot.

Can someone post up Coteaz's rule up, verbatim?

Fearspect wrote:
Can someone post up Coteaz's rule up, verbatim?

No because that is frowned upon and can incur the wrath of the Emperor. I mean GWs legal team.

That's not anywhere in the forum rules, but I suppose that would be the topic of another thread. Dakkadakka is literally littered with rules snippets.

Nix the request anyway, found it online:

"If an enemy unit arrives from reserves within 12" of Coteaz and within his line of sight..."

Good, that tidied the whole mess here up, summarized here:

1) GoI did not give permission for the unit to enter reserves
2) Deep strike refers to coming from reserves

This debate is not about whether you get to shoot at the unit or not, it is between:

a) GoI did not let them go into reserves (it skipped this), so Coteaz does not trigger, or
b) The game breaks and ends immediately because you simultaneously need to deep strike a unit, but never got permission to place it in reserves to deep strike it in the first place (deep strike does not have the line: place a unit in reserve, or something to that effect).

 Happyjew wrote:

Fearspect wrote:
Can someone post up Coteaz's rule up, verbatim?

No because that is frowned upon and can incur the wrath of the Emperor. I mean GWs legal team.

Sure, but it's okay to quote enough to clarify the issue, right?

"If an enemy unit arrives from reserve..." (C:GK, p 45)

Putting aside the other criteria, the special rule is triggered when a unit arrives from reserve.

(Edited to fix the quote! Darn distractions.)

Fear respect the issue you have is that GoI requires you to arrive by deep strike. Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve therefore it triggers IBEY. What you are claiming requires GoI to tell you that you are deploying by deep strike, it does not.

You never got to place them in reserve, FlingitNow, you are arguing that it puts the game into an unresolveable game state.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Fear respect the issue you have is that GoI requires you to arrive by deep strike.

True.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve therefore it triggers IBEY.

False. The rule states: "Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves..."

We do not need to use the rules for Reserves, for two reasons:

1.) The unit targeted by Gate of Infinity is not in reserve and is not placed into reserve by the psychic power.
2.) We don't need to figure out if it arrives by Deep Strike, because we are told that it does so immediately.

Under normal conditions, units arriving by Deep Strike do arrive from reserve. However, Gate of Infinity modifies that, allowing us to remove a unit from the board and then have it arrive by Deep Strike somewhere else on the board. It never goes into reserve and, because it is not in reserve, it cannot arrive by Deep Strike without special, explicit permission. Permission that Gate of Infinity gives us.

This is why I brought up the rules for conjuring units (p 68). Conjured units are not in reserve. They're actually not part of the game at all, in any way, until they arrive by Deep Strike. They cannot do anything, as they are not even part of the game, until we are given explicit permission to have them arrive via Deep Strike.

The rules for conjuration and Gate of Infinity both give explicit permission for units that are unquestionably not placed in reserve to arrive by Deep Strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What you are claiming requires GoI to tell you that you are deploying by deep strike, it does not.

The rules continue: "...and then deploy them as follows:"

You keep talking about deploying by Deep Strike like it's a separate thing. It's not. The instructions for deploying Deep Striking units are part of the rules for arriving by Deep Strike. However, the rules for arriving by Deep Strike also cover other things that are not in and of themselves deployment. (For example, disembarking from a Deep Striking transport, what can be done during the different phases of the turn the unit arrives, etc.). Also, as I have already pointed out, it is possible to arrive without deploying at all. (After all, the Deep Strike Mishap table only kicks in when a unit arriving by Deep Strike cannot deploy.)

What the rules for Gate of Infinity and Conjuration are both telling us, clearly, is that units that are not in reserve (and would normally not be allowed to Deep Strike) are given permission to arrive by Deep Strike under certain specific conditions.

Stop thinking you are deepstriking for a start.

GoI does not state you go into reserve to deepstrike.

Remove the unit yadda yadda yadda it then arrives immediately using the rules for deepstrike.

Key wording using the rules for. Not via

So, you remove the models from the table, then deep strike them back on to the table. Where were they before they deep strike? Not on the table, because you removed them. I wonder if the Deep Strike rules tell us were the models are at when not on the table? The models are placed in Deep Strike Reserves!?!

Wow, its like there is a specific holding area for model waiting to deep strike, and its right there in the rules!

SJ

They are not in reserve, as GoI does not say to place them into reserves.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, you remove the models from the table, then deep strike them back on to the table. Where were they before they deep strike? Not on the table, because you removed them. I wonder if the Deep Strike rules tell us were the models are at when not on the table?

Well they're not in reserve, that's for sure.

The models are placed in Deep Strike Reserves!?!

Nope. Deep Strike never says that.

Wow, its like there is a specific holding area for model waiting to deep strike, and its right there in the rules!

Wow, totally incorrect.
And totally not in the rules. Anywhere.

So when you embark a unit onto a transport, and are told to remove them from the table, do they go into reserve?
Wow, no they don't either! Amazing!

GoI does not trigger coteaz ability. They are not arriving from reserves.


They are using deep strike deployment rules (and only the deployment part of the rule) instead of re-writing them and wasting ink. This constitutes only from the placement of the first model and the scatter roll on down and nothing before it.

The unit is clearly teleporting from one spot on the table to another and is never placed back in reserves.