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They are using deep strike deployment rules (and only the deployment part of the rule) instead of re-writing them and wasting ink.

GoI disagrees with this statement. It says you are arriving by deep strike (aka arriving from reserve).

Given these two known facts that the rules explicitly tell us:

1) GoI requires you to arrive by deep strike
2) Arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve

I don't get how there is any argument.

At this point, he is either digging in because he refuses to admit he is incorrect, or is simply trolling.

Anyone reading through this thread can see the clearly provided evidence otherwise, and stating things like 'GoI disagrees with this statement' doesn't refute them.

I think its fine to let the one dissenter go on with his life and the discussion here can stand on its own.

Or indeed I'm pointing to 2 facts that no one can dispute (though some have by ignoring rules). By saying GoI disagrees with someone I am pointing out that what they are saying is in direct contradiction to the instructions in GoI. Which clearly tell us to arrive by deep strike not merely deploy by deep strike. The later being the position of everyone that has disagreed with me so far, and as I've pointed is a position that is demonstrably false.

Arriving by deep strike triggers many rules that merely being deployed by deep strike would not. For instance you can use the Tau Warlord trait to not scatter when arriving by deep strike. But anything that is triggered by arriving from reserve would likewise be triggered like IBEY.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or indeed I'm pointing to 2 facts that no one can dispute (though some have by ignoring rules). By saying GoI disagrees with someone I am pointing out that what they are saying is in direct contradiction to the instructions in GoI. Which clearly tell us to arrive by deep strike not merely deploy by deep strike. The later being the position of everyone that has disagreed with me so far, and as I've pointed is a position that is demonstrably false.

Arriving by deep strike triggers many rules that merely being deployed by deep strike would not. For instance you can use the Tau Warlord trait to not scatter when arriving by deep strike. But anything that is triggered by arriving from reserve would likewise be triggered like IBEY.

GOI disagrees.

So does Deep Strike.
Your incorrect interpretation only works when using your made-up rule.

There is no such rule as "Deploy by Deep Strike" it is a fiction you've created. The rule is "Arrive by Deep Strike" and as specified by GOI, does not use the Reserve rules.

Your two "facts" are a complete fiction, and no amount of made-up rules will prove you correct.

If you believe GoI says that you are not arriving by deep strike then you need to read GoI. If you believe there are no rules that govern deploying by deep strike then you need to read the DS rules. If you think that arriving by deep strike and deploying by deep strike are the same thing then you need to read the deep strike rules.

All of it is there.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you believe GoI says that you are not arriving by deep strike then you need to read GoI.

Continue to twist people's words and misrepresent, please. I have always said GOI states you arrive by Deep strike. Clearly you have not only made-up rules, but not read peoples posts, and failed to understand the rules.

If you believe there are no rules that govern deploying by deep strike then you need to read the DS rules.

Another falsehood. Who's state this? Only you claiming that other people have.

If you think that arriving by deep strike and deploying by deep strike are the same thing then you need to read the deep strike rules.

They in fact are under the same rule. It's called "Arriving by Deep Strike". Check the index, it's there. Do you know what rule does not exist? Your fictional "Deploying by Deep Strike". A rule you've invented to prove people wrong. And it fails.
If you deploy by Deep Strike, what rule do you use?
"Arrive by Deep Strike".

All of it is there.

Agreed. Please read it.

You're fixating on rule names and not reading the actual rules. You have said there are no rules for deploying by deep strike yet the deep strike rules going into detail on deploying models. That's is what is meant by deploying by deep strike it is deploying according to the deep strike rules. Likewise arriving is arriving by the deep strike rules and how do they define "arriving"? Oh yes successfully coming from reserve...

Ah rules lawyers, gotta love them, hiwbp with me is that he gets the shots, I don't care about the in and out of the wording or even the raw in this particular discussion, I'm going with he can as it makes the game a little more interesting than someone finding a loophole to get around the I've been expecting you rule.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You have said there are no rules for deploying by deep strike yet the deep strike rules going into detail on deploying models.

Again, no I haven't. Please read what I actually post.
When you deploy via Deep Strike, you use the rule called "Arriving by Deep Strike".

This is your only counter claim to my argument. And it's incorrect.
Your stating that since the Reserve rules aren't used, you "Deploy from Deep Strike", which doesn't work because GOI says "Arrive by Deep Strike".
This is such a weak argument, and doesn't work at all.
You Deploy via Deep Strike using the rule "Arrive by Deep Strike".

GOI states very clearly you use the Deep Strike rules, specifically "Arriving by Deep Strike". In addition it removes the requirement for Reserves and Arriving from Reserve.

That's is what is meant by deploying by deep strike it is deploying according to the deep strike rules.

Which uses the rule "Arriving from Deep Strike".

Likewise arriving is arriving by the deep strike rules and how do they define "arriving"? Oh yes successfully coming from reserve...

GOI disagrees.
It defines that you "arrive immediately"
In addition deep strike NEVER defines a unit as arriving from reserve. That is yet another thing you've made up. Deep Strike requires that the unit be in Reserve, and that you make a reserve roll. Two requirements not needed thanks to the GOI rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
Ah rules lawyers, gotta love them, hiwbp with me is that he gets the shots, I don't care about the in and out of the wording or even the raw in this particular discussion, I'm going with he can as it makes the game a little more interesting than someone finding a loophole to get around the I've been expecting you rule.

Actually the rules lawyering as you put it, is twisting this rule to use IBEY on a unit it should never effect.
It doesn't work RAW.
It doesn't work RAI.
And it definitely doesn't work with the fluff of the rules, if you've read them.
But please continue to abuse your opponents.

So does GoI say use the "Arriving by Deep Strike" rules anywhere? Or does it state that you "arrive" using the deep strike rules? If it is the later why are you not using the ONLY part of the deep strike rules that describe how you arrive?

Oh dear I was one word off.
That still doesn't address all the failings in your interpretation does it?

The entire rule states how you arrive. You can pretend the rest is deploy and not arrive (because deploy and arrive don't have similar meanings in your world), but this has no basis in the rules. It's one rule.

So by your crazy interpretation the unit can only arrive, and then not deploy? So they in fact never return to the table?

Arriving by deep strike does NOT mean you only use the first sentence of "Arrive by Deep Strike".

And where does it define in the deep strike rules that a unit using it are arriving from reserve? Nowhere. It's a requirement, bypassed by GOI.

The entire rule states how you arrive.

In correct whilst the entire rule may be called "Arriving by Deep Strike" (one could argue that is just a title for a section that begins with arriving, fortunately that is irrelevant in this debate) the GoI rules do not reference that rule name. They reference "arriv[ing] by the deep strike rules" and the deep strike rules have a very specific definition of what you are doing when arriving.

Arriving by deep strike does NOT mean you only use the first sentence of "Arrive by Deep Strike".

Not only that sentence but you must use that sentence. This is your issue. If the title was referenced in GoI your argument would have some credence. But it does not it sates you "arrive using the deep strike rules" hence you MUST use the parts of the DS rules that are about arriving fortunately they tell you that you must THEN deploy. But you are still arriving.

Arrive from Reserve is not just that first sentence.
It really is that whole rule.
You can claim it's only the first sentence (the one GOI renders void) and that the rest is "Deploying" therefore you must use that first voided sentence, but this really has no basis in the rules.

GOI bypasses the requirement for a Reserve roll, and the requirement that the unit start the game in reserve.
And at no point does the Deep Strike rule EVER define a unit as arriving from reserve.

The unit doesn't start in reserve, never enters reserve, never uses any of the reserve rules and is never defined as being in reserve.

It really isn't read the rule it tells you which part is arriving by the deep strike rules and which part is deploying by the deep strike rules. There is absolutely no ambiguity in that rule. Again you are getting caught up in a title.

Please point to me where after the "then deploy" it says you are arriving or mentions arriving in anyway other that restrictions on units that have "arrived" (note the past tense).

 FlingitNow wrote:
it tells you which part is arriving by the deep strike rules and which part is deploying by the deep strike rules.

This is a distinction entirely made up by you. No it does not.

There is absolutely no ambiguity in that rule. Again you are getting caught up in a title.

No, you're dividing a rule and creating separate ones.

Please point to me where after the "then deploy" it says you are arriving or mentions arriving in anyway other that restrictions on units that have "arrived" (note the past tense).

Again this is your invention that the rule is divided into "arrive" and "deploy".
GOI even tells you when you arrive. The Deep strike rule then tells you how.

Again this is your invention that the rule is divided into "arrive" and "deploy".

BrB strongly disagrees with this statement. So either read the rules or stop posting.

"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

Note the bolded parts where is states arrival and then that deploying comes after that. This means they are not the same thing. Also note the Reserves rules are referenced and they use capitals to illustrate this is a named rule being used. Note how the GoI rules do not used the capitalized "Arriving by Deep Strike" named rule. Thus it is not referring to the entire section. It is referring to the part of that section that deals with arriving, which means you MUST use that part of the section...

 FlingitNow wrote:
"Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves Arrive immediatly and then deploy them as follows:"

Added in the rules for GOI for you.
There you go, the first sentence IS used. With GOI stating when they arrive and the Deep Strike rule stating how.

Since rolling for reserve is not done, this sentence:
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves
Is not used.
We do NOT roll for the arrival as specified by the rules for Reserve.

which means you MUST use that part of the section...

And yet the part that refers to reserves (rolling for reserve I might add) is not used thanks to the rules for GOI.

Simply put, why are you using a rule that refers to rolling for reserve, when you're not rolling for reserve?
You don't.

Then we are at an impasse, I believe I doing what GoI and the DS rules tell us you believe that you ignore the part that says you arrive by the deep strike rules and play it as you arrive immediately and then deploy by the the deep strike rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Then we are at an impasse, I believe I doing what GoI and the DS rules tell us you believe that you ignore the part that says you arrive by the deep strike rules and play it as you arrive immediately and then deploy by the the deep strike rules.

You don't roll for reserve.
So you can't use a sentence that tells you to roll for reserve.
Remove that from the equation and there is no reference to reserve.

It's pretty simple.
The Deep strike rules that say when you arrive from reserve you deep strike, are in the same section that says all models in the unit must have the deep strike rule, and that models that must deep strike don't count against your limit of models that can be held in reserve.

So you have 2 options.
1) GoI does nothing, as it doesn't say it gives the Deep Strike Special rule to all the models in the unit, and it doesn't say it placed them in reserve.
OR
2) You ignore the top paragraph, and skip down to Arriving by Deep Strike.

If you try to shoe horn in them counting as reserve, you open a whole can of worms. If I have 12 units and reserve 6 of them, I can't cast GoI as I'm already at my max of units in reserve.

That's an excellent point I hadn't considered.
Only Ongoing Reserve doesn't count towards the Reserve limit, and that isn't mentioned at all.

2) You ignore the top paragraph, and skip down to Arriving by Deep Strike.

Which is exactly what GoI tells you to do and thus you are arriving from reserve and trigger IBEY. Glad we all agree.

 FlingitNow wrote:

2) You ignore the top paragraph, and skip down to Arriving by Deep Strike.

Which is exactly what GoI tells you to do and thus you are arriving from reserve and trigger IBEY. Glad we all agree.

So we roll for reserves then?
If not then the two references to Reserve are null and void. Therefore the unit cannot be arriving from reserve.

If you try to shoe horn in them counting as reserve, you open a whole can of worms. If I have 12 units and reserve 6 of them, I can't cast GoI as I'm already at my max of units in reserve.

Also I assume you had a brain fart here as there are literally no rules governing how many units you can have in reserve during the game.

So we roll for reserves then?
If not then the two references to Reserve are null and void. Therefore the unit cannot be arriving from reserve

We are still "arrived[ing] by the deep strike rules" though which means we are coming from reserve the immediately instruction from GoI over riding the roll.

 FlingitNow wrote:
We are still "arrived[ing] by the deep strike rules" though which means we are coming from reserve the immediately instruction from GoI over riding the roll.

I've underlined the mistake you continue to make.
Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike. A requirement not needed thanks to GOI.
Deep Strike NEVER defines a unit as arriving from reserve, it requires it (but not in the case of GOI).

BRB p36 " Deep Strike wrote:In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start in Reserve

BRB p36 "Arriving from Deep Strike wrote:Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
* First, place....

These two quotes are the only time Reserves are referenced in the Deep Strike rule.

The first quote is rendered void but the GOI rules. The Unit didn't start in reserve, and doesn't nessisarily have the Deep Strike rule. But we're told to use it anyway.

The Second quote, we are not rolling for reserve as specified in the rules for reserves, instead the unit arrives immediatley. As stated by GOI. So that reference to Reserve is gone.

There are no more references to Reserve. And the Deep Strike rules never define a unit as being in Reserve.
So the unit, quite litterally is not arriving from Reserve.

I've underlined the mistake you continue to make.
Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike. A requirement not needed thanks to GOI.

Mistake doesn't mean what you think it means. When some one makes a statement of indisputable fact that is not a mistake. Just because reserves is a requirement of Deep Strike (a requirement GoI bypasses) does not mean it is unrelated to arriving by deep strike, because arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve as we are told on page 36.

 FlingitNow wrote:
When some one makes a statement of indisputable fact that is not a mistake.

I agree.
But that isn't what you did. You made a mistake.

Just because reserves is a requirement of Deep Strike (a requirement GoI bypasses) does not mean it is unrelated to arriving by deep strike, because arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve as we are told on page 36.

And here's the mistake.
Arriving from Deep Strike is not arriving from Reserve.
At no point anywhere does the Deep Strike rules say this.
I would ask you to quote it, but there really is no need. It isn't there.
Other than the two requirements refering to being in reserve and rolling for reserves, reserves aren't mentioned in the rule.

Pg 36 tells us "In order for a unit to be able to deep strike, all models in the unit must have the deep strike special rule and the unit must start the game in reserves."

FligitNow, What you are suggesting is only units with a psyker that started the game in reserve but where on the table at the start of the psyker's movement and have the deep strike special rule are legal targets for GoI. Further more GoI will remove the unit from the table, but because the unit is not held in reserves any more the unit cannot be deployed again.

Do you really think that's how it should work?

DJGietzen that text is a restriction on deep striking and has literally nothing to do with "arriv[ing] by the deep strike rules" which is what GoI tells us to use. For some reason which I can't work out Grendel believe that when GW say " arrive by the deep strike rules" he assumes you don't use the deep strike rules for arriving and instead only use the deep strike rules for deploying. Either that or when GW say action A is arriving then deploy, what they actually mean is action A is arriving then continue arriving whilst deploying as such. Why he assumes GW means something completely different to what they wrote I don't understand and why he claims this is RaW is not even remotely fathomable to me.

But RAW:

1) GoI tells you to arrive using the deep strike rules.
2) Deep strike tells us that arriving is coming from reserve

The Deep Strike rules talk about a unit having to start in reserves, but nowhere in the Deep Strike or GoI (or VoD) rules does it give you specific permission to place the unit in reserves. So either GoI gives you permission to ignore the requirement being placed in reserves or you can never use it, as you are never given express permission to place the unit in reserves except at the start of the game.