Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Because the reserve roll is to see if you arrive. GoI tells you that you arrive "immediately" in that very sentence I cited for you already.

And where are you arriving from?

Reserve as per the DS rules.

OK. And how did you get in Reserves?

You don't. You are never placed in reserves. But you are still arriving from it as per the DS rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You don't. You are never placed in reserves. But you are still arriving from it as per the DS rules.

So you are arriving from reserves without having been in reserves? Please explain how that works.

 Happyjew wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
You don't. You are never placed in reserves. But you are still arriving from it as per the DS rules.

So you are arriving from reserves without having been in reserves? Please explain how that works.

What are actually asking because I don't understand your question.

Are you placed in reserves? No.
Are you arriving from deep strike? Yes => you are arriving from reserve.

This is what the rules tell us. Are you claiming that models that use GoI are not arriving by deep strike because if so GoI disagrees with you. Or are you claiming arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserve because if so the Deep Strike rules disagree with you.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What are actually asking because I don't understand your question.

Are you placed in reserves? No.
Are you arriving from deep strike? Yes => you are arriving from reserve.

This is what the rules tell us. Are you claiming that models that use GoI are not arriving by deep strike because if so GoI disagrees with you. Or are you claiming arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserve because if so the Deep Strike rules disagree with you.

My question is how are you arriving from reserves without being in reserves?

How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

But you're suggesting ignoring all of the reserve rules.
You say they're arriving from reserve but use non of those reserve rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

But you're suggesting ignoring all of the reserve rules.
You say they're arriving from reserve but use non of those reserve rules.

But I am following the GoI and DS rules. Only ignoring the parts of the reserve rules I have permission to ignore. Or more appropriately I am only using the parts of the reserves rules that I have permission to use and not using any other parts of the reserves rules. By casting GoI I HAVE to use the GoI rules. Which tell me to use the rules for arriving by deep strike so again I HAVE to use those rules, the caveat being that I an told to arrive immediately do therefore don't have to roll for arrival.

Exactly what parts of the reserve rules are you using?
Any at all?

None the only parts of the reserve rules you normally use when DSing is the reserve roll. GoI by passes the roll, but the DS rules are still being used and you are still arriving from reserves without ever triggering any of the reserves rules.

So if you are not using reserve rules how are you arriving from reserves?

So if you are not using reserve rules how are you arriving from reserves?

By deep strike as per GoI and the DS rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if I'm not arriving from reserve as you guys suggest. Please tell me which of these premises is false:

1) you are arriving by deep strike (pg422)
2) arriving by deep strike is arriving from reserve (pg36)

Please cite the rules you have to over ride the rules I've quoted.

 FlingitNow wrote:
None the only parts of the reserve rules you normally use when DSing is the reserve roll. GoI by passes the roll, but the DS rules are still being used and you are still arriving from reserves without ever triggering any of the reserves rules.

The underlined is wrong.
You use "Reserves", "Preparing Reserves" and parts of "Arriving from Reserves" with standard Deep Strike.

With GOI you use non of these. Even "Arriving from reserves" isn't used, as you "arrive immediately" as per the GOI rules.

Again Reserve is a requirement of Deep Strike.
"...and the unit must start the game in Reserve..."

"...roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then..."
Another rule that isn't actually being used since the by the GOI rules the unit arrives immediately instead.

So at no point is the unit in Reserve, using any of the reserve rules, or even counted as arriving from reserve by the GOI rules.

The underlined is wrong.
You use "Reserves", "Preparing Reserves" and parts of "Arriving from Reserves" with standard Deep Strike.

Sorry I was not clear. When I said "when DSing" I meant "when arriving by deep strike" I figured context would make it clear as "arriving by deep strike" is what we have been discussing.

"...roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then..."
Another rule that isn't actually being used since the by the GOI rules the unit arrives immediately instead.

This rule is being used just augmented by GoI. If GoI said you are "deployed by deep strike" your argument would be correct. But it doesn't...

So at no point is the unit in Reserve, using any of the reserve rules, or even counted as arriving from reserve by the GOI rules.

The rulebook disagrees with the underlined. So prove either:

1) when using GoI you don't "arrive by deep strike"
2) that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves.

Or concede.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Or concede.

This nonsense again?

So prove either

Ah two loaded questions. Which one to choose....
Bearing in mind we're using GOI in this example not the standard Deep Strike rules. Your questions would be relevant if GOI wasn't being used.

2) that arriving by deep strike is not arriving from reserves.

You've answered this one already.
Does the GOI say you "arrive from Reserve", or does it say you "arrive immediately"?

When you GOI, the models are removed from the table. Models that are not on the table, yet are not dead, are in reserve. When placed back on table via Deep Strike, the models arrive from reserve.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Models that are not on the table, yet are not dead, are in reserve.

You have a rule to prove this I assume?

You remove a unit from the table to embark on a transport. Are they in reserve also?

Sorry but your statement is flat out wrong.

You've answered this one already.
Does the GOI say you "arrive from Reserve", or does it say you "arrive immediately"?

It says "immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike" and what do the deep strike rules tell us arriving is?

I have proven:

1) GoI forces you to arrive by deep strike.
2) That arriving by deep strike is arrive from reserve.

Thus you MUST be arriving from reserve when you use GoI. You need to disprove one of those points for there to be any chance that GoI does not trigger IBEY. So concede or disprove one of those 2 premises. Because if they are true (as I've proven) then GoI certainly does make you arrive from reserve.

You have not proven 2.

You're claiming they're arriving from reserve, despite using non of these rules. But as you yourself have just quoted, they arrive immediately, not from reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

I would like to see the rule that allows you to place a non flyer/FMC back into Reserves?

40k-noob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

I would like to see the rule that allows you to place a non flyer/FMC back into Reserves?

Eldar codex page 35 - Skyleap.

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
How by casting gate of infinity and doing what the rules tell me to do.

What rules do you think we should ignore, the GoI rules or the DS rules? And where are you getting permission to ignore those rules?

I would like to see the rule that allows you to place a non flyer/FMC back into Reserves?

Eldar codex page 35 - Skyleap.

You're claiming they're arriving from reserve, despite using non of these rules. But as you yourself have just quoted, they arrive immediately, not from reserve.

How do the DS rules define "arriving by deep strike"? Arriving immediately and from reserve are not mutually exclusive. Please point to the part of GoI or indeed any rule that states you are not "arriving by deep strike". Or prove that the DS rules don't say:

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy... {emphasis mine}

So what does this tell us? It tells us that for arrival you are coming from reserve, the "and then" part shows us that deploying by deep strike is something you do after arriving. So arriving by deepstrike is and only is coming from reserve. Thus when we are immediately arriving by the deep strike rules we are immediately arriving from reserve. So if the DS rules containt that text then my premise 2 is correct. So prove that those words aren't in the DS rules. Or disprove premise 1.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy...

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?
No you are not.

So is this rule even being used?
No it isn't.

This rule is the only one that might even hint that you are arriving form reserve, and it's not even being used when using GOI !

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?
No you are not.

So is this rule even being used?
No it isn't.

This rule is the only one that might even hint that you are arriving form reserve, and it's not even being used when using GOI

So now you're claiming that you are not arriving by deep strike when using GoI. GoI disagrees with you. If that rule is not being used you are not arriving by deep strike as that is the ONLY rule that is "arriving by deep strike" you then go on to deploy by deep strike.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?
No you are not.

So is this rule even being used?
No it isn't.

This rule is the only one that might even hint that you are arriving form reserve, and it's not even being used when using GOI

So now you're claiming that you are not arriving by deep strike when using GoI. GoI disagrees with you. If that rule is not being used you are not arriving by deep strike as that is the ONLY rule that is "arriving by deep strike" you then go on to deploy by deep strike.

Didn't read what I wrote did you? Go back, read it again, and answer the following:

Are you rolling for arrival as specified in the rules for Reserves?

It's not the use of a Deep Strike I'm questioning. It's the part that says you're arriving from reserve.

I read what you wrote. You didn't understand what I wrote. If you're not using that rule you're not "arriving by Deep Strike".

We are using that rule but GoI modifies that rule to be as follows:

"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."

If you don't use that rule you are simply deploying by deep strike which is not what GoI tells you to do.

Let's take another approach.

Do you agree that one rule can make use of only part of another rule?

For example, Deep Strike doesn't use all of the "arriving from reserve" rule, correct? The unit doesn't move on from a table edge, that part of the rule isn't being used.

Haywire is another example. It doesn't use all of the "Shooting at vehicles" rule, does it? You skip the rolling against armour and damage chart.

Same here. GOI doesn't use all of the Deep Strike rules.
The only part that tells us the unit is arriving from reserve is this line:
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy...

We're not rolling for the arrival of Deep Striking units, as specified in the rules for Reserves. Are we?
Because GOI states they arrive immediately.
This part of the rule isn't used. And it's the only part that suggests the unit is arriving from reserve.
Therefore the unit is not arriving from Reserve.

 FlingitNow wrote:
We are using that rule but GoI modifies that rule to be as follows:

"Immediately arrive as specified in the Reserves rules then deploy..."

Not true, because that would be breaking the Reserve rule. Since the Reserve rule never states you arrive immediately, your modification makes a falsehood out of the reserve rules.
Simply put, the Reserve rule does not specific you arrive immediately. Never does. Never will.

If you don't use that rule you are simply deploying by deep strike which is not what GoI tells you to do.

Actually... Yes it does (almost). It's says the unit "arrives via the Deep Strike Rules".

I agree that GoI doesn't use all of the DS rules. But it does use the "arriving by deep strike" rule though it modifies it.

You are still claiming that GoI is not arriving by deep strike. Then things get laughable:

Not true, because that would be breaking the Reserve rule. Since the Reserve rule never states you arrive immediately, your modification makes a falsehood out of the reserve rules.
Simply put, the Reserve rule does not specific you arrive immediately. Never does. Never will.

By this argument you don't make a shooting attack when you use the split fire USR as it says immediately make a shooting attack and the shooting rules don't say immediately. The reserves rule doesn't specify you arrive immediately GoI does it tells you when you arrive. The fact that a rules states you immediately do "A" means that you can't be doing "A" because the "A" rules don't specify immediately is frankly baffling.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You are still claiming that GoI is not arriving by deep strike.

Seriously. Please stop saying this. I've corrected you enough times on this.

Then things get laughable:

More laughable than claiming a unit that is never in Reserve, uses none of the Reserve rules, and never arrives from Reserve some how magically counts as arriving from reserve? Hilarious.

Not true, because that would be breaking the Reserve rule. Since the Reserve rule never states you arrive immediately, your modification makes a falsehood out of the reserve rules.
Simply put, the Reserve rule does not specific you arrive immediately. Never does. Never will.

By this argument you don't make a shooting attack when you use the split fire USR as it says immediately make a shooting attack and the shooting rules don't say immediately.

That's a poor example. You're talking about modifying a rule, and then saying another rule specified it. You can shoot immediately. You can arrive from reserve immediately, but the reserve rule doesn't specify it. Your "modified" rule is stating that the reserve rule says something it doesn't.
You can play word games all night to fit incorrect statements if you like.

The reserves rule doesn't specify you arrive immediately GoI does it tells you when you arrive. The fact that a rules states you immediately do "A" means that you can't be doing "A" because the "A" rules don't specify immediately is frankly baffling.

See that underlined part? That is correct.
But you stated with your "modified rule" that the reserve rules state the opposite. They don't.

The part that talks about arriving from reserve is not even used. You're trying to cheery pick words out of a sentence, to turn a rule into something it isn't.

The instructions read:

"Remove the target unit from the board. It then immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike." ("Gate of Infinity" instructions, p 422)

The rules tell us where a unit targeted by Gate of Infinity goes and, in doing so, tells us where it arrives from. It is most definitely not reserve. In context, it is that simple.

This is not the only example of a unit that is not in reserve arriving by Deep Strike. Conjured units are not in reserve, yet they also also arrive by Deep Strike (p 68).

Why don't the Gate of Infinity instructions just tell us to deploy the models using the rules for Deep Strike? Because arrival and deployment are related, but distinct. For example, a unit may arrive but never actually deploy. The section under the subheading "Arriving by Deep Strike" (p 36) covers several aspects of Deep Striking: how to determine if Deep Striking reserves arrive, how to deploy units arriving by Deep Strike, and what units arriving by Deep Strike may or may not do.

It's not that hard.