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 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

When I think of Tyranids I imagine a big kid playing with toys. The toys don't have any emotions or feelings, the kid is always in control at all times, despite how sentient the toys may seem to be to another toy... Am I making sense?

I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

 Galorian wrote:
I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

This isn't purely technological. The title reads 'What is the most advanced race in 40k?'
Advanced doesn't always mean technologically.

Necrons simply because they can phase in and out of existance, insane self regeneration/defenses, and gauss weapons are the most potent type in 40k universe.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Tau aren't like that when we consider stuff happening like the breakoff to the Farsight Enclaves, and I'm sure a number of other events we're simply not told about. Tau should be a 4, not a 5, they aren't infallible unlike the Necrons.

I agree entirely and did make them a 4 in my latest update of my rubric. There is a reason the tau and humans are tied for 4th place.

>< Please stop calling it the rubric. I know it's technically correct, but I keep thinking you're talking about 1kSons.

 Galorian wrote:
I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

To your first comment I refer you to my first post in the thread:

Take into consideration all of each race's technology, not just weapons and transportation technology, but power creation, civilian tech, and social/political systems.
Keep in mind there is only one right answer.

Advanced does not mean technologically superior, but more advanced. Chaos is psychics and can do whatever it pleases, this is why Chaos is winning in my rubric currently. Just because they don't need technology to pull it off doesn't make them less advanced. They can will you to death... Sounds pretty advanced to me. Necrons need tools to reach the same ends, they need power sources, and an infrastructure to create all these things. A daemon needs its mind. For this reason if I take away even the most powerful Necrons power source he will be pretty useless, but a greater daemon on his own is capable of pretty much anything.

As for your comment on longevity being important, Chaos wins again, but then how long someone lives in peace time is not what we are going after here is it? We are trying to figure out how a species can grow and outnumber others, the pinnacle of evolution is reproduction after all, so how one species can come to outnumber another is extremely relevant to its level of advancement. The fact is, Necrons can not create new minds, they are finite in number and limited as a result. No other species is limited in this fashion and thus they have received a one for this category. They were upgraded to a two because one user claimed they can produce more blank slate soldiers as needed. Unless you can provide a logical argument for this category being removed or updated, it will remain as is.

.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Galorian wrote:
I don't really see how culture is particularly relevant in a purely technological discussion.

Also, reproduction should be joined with longevity and industrial and expansion capabilities- the Necrons for example no longer breed as such, but they are functionally immortal and the worst case scenario for individuals short of having their Tombworld itself destroyed is for their body to be oblitirated to such an extent that they'll get their consciousnes uploaded into a new one. Moreover, they are a resurgent force in the 40K galaxy that is rapidly expanding its domains and their industrial technologies far outstrip anyone else's.

To your first comment I refer you to my first post in the thread:

Take into consideration all of each race's technology, not just weapons and transportation technology, but power creation, civilian tech, and social/political systems.
Keep in mind there is only one right answer.

Advanced does not mean technologically superior, but more advanced. Chaos is psychics and can do whatever it pleases, this is why Chaos is winning in my rubric currently. Just because they don't need technology to pull it off doesn't make them less advanced. They can will you to death... Sounds pretty advanced to me. Necrons need tools to reach the same ends, they need power sources, and an infrastructure to create all these things. A daemon needs its mind. For this reason if I take away even the most powerful Necrons power source he will be pretty useless, but a greater daemon on his own is capable of pretty much anything.

As for your comment on longevity being important, Chaos wins again, but then how long someone lives in peace time is not what we are going after here is it? We are trying to figure out how a species can grow and outnumber others, the pinnacle of evolution is reproduction after all, so how one species can come to outnumber another is extremely relevant to its level of advancement. The fact is, Necrons can not create new minds, they are finite in number and limited as a result. No other species is limited in this fashion and thus they have received a one for this category. They were upgraded to a two because one user claimed they can produce more blank slate soldiers as needed. Unless you can provide a logical argument for this category being removed or updated, it will remain as is.

My bad...

It's as if my brain had an autocorrect feature that adds "technologically" before "advanced"...

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

Statement retracted, apparently Old one fluff says the Old one's are the oldest beings, then the Necrons, The Chaos gods are apparently new and have only existed since just before the Emperor was born.

Your rubrics are fairly flawed, but the chaos one is really bad....

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government with clear artistic and architectural patterns.)

There is no defined culture in chaos, its... chaos. There is no clear artistic and achiteural patterns at all.. its exactly the opposite of that.

Transportation: 5 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly anywhere)

Not at all. The warp has limitations, it's why Daemons can't just appear out of nowhere, for no reason. The tides of the warp are fickle, and fluctuate all the time.

Power Creation: 3 (Relies on worshipers for power, but has no shortage)

Their powers also wax and wane because of the constant infighting between the four great gods.

Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)

They pretty much rely on Imperium tech, and the Dark Mechanicus. While some of it is supeiror to imperial counterparts, a lot of it has drawbacks. Such as Daemon Engines rampaging, mutations turning you into spawn or becoming undesirable... etc etc.

Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)

Sure, this one is right.

Reproduction: 4-5 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for any occasion)

Daemons can be created at will, but it saps power from the chaos god. This results in them weakening themselves. That's why they don't do it.

Item Creation: 5 (Gods can will just about anything into existence, and use captured industry from worshipers)

This is also limited. For one, they can't do this in realspace, their power is very limited. And they are limited in the Warp because of the great game.

You really seem to be overestimating the Chaos Gods here. They are indeed very powerful, but they also have quite a bit of limitation. This stems from the great game, which severely limits how much a God Can/Will expend himself.

Although I would also inquire as to the half life of Necron living metal. The idea that their bodies stayed around for 300,000 years is just baffling... Matter does not work that way, but then we could also imply Necron magic is at play again so...

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Although I would also inquire as to the half life of Necron living metal. The idea that their bodies stayed around for 300,000 years is just baffling... Matter does not work that way, but then we could also imply Necron magic is at play again so...

300,000? You mean Sixty Million?

 Sasori wrote:
Your rubrics are fairly flawed, but the chaos one is really bad....

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government with clear artistic and architectural patterns.)

There is no defined culture in chaos, its... chaos. There is no clear artistic and achiteural patterns at all.. its exactly the opposite of that.

Transportation: 5 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly anywhere)

Not at all. The warp has limitations, it's why Daemons can't just appear out of nowhere, for no reason. The tides of the warp are fickle, and fluctuate all the time.

Power Creation: 3 (Relies on worshipers for power, but has no shortage)

Their powers also wax and wane because of the constant infighting between the four great gods.

Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)

They pretty much rely on Imperium tech, and the Dark Mechanicus. While some of it is supeiror to imperial counterparts, a lot of it has drawbacks. Such as Daemon Engines rampaging, mutations turning you into spawn or becoming undesirable... etc etc.

Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)

Sure, this one is right.

Reproduction: 4-5 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for any occasion)

Daemons can be created at will, but it saps power from the chaos god. This results in them weakening themselves. That's why they don't do it.

Item Creation: 5 (Gods can will just about anything into existence, and use captured industry from worshipers)

This is also limited. For one, they can't do this in realspace, their power is very limited. And they are limited in the Warp because of the great game.

You really seem to be overestimating the Chaos Gods here. They are indeed very powerful, but they also have quite a bit of limitation. This stems from the great game, which severely limits how much a God Can/Will expend himself.

These are great points, I was waiting for someone with more familiarity with Chaos to chime in. Updating accordingly:

Chaos: 24
Made up of 4 gods, a slew of worshipers and run as a complete meritocracy, Chaos has some interesting characteristics.

Culture: 3 (Has a strict authoritarian government)
Transportation: 3 (Can go anywhere it wants and communicate instantly when possible)
Power Creation: 4 (Relies on worshipers for power, but is limited, but power creation is still at least on the level of the Humanity's)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Has everything its worshipers have and more)
Evolution: 2 (relies heavily on worshipers for evolutionary change)
Reproduction: 4 (gains worshipers daily, daemons can be created at will for a cost)
Item Creation: 4 (Gods can will just about anything into existence but only in the warp, and use captured industry from worshipers)

Weapons tech will remain unchanged because they do have much of the same tech as the Imperium and possibly more. Culture will remain the same as each god's worshipers do have clear hierarchies and systems they go by, at least on par with the Orks that is. Reproduction is equal to the birth rate of worshipers and the frequency of converts so it is greater than the human reproduction rate. Power creation equals worshiper's tech plus emotional boosts, it is at the very least greater than that of the Imperium.

Current Stats:

1st Eldar
2nd Necrons/Chaos
3rd Tau/Humans
4th Tyranids
5th Orks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Although I would also inquire as to the half life of Necron living metal. The idea that their bodies stayed around for 300,000 years is just baffling... Matter does not work that way, but then we could also imply Necron magic is at play again so...

300,000? You mean Sixty Million?

... Baffling... This is what I mean about hating GW writers, they are so insanely lazy in the way they approach giving tech to species. They never tried to learn a single scientific theory. But as I said, this is a conversation about who is most advanced according to the fluff not according to current science.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might even argue Chaos's Transportation is equal to Humanity's, after all they have human ships...

Speaking of transportation

Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)

How can you rate the Necrons a 4, while giving the Eldar a 5?

Necrons actually have the most reliable form of transportation in the galaxy.

Necrons ships were actually able to touch down on mars before getting destroyed.

Their transportation does not rely on the warp, which is huge. Even the Webway is shattered and splintered, with all kinds of horrors. Not to mention, the Necrons have Webway Access as well..

Not to mention their teleportation, etc etc.

Necrons have the widest variety, as well as the best methods of transportation in the galaxy. That should easily be a 5.

 Sasori wrote:
Speaking of transportation

Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)

How can you rate the Necrons a 4, while giving the Eldar a 5?

Necrons actually have the most reliable form of transportation in the galaxy.

Necrons ships were actually able to touch down on mars before getting destroyed.

Their transportation does not rely on the warp, which is huge. Even the Webway is shattered and splintered, with all kinds of horrors. Not to mention, the Necrons have Webway Access as well..

Not to mention their teleportation, etc etc.

Necrons have the widest variety, as well as the best methods of transportation in the galaxy. That should easily be a 5.

Please describe the actual tech they have, no one has given me a good description, only made statements. Do they have access to the Webway in the same way as the Eldar? Can they enter it at will? Or do they need Gates at specific locations to do so? What is it that makes their transportation so reliable? I am more than willing to upgrade them with sufficient information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a quote from the 5th ed codex about those gates.

The remaining Dolmen Gates only grant access to a small portion of the Webway, with much of the network being sealed by the Eldar to prevent further contamination. Despite this being the case, the immeasurable length of the sundered Webway does allow the Necrons to outpace the modes of travel used by the younger races. As they are bereft of Psykers, the Necrons rely on this method of transportation as they are incapable of Warp travel. Thus, if they were denied the use of the Webway, the Necrons would be forced to make use of slow moving stasis-ships that would doom their civilization to isolation.

They also have great engines, but they are not described in depth anywhere I can find. The Inertialess Drive sounds great, but I can find nothing on it other than it allows them to perform interstellar travel.

Please describe the actual tech they have, no one has given me a good description, only made statements. Do they have access to the Webway in the same way as the Eldar? Can they enter it at will? Or do they need Gates at specific locations to do so? What is it that makes their transportation so reliable? I am more than willing to upgrade them with sufficient information.

Dolmen Gates, which are Necron-built Webway portals that can move materials and soldiers across the Galaxy in the blink of an eye. They utilize the remaining sections of the Web-Way that the Eldar have not yet sealed, or have been unable to seal. It's basically a Web-Way gate that runs on the power of Science! rather than Eldar Brain-Magic.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Speaking of transportation

Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)

How can you rate the Necrons a 4, while giving the Eldar a 5?

Necrons actually have the most reliable form of transportation in the galaxy.

Necrons ships were actually able to touch down on mars before getting destroyed.

Their transportation does not rely on the warp, which is huge. Even the Webway is shattered and splintered, with all kinds of horrors. Not to mention, the Necrons have Webway Access as well..

Not to mention their teleportation, etc etc.

Necrons have the widest variety, as well as the best methods of transportation in the galaxy. That should easily be a 5.

Please describe the actual tech they have, no one has given me a good description, only made statements. Do they have access to the Webway in the same way as the Eldar? Can they enter it at will? Or do they need Gates at specific locations to do so? What is it that makes their transportation so reliable? I am more than willing to upgrade them with sufficient information.

Any method that fully relies on the warp or the Webway, is flawed. Warp Travel has many perils, but so does the Webway. The Webway is broken, splintered and fractured compared to what it once was. So it is also quite dangerous and unreliable. Unless you're a Harlequin. You also can't just enter the Webway from anywhere.

Necrons can enter the Webway Via Dolmen Gates. There is not a lot of fluff on this, but it does appear to be more limited than the Webway travel of Eldar. These appear to be at fixed locations, but keep in mind that the Necron Empire was galaxy spanning, so that is not really a huge deal.

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

So, not only do the Necrons have the best FTL travel, but they have much more in the form of their teleportation and dimensional mastery.

True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Well, I think Tau has the most potential. Eldar is a dying race. Maybe Nids would be a contender.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will leave their transportation tech at a four however because of their many other cool tech.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

"Faith and Fire" and "Hammer and Anvil" have Necrons as the primary antagonist, and features all kinds of Science! tomfoolery by the robo-mummies. where armies are walking in and out of Dolmen Gates from a fleet half a galaxy away (only mentioned in the books, does not make an appearance).

Since the protagonists are Sisters of Battle, it doesn't delve too deeply into the tech behind the Gates (as the Sisters don't have a background that would permit them to figure it out), but we get a few bits of narrative-insight as to how they work.

Outside of the Dolmen Gates, their inertialess starship drives permit travel speeds far in excess of the speed of light, and do not utilize the Warp at all.

They no longer have the Inertialess drive as of 5th edition as previously stated.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

Inertialess drives are weird. While still FTL, they obviously have limitations so they can't replace the Dolman Gates.

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

Or I could save money and have experts on different races help me come to a consensus. You are clearly an expert on the Necrons, I only claim to be a Tau expert. So as of now I can only make claims of knowing for a fact things about the tau. Though I see no reason to include the Inertialess Drive as a means of travel faster than warp or webway travel I am willing to say Necrons and Eldar now tie for first if it will help aliviate what seems to be becoming a heated discussion. I mean only to intellectually examine the fluff to come to a consensus not to insult or belittle anyone for any reason, after all we are talking about fluff for a board game written by dozens of men that don't read each other's work, and lack any knowledge of a single scholarly discipline. It isn't like we are talking about anything concrete here.

I was originally just trying to find out what people thought of as an advanced society. I have since discovered the modern human's preoccupation with metal machines and electronics as a definition of advancement, and their close mindedness at viewing biological advancements or even arts and literature as a means of becoming superior to other species in any way.

Now I am only attempting to create an objective system by which to scale civilizations on their level of achievement thus far, using our silly little game as a guinea pig to achieve this. It is my intention to make everyone here happy and reach a ranking system we can all agree with, not to tell you you are wrong.

Now if you can copy word for word from any text sponsored by GW hinting that the Inertialess Drive is faster than warp travel I will rank them equal to Eldar in an instant. That is all I am asking, and this does not seem to be a ridiculous request.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

When I think of Tyranids I imagine a big kid playing with toys. The toys don't have any emotions or feelings, the kid is always in control at all times, despite how sentient the toys may seem to be to another toy... Am I making sense?

But the kid is not only in control, but has a level of control of the toys like they were extensions of his body.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

But not in the state that it is now. What the Immaterium is in M41 is nothing at all like it was in M-6000, which is when the Necrons were doing their thing.

 Tyran wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
True, but it seems that the locations one can travel to are limited, and the uses, because they are essentially gates not portals that can be opened at will, are limited.

Also to the dangers of the webway this is all I can find:

The Webway in the current age has drastically changed compared to its original form as it has been torn apart by both disaster and war.[2c] During the Great Crusade, the Emperor created the Golden Throne on Terra as a means of entry into the Webway in order to remove the Imperium's reliance on Warp travel and astrotelepathy. This plan involved the construction of a new short section into the Webway and linking it into the abandoned Eldar network.[8] After the psychic disturbance caused by the ill-fated attempt of Magnus the Red to warn the Emperor of Horus's betrayal prior to the Horus Heresy, the human-built sections of the Webway were invaded by Warp entities. Since that time, a psyker has needed to remain on the Golden Throne and hold the portal between the Webway and realspace. The Emperor fulfills this role.

So only the human sections are dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necron galactic travel is a lot more reliable, because it relies simply on their technology, not any outside sources that can be manipulated. Their ships are talked about as "Being able to cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye". They also have their teleportation technology, which allows them to move entire armies across the galaxy instantly. No other race has that kind completely controlled Method.

Please cite a source for this, I can find nothing like this in the lexicanum or 40kwiki. I would be delighted to find out more about this however, it sounds fascinating.

though the Webway still connects many Eldar worlds and Craftworlds to one another, the baleful energies of the Fall have ruptured its hyperspatial pathways in countless places. Amongst the Webway's shattered and treacherous tendrils there are many byways, dead ends and mazes that can entrap the unwary. Some lead to places long since abandoned or destroyed, or else now inhabited by the daemons of the Warp.

There you go.

Really man, all of this is on google...

Here is a Lexicanium link for the Interia-less drives.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Inertialess_Drive#.UyyKbPldV2M

Inertialess Drives are propulsion systems used by the Necron Fleet that are capable of interstellar travel without the need to enter into the Warp.[1]

Your cited information on the webway is helpful, but then the Eldar have maps and whatnot don't they... They also have Warp travel... As for the Inertialess Drive nothing ther mentions its capabilities other than mentioning it is FTL... so is Warp... So this is less than impressive. Also I found this:

Prior to the release of the Necron fifth-edition codex, inertialess drive was the means of FTL travel used by the Necron warships of the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Among the many changes which this codex brought to the Necrons' backstory was the retconning out of existence of any form of starship-based FTL travel for the Necron fleet.

So according to current Necron fluff they don't even have FTL only the few webway gates.

That was Retconned, when the Fall of Orpheus re-introduced the Necron Fleet and it's Interta-less drive, which comes after the 5th edition Codex.

Honestly, you just can't get all of your information from the Lexi. It's limited, and often has erroneous information in it. You seriously need to at least read all of the codexes, before trying to really have a major fluff discussion like this.

Inertialess drives are weird. While still FTL, they obviously have limitations so they can't replace the Dolman Gates.

The Dolmen gates are likely better suited for vehicles that don't have FTL travel, such as the Nightscythe. The interita-less drives are mounted on the actual Starships of the Necron Navy.