What is the most advanced race in 40k?

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**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

Psienesis wrote:
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
.... Necrons are older than the Ruinous Powers. They predate anything someone from M41 would recognize as being of the Warp.

They predate the eye of terror maybe, but the Warp was always there, waiting.

But not in the state that it is now. What the Immaterium is in M41 is nothing at all like it was in M-6000, which is when the Necrons were doing their thing.

I already retracted this statement sir.

**Tyran**

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ah awesome, thought you were working towards a 5 with your description of the weighting system.
I also agree on the point that Tyranids have no social structure, they're just animals.

I think you will be hard pressed to describe Tyranids as "Simply animals."

The only reason I rate the Hive Mind as a one for culture is the fact that it is, but one entity. Pre-Hive Mind I imagine the Nids as one of the most advanced species one could imagine. The entire species developed such a strong co-existence and lack of care for their individual well being that they are willing to die at any time to allow others to be born in their stead. Also we have the Hive Mind itself to consider, again a super internet that allows each of the larger creatures to instantly transfer commands, thoughts, and even feelings to other bugs over vast ranges. This is by no means a lack of cultural interaction, but rather the most in depth and complex form of culture one could imagine. If it were not for their single entity status I would count the Nids as a five on my rubric.

If this still seems to difficult to accept, they regularly travel from galaxy to galaxy, and as others have said they do this while dormant. Please go forth and look up the physics equation to calculate where a galaxy will be at a given time millions of years from now based on its gravitational interactions with its local group and your own interaction with fluctuating gravitational systems on your way there. Do this then come back and say they are mindless animals... Because I find that to be the most incredulous statement one could make.

The Tyranids are incredibly intelligent, that's obvius.

Also I see the Tyranids as always being a Hive Mind and that they evolved from a planet sized Hive Mind (Like Eywa from Avatar, those blue cat people are essentially protonids to me).
Also the Tyranids aren't a species, they are a gigantic spaceborne ecosystem that consumes other ecosystems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:

The Dolmen gates are likely better suited for vehicles that don't have FTL travel, such as the Nightscythe. The interita-less drives are mounted on the actual Starships of the Necron Navy.

While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

**Sasori**

While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

The fact that they were able to conquer an entire sector, without the mention of using the Dolmen Gates, seems to contradict this.

**Tyran**

Sasori wrote:
While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

The fact that they were able to conquer an entire sector, without the mention of using the Dolmen Gates, seems to contradict this.

A sector is incredibly small compared to the galaxy.

**Sasori**

Tyran wrote:
Sasori wrote:
While IA 12 gives the Necrons back their Inertialess drive it doesn't overrides the fact that the Necrons depend on the Dolman Gates for large scale FTL.

The fact that they were able to conquer an entire sector, without the mention of using the Dolmen Gates, seems to contradict this.

A sector is incredibly small compared to the galaxy.

We don't have enough data to conclusively say the the Dolmen gates are actually needed at this point.

It's really a case of inconsistent fluff writing. It's pretty clear that the Starfleet was initially meant to be retconned, and the Dolman gates as their primary method of FTL but after their reintroduction of the Starfleet, it really makes the Dolmen Gates, pretty worthless, as the Fleet appears to be able to do everything it could and more. We don't have any kind of data on teleportation ranges, so with the Fleet being able to beam in it's attack force now, it really does make the Dolmen gates second rate.

**Happyjew**

Jancoran, Murdius Maximus: I'm getting a drink. You guys want anything while I'm up?

**Furyou Miko**

Really, the in world truth of the matter is clear. As we have sources that state that the Inertialess Drive allows pinpoint FTL travel with instantaneous maneuverability, and we have sources that state that the Dolmen Gates allow the Necrons to utilize the webway, clearly the Dolmen Gates are relics of a bygone age from before the Inertialess Drive was perfected.

From an out of world point of view, the truth is this: Matt Ward has not read the Battlefleet Gothic rules for Necron fleets, and does not refer to his own notes when writing. Otherwise, he would have realised that the Necrons having a galaxy-spanning empire before they ever encountered the Eldar, whilst still relying on Eldar technology to traverse it, simply does not work.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

Current Standings, which I find odd, but perhaps this will alleviate some of the tension in the thread.

1st: Eldar/Necrons
2nd: Chaos
3rd. Humanity/Tau
4th: Tyraninds
5th: Orks

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if anyone can provide actual word for word evidence for the supposed faster than warp ability of the Inertialess Drive I would be forever grateful.

**Happyjew**

From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yep, BFG has all the data on Necron starships you need.
There's even a bit of info on them in the 3rd ed dex, iirc.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Is this faster than warp travel? I mean does BFG have warp travel rules?

**CthuluIsSpy**

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Is this faster than warp travel? I mean does BFG have warp travel rules?

Everything on BFG can be found here

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=6700003a§ion=&aId=21500018a

Including Necron rules.

Considering how necron ships appear to be faster than even Eldar ships (Necron cruisers can move 30cm per turn, where as Cruisers can only move up to 25cm), that's saying something.

Also, if they are capable of entering interstellar travel without needing to enter the warp, that would imply that they can move fast enough to not have to rely on the warp to get anywhere.

**Happyjew**

No clue. I saw you asked about Inertialess Drives, and that was all I could find.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

Is this faster than warp travel? I mean does BFG have warp travel rules?

Everything on BFG can be found here

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480005a&categoryId=6700003a§ion=&aId=21500018a

Including Necron rules.

Considering how necron ships appear to be faster than even Eldar ships (Necron cruisers can move 30cm per turn, where as Cruisers can only move up to 25cm), that's saying something.

Also, if they are capable of entering interstellar travel without needing to enter the warp, that would imply that they can move fast enough to not have to rely on the warp to get anywhere.

Speed outside of battle is what I am looking for, for instance one would not fight a battle at warp. I want to know whether their ships would win in a race across our galaxy against the Eldar if the points for the start and finish were random.

**CthuluIsSpy**

That...is a good question. There is not any exact data about the speed of the Webway or Necron Intialess drives. The best answer I can give you is "fast enough to not lose a war"

**AllSeeingSkink**

Doesn't "intertialess travel" imply either exactly speed of light or faster than light travel in general sci-fi terms?

**Bharring**

Web way doesn't travel parallel to Realspace. It's not a factor of distance. Comparing the two in that way won't do any good.

**CthuluIsSpy**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Doesn't "intertialess travel" imply either exactly speed of light or faster than light travel in general sci-fi terms?

Usually, yes. That's still pretty vague though.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

Bharring wrote:
Web way doesn't travel parallel to Realspace. It's not a factor of distance. Comparing the two in that way won't do any good.

The goal is to figure out total travel time, not top speed.

**Tyran**

Happyjew wrote:
From the BFG rules:

INERTIALESS DRIVE
Necron drives are capable of interstellar travel
without the need to enter the Warp. The drive is
fired whenever All Ahead Full orders are issued;
instead of obeying the normal rules for this
order the ship gains D6 x 10cm additional
movement and can make a turn for every 20cm
it travels.

That only tell us that they have a non warp based FTL, not that it is faster. Although they can use it for pinpoint jumps in the middle of a battle.
In this moment my personal theory is inertialess drives for pinpoint jumps and short range FTL while Dolmen Gates for larger distances.

**Bharring**

My point is that you can't. It depends on the locations of web way portals.

**Psienesis**

Warp is only frequently "faster than light". Other times? You never come out at all.... or you come out five thousand years later than you expected to arrive. Or you come out before you left.

And sometimes? When you come out, it is better that you had never been born.

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

Bharring wrote:
My point is that you can't. It depends on the locations of web way portals.

Okay then what if we did the average travel time for each on 1000 runs from different points in space to a given location. The net total times would be averaged then compared. I still feel from available fluff the Eldar would win by a whole lot, and I have yet to see compelling evidence that the Necrons would even outrun an Imperial ship in such a contest.

**Psienesis**

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orphean_War#.Uyy2YKLEGEo

The Necrons are swift.

**Happyjew**

The average speed within the warp is already known.

All ships within the Warp travel at the speed of plot.

If the author needs them in their for 4 years, then they will be trapped. If the author needs them on the other side the next day, they will be out before they even realise they were in the warp.

**Iron_Captain**

Happyjew wrote:
The average speed within the warp is already known.

All ships within the Warp travel at the speed of plot.

If the author needs them in their for 4 years, then they will be trapped. If the author needs them on the other side the next day, they will be out before they even realise they were in the warp.

Or they come out before they entered and cause a time paradox

**Idolator**

Orks are obviously the most technologically advanced species.

They span several galaxies, not just the one with humans. They have developed a self replicating ecosystem that goes with them where ever they are. Their entire culture and society is self suficient. They can build vehicles, powerplants and weapons out of virtually anything. They can replicate just about any technology after just observing it, while other races can't even use much less replicate ork technology.

**BrotherOfBone**

Idolator wrote:
Orks are obviously the most technologically advanced species.

They span several galaxies, not just the one with humans. They have developed a self replicating ecosystem that goes with them where ever they are. Their entire culture and society is self suficient. They can build vehicles, powerplants and weapons out of virtually anything. They can replicate just about any technology after just observing it, while other races can't even use much less replicate ork technology.

This was my point, I just failed to make it very well

**OzTeG8ndPwRfl**

BrotherOfBone wrote:
Idolator wrote:
Orks are obviously the most technologically advanced species.

They span several galaxies, not just the one with humans. They have developed a self replicating ecosystem that goes with them where ever they are. Their entire culture and society is self suficient. They can build vehicles, powerplants and weapons out of virtually anything. They can replicate just about any technology after just observing it, while other races can't even use much less replicate ork technology.

This was my point, I just failed to make it very well

What fluff says there are orks in another galaxy? I have never seen this in my life and I have been playing since the end of second edition.

**BrotherOfBone**

OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
BrotherOfBone wrote:
Idolator wrote:
Orks are obviously the most technologically advanced species.

They span several galaxies, not just the one with humans. They have developed a self replicating ecosystem that goes with them where ever they are. Their entire culture and society is self suficient. They can build vehicles, powerplants and weapons out of virtually anything. They can replicate just about any technology after just observing it, while other races can't even use much less replicate ork technology.

This was my point, I just failed to make it very well

What fluff says there are orks in another galaxy? I have never seen this in my life and I have been playing since the end of second edition.

I've forgotten when specifically it was sent out but basically the IOM sent a probe off into deep space and the only signals they've received from other galaxies were from Orks