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 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

You are misinterpreting a great many statements I have made.

First that biomass can outnumber inorganic matter.
Quite to the contrary, I disagree that this is possible, but contend that inorganic matter can become used by biological entities to form new bodies, that is to say it is possible to have microbes that incorporate inorganic matter into their membranes, DNA, and organelles.

I am a biohacker in my free time, currently attempting to, and marginally succeeding in, producing cyanobacteria with more plastids. My goal is to increase the overall efficiency of cyanobacteria in terms of CO2 depletion and O2 production as a way to cheaply and efficiently replace oxygen scrubbers in space craft. If I am successful my cyanobacteria will in a few years allow our astronauts to breathe in space for far longer, and far more safely then they currently do.

Another project I am working on, something more of a pipe dream, is to create an organism that produces a large shell of thick carbon nano tubes. This organism will, if I have my way, replace our spacecraft, producing the entire completed hull of the craft with zero human oversight using CO2 as its primary tool to produce the hull.

I would like to see large organic carbon nano tube lined hydrogen ram jet ships piloting our race into the future.

Secondly about psychic powers;
I am a psychologist and Neurologist currently working towards my doctorate, I am intimately aware that humans or for that matter no other creature exhibits psychic behaviors of any kind. However I am also aware that a great many creatures are able to detect electromagnetic waves we can not (Bats, dogs, etc.), and fields we can not (Birds, and other migratory creatures). It is not unreasonable to say a group of creatures could call each other with their thoughts using radio waves. They could have bones that resonate at the right frequencies allowing them to even change the channels they are tuning into. Listening in to specific voices if you will. I suggest no magic, or immaterial forces at work, only what I know as a scientist.

It is not only possible, but likely that we will find life utilizing just about every form of matter we can conceive of somewhere in the galaxy. Creatures may eat uranium, move using plasma pulses, and see using magnetic fields. Life is a strange thing, and it will always evolve to best suit it's surroundings.

Bio-tech provides a way for us to increase the rate of reproduction, and evolution, to instantly produce anything we could need the moment we need it. We can control the rate of meiosis, the degradation of cells, and even the power output of mitochondria. The options are limitless.

As for your classes in nano tech, every field believes itself the best. I am on team bio and you are are team tech, only time will tell who wins and why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention even the largest nanite swarm can be foiled by a single frequency jammer set to the right frequency band. If they can not communicate the limited processing capabilities of the individual nanites, limited to the movements of at even their most advanced stage, strings, will be unable to complete any task at all, and will become a useless ball of junk.

You guys do realize that you have turned a discussion about which FICTIONAL RACE in a SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY GAME is the most advanced technologically into an ill-spirited pissing match over who's smarter and who would really win in the REAL WORLD right No need to be so serious. I feel you guys (as said before) are arguing a stalemate.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

4. Tyranids: they are actually on the same level as the Imperium, but their biotech is more limited as biology has stricter boundaries than mechanical technology.

This statement shows you have little to no understanding of biology, chemistry, or what bio-tech is capable of. Take some more classes and come back, biology offers endless advancement and boundless possibilities.

Pardon?

No really, pardon?

Did you really just insinuate that you could bioengineer a creature to function as well as any possible machine at the same task?

No, that's dumb.

A biological entity will always be restricted to chemical sources for energy, whereas a machine could very well run off of more intense and efficient in terms of amount of energy from a given amount of matter energy sources such as nuclear reactions for one thing.

Without telepathic hive mind shenanigans, biological organisms can never be as coordinated as an inter-locked network of machines. Pheromones, vocalizations, visual cues, all of these are inferior to the very types of communications used by something as simple as a cell phone.

A hard and fast limitation to the durability of anything organic is the need to get nutrients flowing to whatever organic structure you are developing, this induces structural weaknesses that machines don't have. There's a reason why bones are porous while you can have a slab of composites on a Tank.

So many of the problems that arise with bioengineering versus robotics is that with bioengineering, you ultimately have to make concessions to let the creature live, thus creating weaknesses. You need your organs, you need your metabolization, your overly large and not at all space efficient (by robot standards) brain, you can't use any of the really high end energy sources, you need to maintain a rather strict degree of hemeostasis, and so on so forth.

Whereas with a robot or hell, a mass of shapeshifting nanites, you can eliminate all the inefficiencies inherent to organic life that make them inferior platforms. You can work within a tolerance range that no organic matter can handle, you don't have to muck about with fickle chemistry or worry about biological agents, no need to muck about with DNA to make new designs, just blue-print out something to efficiently handle whatever job you want it to do and get it rolling out of production or assembled by nanomachines.

tl;dr: Genetic Engineering is so 1980s, the future is in Nanomachines, son.

Keep trying super troll, I find your uninformed musing to be quite entertaining. I would pit an army of microscopic insects against nano machines any day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also who says a brain can't give off/detect electromagnetic signals on its own?

I have a masters in Paleontology and took some courses in Nanotechnology. I know what I'm talking about, and the thing is, a mechanical hegemonizing swarm is going to be vastly larger and more efficient than an organic counterpart.

If I had a faction of robotic tyranid like enemies added to 40k, they'd quite quickly end up outnumbering the Tyranids by a massive margin because there's so much more material for the creation of inorganic devices than there is biomass for living beings.

Even disregarding nanotech, there is two trillion tons of biomass on the Earth, that's a big number right?

Well the Earth is primarily Iron and Nickel by weight when taken as a whole (the 50% oxygen, 25% silicon figure is mostly based on the crust), to the point where there is sextillions of tons of metal on the Earth.

That is literally a billion times more matter to work with.

So what the Tyranids would need to strip an entire galaxy of life to achieve, my robot doomswarm would need only a single planet.

And this doomswarm would keep on growing, and it can devour any planet or space rock, not just those with biomass or chemicals useful for organic life. So it can eat the whole solar system too, and then this swarm keeps on growing, devouring every solid object it finds, and by now dwarfs the Tyranids, Orks, and Humanity combined in terms of numbers.

When it runs into an inhabited planet, it can throw what amounts to the entire Tyranid genus with the most generous possible estimates, at this one single planet, and it would be at best a drop in the bucket of it's total resources.

I keep on going with this berserker von neumann nightmare until the entirety of the galaxy is cleansed of anything but these constantly adapting, geometrically self improving machines that can keep on building smarter and smarter versions of their own A.I to design more and more sophisticated technology.

Even without FTL I could clean the entire galaxy in a few million years, with FTL I'd overwhelm every faction in 40k in perhaps even a few centuries, even Chaos flickers and dies as I completely cleanse the galaxy of all life capable of emotion. Maybe I can even kill everyone sooner depending on how fast I can von neumann my way to victory.

So that's right, a competently designed von neumann swarm I literally just scribbled out a few minutes ago, would break the entire setting through simply outproducing everyone by a ridiculous margin until I can fairly say that I have more capital ships than the Imperium has guardsmen.

As for your nonsense about psychics, we have studied this for decades now, and every reputable source says that psychic powers are complete bunk on every single level. The theory is wrong, the evidence is not there or is outright falsified, Occam's razor and studies have shown that it's mostly down to stage tricks and being really good at groxgakking and cold reading people. If there were some, any mechanism that allowed for organic brains to pull a Yuri and start turning that pandora's box of electrical signals into a two way communicator then science hasn't found one.

And if you want to discuss "well, what if science was wrong" then I'm going to have to cut you short before you start furthering this bio-spank.

You are misinterpreting a great many statements I have made.

First that biomass can outnumber inorganic matter.
Quite to the contrary, I disagree that this is possible, but contend that inorganic matter can become used by biological entities to form new bodies, that is to say it is possible to have microbes that incorporate inorganic matter into their membranes, DNA, and organelles.

I am a biohacker in my free time, currently attempting to, and marginally succeeding in, producing cyanobacteria with more plastids. My goal is to increase the overall efficiency of cyanobacteria in terms of CO2 depletion and O2 production as a way to cheaply and efficiently replace oxygen scrubbers in space craft. If I am successful my cyanobacteria will in a few years allow our astronauts to breathe in space for far longer, and far more safely then they currently do.

Another project I am working on, something more of a pipe dream, is to create an organism that produces a large shell of thick carbon nano tubes. This organism will, if I have my way, replace our spacecraft, producing the entire completed hull of the craft with zero human oversight using CO2 as its primary tool to produce the hull.

I would like to see large organic carbon nano tube lined hydrogen ram jet ships piloting our race into the future.

Secondly about psychic powers;
I am a psychologist and Neurologist currently working towards my doctorate, I am intimately aware that humans or for that matter no other creature exhibits psychic behaviors of any kind. However I am also aware that a great many creatures are able to detect electromagnetic waves we can not (Bats, dogs, etc.), and fields we can not (Birds, and other migratory creatures). It is not unreasonable to say a group of creatures could call each other with their thoughts using radio waves. They could have bones that resonate at the right frequencies allowing them to even change the channels they are tuning into. Listening in to specific voices if you will. I suggest no magic, or immaterial forces at work, only what I know as a scientist.

It is not only possible, but likely that we will find life utilizing just about every form of matter we can conceive of somewhere in the galaxy. Creatures may eat uranium, move using plasma pulses, and see using magnetic fields. Life is a strange thing, and it will always evolve to best suit it's surroundings.

Bio-tech provides a way for us to increase the rate of reproduction, and evolution, to instantly produce anything we could need the moment we need it. We can control the rate of meiosis, the degradation of cells, and even the power output of mitochondria. The options are limitless.

As for your classes in nano tech, every field believes itself the best. I am on team bio and you are are team tech, only time will tell who wins and why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention even the largest nanite swarm can be foiled by a single frequency jammer set to the right frequency band. If they can not communicate the limited processing capabilities of the individual nanites, limited to the movements of at even their most advanced stage, strings, will be unable to complete any task at all, and will become a useless ball of junk.

You guys do realize that you have turned a discussion about which FICTIONAL RACE in a SCIENCE FICTION/FANTASY GAME is the most advanced technologically into an ill-spirited pissing match over who's smarter and who would really win in the REAL WORLD right No need to be so serious. I feel you guys (as said before) are arguing a stalemate.

I realized that immediately, but hey it was fun, and I had nothing better to do.

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

... the problem is, the poll doesn't let you vote for Orks, it makes you vote for Orcs, who are Faction Not-Appearing-In-This-Game.

1) Tyranids. If you can see past the gribblies, the Tyranids are what stands for a highly advanced civilization in most recent science fiction - A post-scarcity society of self-replicating machines led by a transcended consciousness, all gone terribly wrong. A grim reminder that you can't have an "unlimited offer" post-scarcity economy if you don't keep an eye on the ever expanding demand.

2) Necrons/Eldar. I see these two as roughly on par, perhaps with Necrons lagging slightly behind in some areas. Where Necrons have Living Metal, Eldar have Wraithbone. The Eldar have the Webway and a high degree of understanding of Warp phenomena, Necrons have mastered stasis and time manipulation. Necrons have biotransference, Eldar have infinity circuits and soulstones. That's where Necrons probably falter - biotransference was granted to them by the C'tan and, by the 41st millenium, they don't seem to remember much of it.

3) The Imperium of Man. A corporate nationalist theocratic monarchy desperately clinging to the remains of what other, more progressive human societies left behind. Still, the Imperium is not short on the tech department - many of their toys would make the United Federation of Planets cry in envy: Megascale manufacturing, life extension, AI, transhuman biology, miniaturization, knowledge of "exotic" phenomena... Sure, the Imperium no longer performs research, and social, political and economic concerns keep that tech from being evenly distributed, but the Imperium is still one of the major technological powers in the Galaxy.

4) Tau: The Tau have advanced technology, that's for sure. Advanced for our frame of reference but, in the 40k universe, most factions are capable of performing technological feats that are undistinguishable from magic.

Practical example: Tyranids are a collective sentience that dwells in a parallel dimension. Necrons and Eldar keep the souls of their dead stored in quasi-supernatural devices. The Imperium has knowledge of clinical immortality. The Tau can only store certain thought-patterns or engrams of a deceased person that more or less ensure that the recipient of this engramatic implant would think like the individual they were copied from. This is incredibly advanced for us. For the 40k races, it's almost crude.

?) Orks: They don't exactly care about technology. For Orks, technology is just means to an end. If that end requires energy weapons and giant walking constructs, their innate engineering capabilities will provide. If it requires spears and stones, they'll happily go with that.

When talking about tech I have been wondering if the IOM has been moving away from science based tech to psychic based tech like the Eldar have. I know that the IOM has no psychic based tech, but because humanity has been evolving into a psychic race like the Eldar (by this I mean every individual is a psyker) if given enough time and if they survive the civil war with the tech priests and the rest of the galaxy that the technology that humanity would come to use would be psych based like the Eldar. Food for thought.

Back on topic I would say Necrons and Eldar.

It's clearly Necrons, followed ages behind by the Tao. The Necrons were the most advanced race trillions of years before any other race exsisted and they still rule. The only reason they havn't already decimated the universe is because they lack the ability to use the warp and they lost their leader.

The answer can only be determined by comparing fluff, and given that the Necron's 5th edition retcon was performed by none other than Matt Ward himself, we can clearly state the Necrons are the pinnacle of existence, as decreed so, by their spiritual liege, Roboute Guilliman.



The Tau only appear so advanced because they are relatively unadvanced for the setting; we can recognize their technology for what it is. Keep in mind that they are based on a mix of feudal and late 1980's Japan, as seem by a Westerner.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

This... is stupid O.o

The only reason humans have made it so far is because we question everything (aside from that hiccup called 'religion' but we're getting over that sickness little by little). A culture such as the orks would have been wiped out before they left their own planet if not for their innate strength, resilience and ease of breading. Orks are a triumph of evolution not technology or culture or art or anything else that we see as important. All Orks can do is kill, reproduce and survive.

Nevzara wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I voted Orks. As to why, in the words of Uthan the Perverse, Eldar Philosopher

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

This.

This... is stupid O.o

The only reason humans have made it so far is because we question everything (aside from that hiccup called 'religion' but we're getting over that sickness little by little). A culture such as the orks would have been wiped out before they left their own planet if not for their innate strength, resilience and ease of breading. Orks are a triumph of evolution not technology or culture or art or anything else that we see as important. All Orks can do is kill, reproduce and survive.

As an atheist myself, I find your describing of religion as a sickness to be offensive and despicable and you ought to be ashamed.

In any case, the Old Ones tailored Ork culture and biology to feed off of one another to create the ultimate survivor species in their war against the Necrons. They still failed at protecting the Old Ones, but Orkoids have become the most successful group in the galaxy actually native to the galaxy by far.

I think we're better off leaving the religious discussion/slating for another time and place.

Thanks.

 reds8n wrote:
I think we're better off leaving the religious discussion/slating for another time and place.

Thanks.

Fair enough, I apologize for my comments.

Most advanced race? Tyranids.

Necrons duh, according to their new fluff they basically do everything and can do it better than anyone else. Time travel, doomsday weapons, immortal bodies...the only reason they dont own everything is because most of them are sleeping.

Break down of species characteristics, in no particular order:

Necrons: 24

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 4 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy, and can use pocket dimensions)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 2 (can produce blank slate soldiers)
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Eldar: 25

With easily the most advanced transportation tech in the game the Web Way, they can control when and where they fight. They have overcome death with wraith tech, and have regularly created whole worlds. The amount of power generation necessary to create a planet is insane, wither they are simply patient, or this is a relatively quick process. If it is quick, this is amazing, and their power tech must at least be at the level of a type two civilization. Their weapons tech is not as powerful as other races though, making them an easy target for conquest.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (Advanced art and social structure has completely overcome biology)
Transportation: 5 (Web Way.)
Power Creation: 4 (Needed to create planets)
Weapons: 3 (Lances are great, but not overly powerful)
Evolution: 2 (Long lives restrict evolutionary advancement)
Reproduction Rate: 2
Item Creation: 5 (Can will items into existence)

Tau: 23

Tau live short lives and thus evolve much faster than other races. This is evident in their technological advancement as their tech has and does quickly overcome any situation. They also appear to have a tactical brilliance bordering on super human. They have regularly outclassed other, more advanced races militarily with nothing, but tactics. Power production is at least on the level of a type one civilization as they have planet wide geothermal nets, however their transportation and weapons tech is in many ways less advanced than are those of other races.However their rail gun tech has made their fleet a force to be reckoned with and can easily and instantly cause a supernova.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (They have not only overcome biology, but have a thriving scientific and artistic sub class. Their diplomatic skills are second to not other race.)
Transportation: 2 (They only have basic FTL)
Power Creation: 3 (Geothermal Nets)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Rail guns and missiles baring artificial intelligence)
Evolution: 4 (They evolve much faster than other races.)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced materials, but require artisans to produce them)

Humanity: 23

Humanity is stagnant technologically, but still horribly advanced. Their tech includes warp transportation, extermination engines, and vast cities in space. They dwarf many races in power. Their super soldiers are barely beyond rudimentary tech, but they are extremely impressive despite this. Their culture is vibrant, but close minded, and xenophobic, it seems to be designed to preserve the statuesque.

Over all:
Culture: 3 (Advanced and vibrant, but close minded and stagnant)
Transportation: 4 (Warp drive)
Power Creation: 3 (Terra is at least type one)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Titans and extermination engines)
Evolution: 3 (Rather standard life spanes and reproduction rates)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced metals, but require an expansive industrial infrastructure)

Tyranids: 24

The commander of multiple galaxies and a master of genetic manipulation the hive mind rains supreme as the single most powerful being in the universe thus far. Nothing is said about their power supply or capability, so we will assume that this massively impressive feat was achieved by a type zero civilization. The hive mind does however control both the rate of evolution and reproduction of its many bodies, and can manipulate them to meet any need.

Overall:
Culture: 1 (The Hive Mind is a single entity and thus is stagnant culturally)
Transportation: 4 (It has the ability to travel between galaxies though there is no true explanation as to how.)
Power Creation: 2 (The Hive is type zero, but its ability to translate biomass into usable energy is second to none.)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Can instantly evolve the perfect weapon for any engagement)
Evolution: 5 (Controls its own rate of evolution)
Reproduction Rate: 5 (At will)
Item Creation: 4 (Advanced materials created at will, but require spawn pools)

Orks: 17

Impressively numerous and determined to win any and all wars, orks are the perfect weapon. They have shown limited diplomatic skills, and a deep social structure, but for the most part "Da biggest is da boss." Their ability to travel is impressive, but the randomness of it must be taken into consideration.

Overall:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 2 (Warp travel, but random)
Power Creation: 1 (They are the type zeroest of the type zeros)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Their own fists represent some of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy.)
Evolution: 1 (They have never evolved, and don't care to even think about it.)
Reproduction Rate: 5
Item Creation: 2 (Inferior materials, only assembled by the engineer cast)

The funniest thing about this post is the Ork players here. If the ork players were to actually just believe they had the best of anything they would have the best. Their power is only limited by their thought process. If enough orks believed that the sky was pink it would turn pink. There is no power stronger than that of the power of the ork hordes. To even suggest another group is equivalent to them is insane. I'm just so glad just like the ork players and the ork horde has not yet decided to believe in their ultimate power. Ork weaponry does not work. It's the orks belief in their weaponry that makes it work. They are the only race that is limited purely by their imagination. Every other race has to overcome technology. Orks just have to believe in theirs.

Conclusion:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Tau/Tyranids
3rd: Humanity
4th: Necrons
5th: Orks

That sort of rating system is terrible IMO.

You're more than welcome to create your own, I would love to see what you come up with. I was surprised at my result. I firmly believe the Necrons are more advanced than the Eldar, and the Tyranids are more advanced than both. But my results were different.

Necrons, by far.



However, Dark Age of Technology humans weren't too shabby either, apparently.

Also, I believe you might be mistaken with your analysis on the necrons.

For transport, Necrons can travel via pocket dimensions and space time manipulation (Deathmarks / Veil of Darkness) and they can hack into the webway via Dolmen Gates (not too shabby for a non psychic race). They can also form small wormholes in their vehicles to instantly bring in reinforcements from their tomb worlds.

Culturally, the necrons have a rigid hierarchy, and whilst the Warrior variant is certainly mindless, the more advanced forms (deathmarks, Praetorians, Crypteks, etc) certainly have a distinct intelligence, and are NOT insane.
Trazyn and the Stormlord are not crazy. Trazyn might be on the eccentric side, but he is nothing like Kulkath (or whatever his name is) or Zandrekh.

Reproduction...theoretically, they can just copy a conscientious and put it in another body, since they are machines. We haven't seen anything like that, so we don't know. They certainly are not able to reproduce the conventional way, however.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Break down of species characteristics, in no particular order:

Necrons: 21

Highly advanced destructive capabilities and mastery over time itself. Implied high power production as a result of the need to have infinity plus one power to overcome relativity. No sign or explanation as to how they over came this power supply need other than magic. Destructive capabilities reveal an affinity for destruction that outclasses any other race, however the ability goes unexplained and stands beyond any form of physics, explanation for this power as well must be declared as magic.

Over all I would rate them:
Culture: 2 (Most of them are nothing but blank slates, the few who are not are insane)
Transportation: 3 (Mastery of FTL and time make long distance travel easy)
Power Creation: 5? (They must have something amazing to power their equipment, but nothing particular is mentioned)
Weapons: 5 (Can blow up stars with magic)
Evolution: 1 (They are stagnant and have opted out of the evolutionary process)
Reproduction Rate: 1
Item Creation: 4? (They have advanced metals, but must create their items through industrial like processes)

Eldar: 25

With easily the most advanced transportation tech in the game the Web Way, they can control when and where they fight. They have overcome death with wraith tech, and have regularly created whole worlds. The amount of power generation necessary to create a planet is insane, wither they are simply patient, or this is a relatively quick process. If it is quick, this is amazing, and their power tech must at least be at the level of a type two civilization. Their weapons tech is not as powerful as other races though, making them an easy target for conquest.

Over all:
Culture: 4 (Advanced art and social structure has completely overcome biology)
Transportation: 5 (Web Way.)
Power Creation: 4 (Needed to create planets)
Weapons: 3 (Lances are great, but not overly powerful)
Evolution: 2 (Long lives restrict evolutionary advancement)
Reproduction Rate: 2
Item Creation: 5 (Can will items into existence)

Tau: 24

Tau live short lives and thus evolve much faster than other races. This is evident in their technological advancement as their tech has and does quickly overcome any situation. They also appear to have a tactical brilliance bordering on super human. They have regularly outclassed other, more advanced races militarily with nothing, but tactics. Power production is at least on the level of a type one civilization as they have planet wide geothermal nets, however their transportation and weapons tech is in many ways less advanced than are those of other races.However their rail gun tech has made their fleet a force to be reckoned with and can easily and instantly cause a supernova.

Over all:
Culture: 5 (They have not only overcome biology, but have a thriving scientific and artistic sub class. Their diplomatic skills are second to not other race.)
Transportation: 2 (They only have basic FTL)
Power Creation: 3 (Geothermal Nets)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Rail guns and missiles baring artificial intelligence)
Evolution: 4 (They evolve much faster than other races.)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced materials, but require artisans to produce them)

Humanity: 23

Humanity is stagnant technologically, but still horribly advanced. Their tech includes warp transportation, extermination engines, and vast cities in space. They dwarf many races in power. Their super soldiers are barely beyond rudimentary tech, but they are extremely impressive despite this. Their culture is vibrant, but close minded, and xenophobic, it seems to be designed to preserve the statuesque.

Over all:
Culture: 3 (Advanced and vibrant, but close minded and stagnant)
Transportation: 4 (Warp drive)
Power Creation: 3 (Terra is at least type one)
Weapons Tech: 4 (Titans and extermination engines)
Evolution: 3 (Rather standard life spanes and reproduction rates)
Reproduction Rate: 3
Item Creation: 3 (Advanced metals, but require an expansive industrial infrastructure)

Tyranids: 24

The commander of multiple galaxies and a master of genetic manipulation the hive mind rains supreme as the single most powerful being in the universe thus far. Nothing is said about their power supply or capability, so we will assume that this massively impressive feat was achieved by a type zero civilization. The hive mind does however control both the rate of evolution and reproduction of its many bodies, and can manipulate them to meet any need.

Overall:
Culture: 1 (The Hive Mind is a single entity and thus is stagnant culturally)
Transportation: 4 (It has the ability to travel between galaxies though there is no true explanation as to how.)
Power Creation: 2 (The Hive is type zero, but its ability to translate biomass into usable energy is second to none.)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Can instantly evolve the perfect weapon for any engagement)
Evolution: 5 (Controls its own rate of evolution)
Reproduction Rate: 5 (At will)
Item Creation: 4 (Advanced materials created at will, but require spawn pools)

Orks: 17

Impressively numerous and determined to win any and all wars, orks are the perfect weapon. They have shown limited diplomatic skills, and a deep social structure, but for the most part "Da biggest is da boss." Their ability to travel is impressive, but the randomness of it must be taken into consideration.

Overall:
Culture: 3
Transportation: 2 (Warp travel, but random)
Power Creation: 1 (They are the type zeroest of the type zeros)
Weapons Tech: 3 (Their own fists represent some of the most powerful weapons in the galaxy.)
Evolution: 1 (They have never evolved, and don't care to even think about it.)
Reproduction Rate: 5
Item Creation: 2 (Inferior materials, only assembled by the engineer cast)

I like the set up you have here on rating the races there are a few things that I disagree with though.
Eldar I would say get a five on their weapons for they have do have titans and I'm sure that they do have weapons that can exterminate a planet. I mean these guys have fought the Necrons for a long time I'm pretty sure that they have to have some serious fire power.

Tau I would put culture at a four due to the fact that the are split into five different groups that are not allowed to interbreed at all or go from one caste to another caste. Also if one of your castes by some really bad luck gets completely wiped out you have no one with the ability to come in and do that job and your society quickly falls apart. I would also put their evolution at a three because of the warp storm that engulfed their region of space for 6000years (as far as I know this fluff is still good and has not been discounted and it is in the old Tau codex) So their evolution which appears to be advancing at an alarming rate might not in fact be advancing beyond the average rate do to this storm which could have caused time for the Tau to speed up possibly by 1000s of years.


Humanity I would give a four on reproduction rate as there are just so freaking many of them. They have come to war zones out numbering the Orks.

Orks I would give a four and be pushing for a five on their culture due to the fact that Orks always know who is in charge, their economy is always stable, and their society is entirely self-sufficient. Yeah their is no real growth in anything other than warfare, but hey do you really need it when your society doesn't suffer from any of the other problems that every other race struggles with.

Actually, no. Eldar Weapons tech is advanced, but much like the Old Ones, not as advanced as the Necrons. However, what does give them an advantage is their mobility; Eldar can react and move much faster than Necrons, allowing them to quickly flank and apply pressure when needed.

Necrons also have Titans and Large Scale SHV by the way; we just haven't seen them yet. We've only seen a small portion of their armory.

Ah true forgot about that with the Necrons.

 Toburk wrote:
The answer can only be determined by comparing fluff, and given that the Necron's 5th edition retcon was performed by none other than Matt Ward himself, we can clearly state the Necrons are the pinnacle of existence, as decreed so, by their spiritual liege, Roboute Guilliman.

But still they cry, for they know that they can never be ULTRAMARINES!



Also, the Orks are clearly the most advanced. No other race has yet succeeded in creating a absolutely perfect society for their race. (altough one could argue that they were created as such by the Old Ones and didn't do anything themselves)
1. Orks (Their society is perfect (for Orks at least ) and their technology is very adaptable and can be created from scratch.)
2. Necrons (Their society is lacking on a number of points, but their technology borders on magic)
3. Eldar (Extremely advanced technology and their society functions really well, they are on 3 due to the Fall)
4. Humans (Highly advanced technology, their society is flawed and far from perfect but it does not have any real weaknesses. Their dogmatic religion keeps them from advancing, but it also allows them to survive. Their major flaw is that they do no longer understand much of their own technology.)
5. Tau (Their technology is less complicated and not as advanced as those of other races (they even lack FTL travel) but they have a lot of potential for advancing. Their society functions well, but the caste system and reliance on the Ethereals are major weaknesses)
6. Tyranids (They are hard to rate at all since they lack a higher form of consciousness and rely on their instincts. They are closer to animals than sentient creatures and do not use tools. Their reliance on the Hive Mind for higher thinking is also a major weakness.)

Chaos is not rateable since the Warp defies the 'normal' laws of the 40k universe.

This has been an interesting read. I started only skimming at the point that it got a little snippy so forgive me if my points below have been covered, but here's my thoughts:

So efficiency of power plants and total power output is meaningless.
Size of empire is meaningless.
Art and culture are meaningless.
And diplomatic skill and social structure are meaningless.
Adaptability and ingenuity are meaningless.

What seems to matter to war gamers:
Weapon Tech.
Transportation Tech.

You seem to take issue with gamers rating transportation so highly. The thing is though, when you're talking about interstellar societies, transportation is the number one thing that will enable or hamper all of the other things you listed. It doesn't even have to be about combat either. In a universe where races can almost instantly be anywhere at any time, if you're just plugging along at only "near light speed" you are at a serious disadvantage. Everywhere you go someone else will already be there. You will be forever playing catchup. When you consider all of the other factors you list, I would still rate the Tau highly, but certainly not a tie for number two based solely on their lack of FTL travel.

This is also one of the reasons I would say 'Nids can't be number two either. Part of the reason most of the Hive fleets ahve struggled is because of the fact that you know you have a good while before a sizeable 'Nid force gets anywhere and they aren't going to stop/turn on a dime the way a society with FTL/Webway/Warp travel could. Additionally, to your argument about efficiency of powerplants - the 'Nids are actually remarkably inneficient IMO. They need to consume entire star systems to fuel themselves. Again, one of the reasons some of the Hive Fleets have struggled is because they were nearly out of bio-fuel and had to fight strong resistance befoer they were ready. They are in fact incapable of generating their own power the way the other races can. They are actually parasitic and playing a zero sum game. Once the bio-mass in one area is consumed, they HAVE to move on or they will starve to death. They cannot tap into the warp or use any other kind of power/energy. Extrappalating that out, if what we have in the universe now are just 'Nid scouting fleets and the "tiny" scouting fleets need that much fuel, could our universe even contain enough fuel to sustain the main 'Nid fleet? Doubt it.


For my votes - I would say in terms of "society" - ORKs all the way for reasons already mentioned. What hey have just works.
In terms of hard tech, I have to give that to the Necrons.

My previous post is updated:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Necrons/Tyranids
3rd: Humanity/Tau
4th: Orks

My previous post is updated:

1st: Eldar
2nd: Necrons/Tyranids
3rd: Humanity/Tau
4th: Orks

I can definitley see arguments for the Eldar being number one and the 'Crons being number two. I'd personally probably rate Tau/Humanity as #4, with Orks as #3. Humanity has a lot of cool tech but they can't really fix a lot of it properly and they are in a stage of deline to where they can't really even invent things anymore. They have to rely on stumbling across old drawings in order to do something new. On the other hand, like I said, they have some crazy strong tech and FTL so I can still see them being ranked. Tau probably are a little more advanced (than humanity) in a lot of ways but again, lack of proper FTL hampers them so being tied with humanity makes sense to me.

The 'Nids I just can't get with. A mark of intelligence isn't just adaptation, but also anticipation. The ability to predict what may come and be prepared for it. While the nids are great at rapidly evolving responses to things that hurt them ... they have yet to show an ability to anticipate an enemy and develop a pre-emptive response to a threat. They are only reacting. IMO this places them only slightly higher on the chain than an ant colony. Larger, more dangerous? Yes. More advanced? Not really no. Also, again, by some of the requirements you;ve listed, the nids fail. They don't produce anything. They just consume. Once what they'vre consumed is gone - so are they. There is no true innovation. They are just parasites.

Who's the greenest? Seems pretty straight forward to me *shrug*

Eldar. Obviously. They commanded Black holes to do their bidding like a race of Time Lords and they told the cosmos what to do.

Beat THAT.

The hive mind uses Genestealers as shock troops to infiltrate and weaken technologicaly advanced races... They learn the ways of these cultures so thoroughly they fool them into letting them into positions of power... Does this not count as forethought and planning?