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OK we are only talking LVL1 sorcerers but I like the idea of making him enhance the rubrics.

1. As long as the sorcerer is alive they are considered relentless instead of S&P and overwatch at BS 2/
2. Sorcerer does not roll for any powers. Instead when he powers up his force weapon all rubric bolters are +1 S.

Is there any reason we're restricted to ML1 Sorcerers? The Thousand Sons are defined by psychic potential.

Let's consider Ahriman -- he created the Rubric!

You'd think he'd have some kind of synergy with a Rubricae retinue, wouldn't you?

Okay valid fluff arguement. Batsh### crazy if we are talking fixing a unit selection in CSM codex with other options remaining valid. Take the 1000 Sons War Cabal and add your ASPIRING sorcerers in charge of keeping the rubrics pointing and shooting in the right direction. Stop arguing for LVL 2.3 or 4 ASPIRING sorcerers or we can open up the argument to lowly warlocks being placed over guardians... I mean why not spiritseers they are just lvl 2.

IF you want a broken selection lets go back to 3rd Ed 1000k sons and arm them all with kai guns led by lvl 3 Ahriman wannabes and of course cost 300 points with a free landraider with machine spirit because afterall Ahriman is the greatest.

Edited - I meant for Independent Characters, who might also represent Thousand Sons.

Ahriman or any Thousand Sons Sorcerer HQ really shouldn't have less synergy with Rubricae than an Aspiring Sorcerer.

DAaddict wrote:
Okay valid fluff arguement. Batsh### crazy if we are talking fixing a unit selection in CSM codex with other options remaining valid. Take the 1000 Sons War Cabal and add your ASPIRING sorcerers in charge of keeping the rubrics pointing and shooting in the right direction. Stop arguing for LVL 2.3 or 4 ASPIRING sorcerers or we can open up the argument to lowly warlocks being placed over guardians... I mean why not spiritseers they are just lvl 2.

IF you want a broken selection lets go back to 3rd Ed 1000k sons and arm them all with kai guns led by lvl 3 Ahriman wannabes and of course cost 300 points with a free landraider with machine spirit because afterall Ahriman is the greatest.

That's why I've dropped the idea of even hoping for upgrades such as super blasty heavy bolters or kai guns - the forthcoming new models from GW are almost certainly NOT going to include any near gear, as GW will likely not want to utterly invalidate their current codex unit entry.

Hence why it'd simply be better to just make their Inferno Bolts deadlier... And as the entire CSM codex lacks a decent counter to MC's beyond just 'spam that plasma!', why not give the bolts slightly higher strength AND the potential to inflict multiple wounds!? (oh, and make Spawns, because you can't be truly Tzeentchian without farming new friends!)

And again, I wholly agree - no more than Mastery Lv1 for the Aspiring/Acolyte Sorcerers!
These guys are the lowest rankings of the psychic Marines who made up the original Legion. While they may be 'on par' with the likes of your typical Wyrdboy or Codicier or basic Astropath, they're nowhere close to the level of the actual Cabal members of the Legion, who had their own powers greatly increased to boot when the Rubric was cast.
Hence, Lv1, while the 'true' Sorcerers of the remaining Thousand Sons Legion are the HQ's who can go up to Lv3.

And no to the idea of a secondary 'Lore of Magnus' for simply buffing 1kSons squads... Just make the Tzeentch lore into a proper lore of it's own, and give a couple rules to the Aspiring Sorc which act as passive buffs to the unit as a whole, at least until he's dead.


2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1/Witchfire - SD6+1/ap4, Template, Torrent


3. Bolt of Change (as codex: Daemons)

4. Glean Magic WC2/Witchfire - 18"/special
Can only be used to target a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. If successfully cast, both the caster & their target roll a D6 and add their Mastery Level to the roll. If the caster scores higher, the target suffers an automatic S3/ap2 Ignores Cover hit with the Warpflame rule, and immediately forgets one randomly chosen psychic power.
If the caster does not already know this spell, then he immediately gains it and cast it just like any of his other powers. Once the caster attempts to cast his stolen spell, it is destroyed and is immediately discarded.


5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2/Nova - 9"/SD3+2/ap4/Assault 2D6, Ignores Cover

6. Infernal Gateway WC2/Witchfire - 18"/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1, Blast, Ignores Cover
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining the power's strength, use the Large Blast marker instead.

*Note: All powers have the Warpflame special rule (as codex: Daemons)

[/spoiler]
I really don't see how anyone could claim these as obnoxious/OP and/or hugely unfluffy...
It's probably also along the lines of the best we could potentially hope fore, since there's almost certainly better odds of the Maple Loafs winning the Cup next year, than of GW suddenly making new weapon upgrades for 1kSons.

What would be OP however, is giving the unit anti-MC + anti-vehicle abilities, alongside a unit champ that's on the level of an HQ Sorc who also gets boosted and/or is immune to being picked out.
Oh, and squad-wide ranged Force attacks... that kind of BS needs to simply burn in a (warpflame) fire!

Hey, apparently Daemon Magnus is coming, so I wouldn't rule anything out yet

Your reasoning behind not having Heavy Bolters as an upgrade is lame, 626. Lots of kits don't have all the options; you pick the bitz from elsewhere.

The biggest issue is that a ML1 Sorcerer with no special abilities and mediocre psychic powers is dead weight. Each Aspiring Sorcerer is adding 58pts to the unit and can't possibly compete against better Psykers. What's more valuable -- a ML3 Tzeentch Herald with Paradox, that can guarantee Summoning on 5 dice each turn? Or two ML1 Sorcerers that can't even generate outside their marked power? You are getting killed on opportunity cost.

S4 AP3 is already great anti-MEQ. In terms of anti-MC, S5 Inferno Bolts and a Toughness test would help... but you're still looking at ~100 Shots to down a WK or Stormsurge, and against a 2+ Riptide with Stim you'd need more than 200. That's assuming none of the Gift of Mutation wounds are saved by FNP, and we don't risk Warpflame because we're unlikely to burst the unit down.

Now if each TS squad consists of a Sorcerer and 4x Rubrics, in a 6 turn game, you'd need about ~300pts of Thousand Sons rapid-firing every single turn to kill a Sword/Shield WK. You'd need about ~600pts to put down a Riptide. You might want transports, so add another 70-140pts before upgrades. Meanwhile... isn't T4 2W 5++ actually even more vulnerable to S8+ templates? You're now less survivable to IA Riptides and Battle Cannons, like you might find on a Knight Warden.

You could add 5W and you wouldn't resolve this problem. So I'm not 100% convinced it's a fix at this point.

RUBRIC MARINES ... 140 points

Rubricae WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A1 Ld10 Sv 3+
Philosophus WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld10 Sv 3+

UNIT TYPE:
Infantry.  Philosophus is Infantry (Character).

UNIT COMPOSITION:
4 Rubricae
1 Philosophus

WARGEAR:
Power armour
Boltgun (Rubricae only)
Bolt pistol (Philosophus only)
Force weapon (Philosophus only)

SPECIAL RULES:
All Is Dust
Champion of Chaos (Philosophus only)
Independent Character (Philosophus only)
Mark of Tzeentch
Psyker (Mastery Level 1) (Philosophus only)
The Enumerations (Philosophus only)
The Sorcerer Commands
Veterans of the Long War (Philosophus only)

All Is Dust: Models without the Champion of Chaos special rule have the Fearless and Slow and Purposeful special rules.  Every time a Psyker with this special rule would normally roll on the Chaos Boon table, he may instead gain a psychic power generated from the Discipline of Tzeentch in addition to any powers he already knows.
Mark of Tzeentch: Models with the Mark of Tzeentch add +1 to their Invulnerable Save (to a minimum of 6+).  At the beginning of any of their Psychic Phases a Psyker with the Mark of Tzeentch may choose to discard any number of psychic powers previously generated from the Discipline of Tzeentch and replace them with an equal number of new powers generated from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.
The Enumerations: A Psyker with this special rule generates D3 Warp Charges per Mastery Level.  When taking a Psychic test the Psyker may discard any number of successfully harnessed Warp Charge dice.  Discarded dice are disregarded entirely and do not count for the purposes of manifesting powers, determining if the Psyker has suffered Perils of the Warp or resolving Deny the Witch tests.
The Sorcerer Commands: The Philosophus must be deployed with the unit and cannot leave it during the course of the game.  The Philosophus must reroll all failed Look Out Sir! rolls.
PSYKER:
The Philosophus generates powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy and Tzeentch disciplines.
OPTIONS:
●  May add up to fifteen Rubricae ... 18 pts/model

● The Philosophus may be upgraded to Psyker (Mastery Level 2) ... 25 pts

● The Philosophus may items from the Special Issue Wargear and Chaos Rewards lists.
● One model in the unit may take an Icon of flame ... 15 pts

● The unit may select a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport ... 35 pts


DISCIPLINE OF TZEENTCH

Primaris Power
Tzeentch's Firestorm
Per Codex: Chaos Daemons.

1. Flickering Fire ... Warp Charge 1 - 3
Per Codex: Chaos Daemons.

2. Boon of Mutation ... Warp Charge 1
Per Codex: Chaos Space Marines but without the S4 hit.
3. Doombolt ... Warp Charge 1
Per Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

4. Breath of Chaos ... Warp Charge 2
Per Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

5. Flesh-change ... Warp Charge 2
Flesh-change is a focussed witchfire with a range of 6".  The target must pass a Toughness test or suffer a Wound with no armour or cover saves allowed.  If the target is slain place a friendly unengaged unit consisting of a single Chaos Spawn within 6" of the slain model and more than 1" from enemy models.  If the Chaos Spawn cannot be placed just remove the slain model as normal.  This power has no effect on vehicles.

6. The Twisting Path ... Warp Charge 3
The Twisting Path is a blessing that targets the Psyker and remains in effect for the rest of the game.  If at the end of the game the Psyker has been removed as a casualty the opposing player scores an additional Victory Point.  If not, the controlling player scores an additional Victory Point.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The biggest issue is that a ML1 Sorcerer with no special abilities and mediocre psychic powers is dead weight. Each Aspiring Sorcerer is adding 58pts to the unit and can't possibly compete against better Psykers. What's more valuable -- a ML3 Tzeentch Herald with Paradox, that can guarantee Summoning on 5 dice each turn? Or two ML1 Sorcerers that can't even generate outside their marked power? You are getting killed on opportunity cost.

S4 AP3 is already great anti-MEQ. In terms of anti-MC, S5 Inferno Bolts and a Toughness test would help... but you're still looking at ~100 Shots to down a WK or Stormsurge, and against a 2+ Riptide with Stim you'd need more than 200. That's assuming none of the Gift of Mutation wounds are saved by FNP, and we don't risk Warpflame because we're unlikely to burst the unit down.

Now if each TS squad consists of a Sorcerer and 4x Rubrics, in a 6 turn game, you'd need about ~300pts of Thousand Sons rapid-firing every single turn to kill a Sword/Shield WK. You'd need about ~600pts to put down a Riptide. You might want transports, so add another 70-140pts before upgrades. Meanwhile... isn't T4 2W 5++ actually even more vulnerable to S8+ templates? You're now less survivable to IA Riptides and Battle Cannons, like you might find on a Knight Warden.

You could add 5W and you wouldn't resolve this problem. So I'm not 100% convinced it's a fix at this point.

In a totally GW kind of way +10 for an aspiring champion, +15 for a force weapon and +25 for a sorceerer level so +50. But I agree either the sorcerer is overpriced or the rubrics are overpriced for what they do. I would rather pay for CSM with MOT and then +50 for a sorcerer with a 1 WC spell that enhances their save to 4+ and transforms their bolts to AP3/. It would be cheaper and at least the sorcerer would contribute something.

Some very cool ideas there, Abadabadoobadon. "The Enumerations" in particular, that rule is super solid.

DAaddict wrote:
I would rather pay for CSM with MOT and then +50 for a sorcerer with a 1 WC spell that enhances their save to 4+ and transforms their bolts to AP3/. It would be cheaper and at least the sorcerer would contribute something.

If we use Ahriman and Aspiring Sorcerers as a model, a Thousand Sons sorcerer is basically ---> Aura of Dark Glory, Mark of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolts, VotLW. So it's a 35pt upgrade package to the normal CSM sorc, who unlocks Rubric Marines as a retinue. Aspiring Sorcerers could become optional (or remain mandatory for an army without a Thousand Sons HQ).

At any rate a new plastic kit is on the way, so it'll be interesting to see if GW attempts a fix.