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 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
I like AP3 Force because it makes the Sorceror relevant

Agreed. What did you think of my overall suggestion?

How about:

S 4, AP 3, ignores cover, soul blaze and force
Permit 1 heavy bolter with inferno rounds per 5 man squad.

I don't really think that fleshbane fits with the thousand sons theme. They are firing magical flaming bullets.

At that point, we could make them roughly points equivalent to a comparable grey knights squad.

 Traditio wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
I like AP3 Force because it makes the Sorceror relevant

Agreed. What did you think of my overall suggestion?

How about:

S 4, AP 3, ignores cover, soul blaze and force
Permit 1 heavy bolter with inferno rounds per 5 man squad.

I don't really think that fleshbane fits with the thousand sons theme. They are firing magical flaming bullets.

At that point, we could make them roughly points equivalent to a comparable grey knights squad.

Interesting. Chaos Grey Knights. Maybe add more BoP/S instead of just Psykers?

Chaos Spawn wrote:Interesting. Chaos Grey Knights. Maybe add more BoP/S instead of just Psykers?

I thought of this, but I don't think so.

Rubric marines aren't sorcerers. They're automata.

Any magic is coming from the sorcerer, not from them.

And I think that's about right. If you manage to kill the sorcerer, rubric marines should become less effective.

Edit:

But yes, if you read the description of thousand sons, that's what they basically are; they're a chaos version of gray knights. The rub is that they stopped being "real" marines because of Ahriman's rubric. So the only real "gray knights", now, are the sorcerers leading them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come to think of it:

If you bumped up the sorcerer to ML 2 and made those changes (ignores cover, soul blaze, force and AP3)...

You could probably keep a thousand sons squad at their current points cost (150 for the 5 man squad)...

...and they could be considered worth taking.

For the sake of simplicity, you could probably give them a slight points bump. 25 ppm for each rubric marine and 60 points flat for the sorcerer.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Experiment wrote:But honestly, Force + Fleshbane is hugely game-breaking... Wounding on 2's with Instant Death attacks is too good. You may as well just FAQ every non-GMC multi-wound unit out of the game at that point.

Devil's advocate:

It's at 24 inch range.

Are you really afraid of fleshbane, instant death bolters at 24 inch range?

What if we had it as the 4+ fleshbane discussed earlier?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about we change Inferno Bolts to read the following:
The weapons of the Thousand Sons are imbued with sorcerous flames that melt through flesh, armour and soul in an instant, and, when enhanced by the powers of a Psyker, they can fell any foe.

A model with Inferno Bolts counts all Boltguns, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters as AP3, and these weapons always wound on a 4+. In addition, these weapons gain the Soul Blaze and Force special rules. Finally, a model firing Inferno Bolts reduces the Invulnerable save of its target by 1.

 Traditio wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 rollawaythestone wrote:
I like AP3 Force because it makes the Sorceror relevant

Agreed. What did you think of my overall suggestion?

How about:

S 4, AP 3, ignores cover, soul blaze and force
Permit 1 heavy bolter with inferno rounds per 5 man squad.

I don't really think that fleshbane fits with the thousand sons theme. They are firing magical flaming bullets.

At that point, we could make them roughly points equivalent to a comparable grey knights squad.

You people really have absolutely no concept of actual game balance, do you?

1. Yes, 30" threat range, with Force shooting that wounds anything not a GMC on a 2+ is OP as hell. Congratulations, you've just nerfed every multi-wound unit & MC utterly into the ground.

2. 4+ Fleshbane + Force is still too good, especially considering a) the sheer amount of WC's a Thousand Sons/CSM army in general (with possible Daemon allies) can put on the table, and, b) the vast majority of multi-wound units are both typically very pts heavy AND typically do not sport 2+ (or even 3+!) saves.
Considering we're talking about a unit that can easily be made into Troops (and thus easily spammed), having that much ranged Force would be putting CSM's on a level just below D-Scythe spam Eldar.

3. Adding even more obnoxiousness such as -1 to invulns, (when we have an entire army who rely almost entirely on invuln saves), and/or Ignores Cover on a ap3 + Force ranged attack, isn't helping matters in the slightest.



Ranged Force attacks should be ultra rare, because they really are that powerful. (only Str.D is better)

The Grey Knight ranged Force abilities are kept in check by;
a) the main weapon that can spam the ability is a 24" Heavy class weapon
b) Dreadknights are limited in numbers, and quite expensive
c) no matter what version it is, the Psilencer is only ever S4 w/no AP. Hence, you rely entirely on weight of fire, instead of getting to automatically insta-gib a 2+ save MC every single turn.

And if we *really* need proof as to just how dumb a 2+ to-wound Force weapon, or 4+ to-wound/ap3 Force weapon would be, let's try this out;
1 Sorcerer + 5 Thousand Sons, rapid firing into a Riptide w/Fleshbane + Force bolts...
- 10 shots @BS4 = 7 hits
- 7 hits, wounding on 2's = 6 wounds
- 2+ save = 5 saves succeed, w/1 failed, thus dead Riptide.

1 Sorcerer + 5 Thousand Sons, rapid firing into a 3+ save Str.D Bloodthirster w/Fleshbane 4+/ap3 + Ignores Cover bolts...
- 10 shots @BS4 = 7 hits
- 7 hits, wounding on 4's = 3.5 wounds (we'll be nice even, and say only 3 wound!)
- 3 wounds vs. 5++ = 1 passed save, thus, ultra dead Str.D Bloodthirster

TL/DR; ranged Force that's plentiful and comes loaded with added special rules such as better odds to wound, low ap, Ignores Cover, etc... is stupidly broken.

"- 2+ save = 5 saves succeed, w/1 failed, thus dead Riptide. "

I don't see the problem, given that the Riptide does the same thing to my squads. Feth MCs. Maybe if there were an efficient way to get them off the table, they wouldn't be spammed so hard.

Force is to multiwound models what blasts are to multiple 1W models. Yet you don't hear any moaning about blasts because they are too common to nerf.

Experiment:

Under my proposal, Thousand Sons wouldn't automatically be wounding on 4+ or 2+. My proposal comes without flesh bane. The rounds remain S4 (regular bolters) and S5 (for the heavy bolter) respectively.

ML 2 Sorcerer
4 rubric marines (may add more)

Regular bolters and bolt pistols, but add AP 3, ignore cover, soul blaze and force.

60 point sorcerer.
25 points per marine

Add 1 heavy bolter with the above inferno bolt statline per squad for 10 points.

Add rhino for 35 points.

You think that's still broken?

We're talking 205 points for a 5 man squad with heavy bolter in a rhino.

Can you cast force in a rhino?

Thousand Sons should also have a special rule that allows them to cast force on their inferno rounds while in a rhino.

Yeah, Fleshbane or wound on 4+ is too much. Ap3 with Force is strong and probably adequate - lower their points, and give some cool powers to the sorceror and I think you're good. Ignores Cover would help represent their flaming shots, but is maybe too effective and steps on the toes of the Noise marines.

 rollawaythestone wrote:
Yeah, Fleshbane or wound on 4+ is too much. Ap3 with Force is strong and probably adequate - lower their points, and give some cool powers to the sorceror and I think you're good. Ignores Cover would help represent their flaming shots, but is maybe too effective and steps on the toes of the Noise marines.

I'm under the impression that what Noise marines are "all about" is less ignore cover and more pinning?

There's no reason they can't both have ignore cover.

Noise marines can ignore cover because trees don't really block sound that well.

Thousand sons can ignore cover because fire.

In fact, let's think about this:

Noise marines should get: pinning, ignore cover and concussive
Thousand sons: force, ignore cover and soul blaze

Holy crap you kids have no concept of game balance. I'll make a Rubric fix when I get home that isn't so extreme.

Well, the new Tzeentch got a D-strength witchfire.

Why not give them a Lib Conclave type thing, where they harness on a 2+ and share the powers they know? You could even give their random Tzeentch witchfires a +1 Str boost for every squad on the board.

I diced this out with 3x Squads, unfortunately didn't get the D but would still have thrown out a S7-13 AP2 beam, or S7-13 AP1 3" blast. Harnessing on a 2+ that's really not that bad, lots of potential to ID multiwound T5 targets, and force weapons for backup.

Still horribly vulnerable to AP- wound spam, but that's different than their issues on offense.

Here's a quick fix.
1. Up to two Rubric Marines can trade their Bolter to Heavy Bolters and Autocannons with Inferno Bolts for 10 points each.
2. So long as the Sorcerer is still alive, at the beginning of your turn you can choose to confer one of the following benefits until the beginning of your next turn.
a. Fun Fluff Name #1 - The squad has Relentless and fires Snap Shots at full Ballistic Skill.
b. Fun Fluff Name #2 - Enemies fired at by this squad must reroll successful cover saves if they have any, and you may reroll the result for the Soul Blaze dice.
c. Fun Fluff Name #3 - The squad gains Preferred Enemy and Rending on their Range Weapons.

They're a flexible but fun squad now, and if you include the fixes I made to the other Cult Marines, they each have their own purpose in what they do.

Make them relentess with full BS on overwatch. Allow the aspiring sorcerer to pick his tzeentch power for 10 points instead of rolling, With 50/50 nature of getting off a psychic power in 7th it would be nice to have better than a 33% chance of having the one useful power or give them the power of 9. If you take at least 9 of them the sorcerer is a free upgrade. Or allow the sorcerer the tzeench primaris power and any primaris power of another school or the roll on he tzeench chart.

Change soul blaze to go off and then make the roll to see if it dies out. Make soulblaze like markerlights but on a per unit bais to add 1S to the shot. Or a unit under ssoulblaze suffer the affects of pinning with no pin test because he unit is distracted by the irritation of magical flames.

People are crying unbalanced, but let's use the Riptide example again
TS are only 30pts cheaper than a Riptide base. So don't give me all that Tyranid fodder about popping expenses units too easily.
Also, you have to think about what these MCs can do to you
Before TS are even in range, a Riptide does the following:
12 shots hitting on 4s with Rending. That's 6 hits, and at S6 that's 5 wounds with about 1 AP 2. So 2-3 dead TS already. (3+)
Then Riptide gets another 4 shots, so 2 hits, 2 wounds (S5) and 0-1 dead TS.
So before your TS are even in range, 2-4 of them are dead.
Yet you say it's unbalanced that they can kill that model, which is only 30pts more expensive. Hmm...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention firing the second one again on Ripple Fire...

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
People are crying unbalanced, but let's use the Riptide example again
TS are only 30pts cheaper than a Riptide base. So don't give me all that Tyranid fodder about popping expenses units too easily.
Also, you have to think about what these MCs can do to you
Before TS are even in range, a Riptide does the following:
12 shots hitting on 4s with Rending. That's 6 hits, and at S6 that's 5 wounds with about 1 AP 2. So 2-3 dead TS already. (3+)
Then Riptide gets another 4 shots, so 2 hits, 2 wounds (S5) and 0-1 dead TS.
So before your TS are even in range, 2-4 of them are dead.
Yet you say it's unbalanced that they can kill that model, which is only 30pts more expensive. Hmm...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention firing the second one again on Ripple Fire...

This is a flawed argument.
Why?

Because the same line of thinking (X should be equal to Y) can be applied to Grots and Land Raiders.
Unless you are hypothesising that equal amounts of Grots should be able to take on equal points of Land Raiders.

If you want to balance a unit, consider it's role on the battlefield, it's equivalents, and it's role.
Thousand Sons are probably best likened to Sternguard, and (IMHO) should have AP3 Fleshbane (4+) to represent their changing potential. No ML2 (because then a battlefield psyker is better than an HQ one) or Ignores Cover (because fire can have multiple effects - I personally see TS fire as too small to have IC)

Pointing at one of the more broken units in the game and saying that your rediculous thing is balanced because it's at the same level as the aforementioned rediculous thing is not conductive to good unit design.

Riptides, Wraithknight, Scatbikes, Warpspiders, Grav Devs etc are not the units you should be aiming to balance your hypothetical units against.

Instead, take a look at something like vanilla marines with a good but not broken chapter tactic (ultras or fists are both good examples) and go from there for units that are troops. For elites that can be troops, crisis suits would be an example of a rather strong, but not unfair unit. Somewhere between the 2 should be where your proposed unit falls. If it's worse than a tactical, then why bother, and if it's better than a crisis suit, you're probably undercosting it.

____________ WS___BS___S___T___W___I_____A____Ld___Sv
Aspiring Sorcerer_5____5___4____4___1___4____2____10____3+
Thousand Son___3____4___4____6___1___2____1____10____2+ 4++

Special rules: Relentless, Bulwark

Bulwark: The Sorcerers employ their Rubric brothers as a wall of sorcerously sealed ceramite between themselves and harm, allowing them to wield their magicks without interruption.
Rubric marines automatically pass 'look out sir' tests, there is no need to roll.

now, add any powers you want to that and cost it appropriately.

The basic Rubric Marine is 23pts, they're pretty much like a 22pt Sternguard, who also get AP3. It's the Aspiring Sorcerer who's really driving the price through the roof.

Do you guys think Aspiring Sorcerers should be mandatory? Or maybe each TS squad unlocks the option of buying an Aspiring Sorcerer as a non-FOC HQ?

At 115pt for 5x Rubric Marines, they'd come in somewhere between Beserkers and Plague Marines.

The reason I used a Riptide example is because people were complaining about them killing Riptides. I was simply proving that Riptides would kill them first.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
The reason I used a Riptide example is because people were complaining about them killing Riptides. I was simply proving that Riptides would kill them first.

Its a bad example cause you used the bad weapon , use the ion accelerator not the heavy burst cannon. Also its bs3 not 4 ( unless your going to start counting supporting units abilities ( marklerlights , so then you would need to buff the other unit with pysch abilities too)

I still say that these rules would be both sane, and allow for the unit to become decently competitive, fun, and still fulfill a unique niche role within the army which the codex currently lacks...
Most of this is based entirely on their old school 3.5ed rules, with the old Fantasy Lore of Tzeentch being adapted to 40k;

Rubric Marine: WS4/BS4/S4/T4/I2/W2/A1/Ld8
Acolyte Sorcerer: WS4/BS5/S4/T4/I4/W1/A2/Ld9
- Fearless
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Aura of Dark Glory
- Inferno Bolts
- The Sorcerer Commands
- Immortal Sentinels
- Veterans of the Long War

Mark of Tzeentch; Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have the Hatred: Mark/Daemon of Nurgle & Adamantium Will special rules, and may re-roll invulnerable saving throws of a 1. Psykers may also re-roll failed Perils of the Warp tests.

Inferno Bolts; S5/ap3, Gift of Mutation.
- any model which suffers an unsaved wound from an Inferno Bolt must immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, then the model immediately suffers an additional wound with no saves of any kind allowed. If a Character or Monstrous Creature loses its last wound because of this rule, roll a D6 - on a 2+ a Chaos Spawn is created and placed within 3" of the original model.
If the controlling player does not have a suitable Chaos Spawn model, or the newly created model can't be placed more than 1" from any other models, then no Chaos Spawn is created.

The Sorcerer Commands; While the unit's Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, he can re-roll failed 'Look Out Sir!' tests and the entire unit is Relentless, however it may not declare any charge moves during the Assault phase.
If there is no Acolyte Sorcerer controlling the unit, then the unit gains the Slow and Purposeful rule instead, and must pass a Ld test in order to preform any actions, though the unit will fight as normal if it is engaged in any assaults.

Immortal Sentinels; When making an Overwatch reaction, the unit counts as firing at BS2.


Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris - Flickering Fire of Tzeentch (as codex: Daemons)

1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1/Malediction - 24".
Until the start of the caster's next Psychic phase, the target unit must use the lowest Ld value (instead of the highest as would normally be the case) for any leadership based tests they make.


2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1/Witchfire - SD6+1/ap4, Template, Torrent


3. Bolt of Change (as codex: Daemons)

4. Glean Magic WC2/Witchfire - 18"/special
Can only be used to target a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. If successfully cast, both the caster & their target roll a D6 and add their Mastery Level to the roll. If the caster scores higher, the target suffers an automatic S3/ap2 Ignores Cover hit with the Warpflame rule, and immediately forgets one randomly chosen psychic power.
If the caster does not already know this spell, then he immediately gains it and cast it just like any of his other powers. Once the caster attempts to cast his stolen spell, it is destroyed and is immediately discarded.


5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2/Nova - 9"/SD3+2/ap4/Assault 2D6, Ignores Cover

6. Infernal Gateway WC2/Witchfire - 18"/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1, Blast, Ignores Cover
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining the power's strength, use the Large Blast marker instead.

*Note: All powers have the Warpflame special rule (as codex: Daemons)



Now Thousand Sons have a dedicated role to play within the army, being the ultimate anvil/objective securing unit AND having a niche of being the anti-multi wound unit.

W2/5++ re-rolling 1's vs. T5/FnP is different enough from Plaguemarines that they're not just carbon copies of each other. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons will lend themselves entirely to a supportive 'take and hold' style role, while Plaguemarines are much more tactically flexible in what they can do, but are still weaker vs. multi-wound targets.

Tzeentch magic is now blasty as hell, but random in just how devastating it will be. There's also a couple of very unique hexes in there, which while powerful, are not outright game-breaking on their own.

kambien wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
The reason I used a Riptide example is because people were complaining about them killing Riptides. I was simply proving that Riptides would kill them first.

Its a bad example cause you used the bad weapon , use the ion accelerator not the heavy burst cannon. Also its bs3 not 4 ( unless your going to start counting supporting units abilities ( marklerlights , so then you would need to buff the other unit with pysch abilities too)

I counted it as Bs3 hence I said hitting on 4s. I chose that weapon because for my comparison, I was using both units base. I chose that unit because of the context I have previously stated.

"Riptides, Wraithknight, Scatbikes, Warpspiders, Grav Devs etc are not the units you should be aiming to balance your hypothetical units against. "

They are if you want your units to be good, and not run over by those very units. It's an arms race.

Sorry 626, my fix is better

626's version is the best I've seen thus far.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Sorry 626, my fix is better

Your rules aren't even Tzeentchian my friend...

Seriously, you can't have proper Tzeentch rules unless they involve turning Girlyus Calgar into a mutant 6-eyed, beaver-squirrel that farts fire, which is then set loose into Farmer Nurgle's garden, where it proceeds to rip up all the plague pepper plants, just piss that cranky Grandfather off!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
626's version is the best I've seen thus far.

Thanks for the nod!

What wasn't Tzeentchian? They change abilities each turn, have Inferno Bolts, and contribute Warp Charges.

I'll have to agree with Smudge here. Experiment 626's version of the Thousand Sons is pretty dang good. My Muhreens would be very afraid of them.

I agree that they are pretty cool especially the powers. My only complaint is the inability to charge; while there are very few situations in which you want to charge, it feels like a very specific and unfun restriction that doesn't really help balance them. Maybe say that they always make disordered charges instead?

How about...

Thousand Sons - 105 pts

Rubric Marine
WS4
BS4
S4
T4
W1
I1
A1
Ld9
Slow and Purposeful, Fearless
Boltgun

Aspiring Sorcerer
WS4
BS4
S4
T4
W1
I1
A2
Ld10
Psyker (Mastery Level 1), Veterans of the Long War
Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Inferno Bolts (= S4 AP5 Force)

Additional Rubric Marines - 14 pts each
Up to 2 additional ML - 25 pts each

The Sorcerer Commands: Aspiring Sorcerer passes Look Out Sir! on a 2+.

The Enumerations: Aspiring Sorcerer can choose to discard any number of successfully harnessed Warp Charge dice. Discarded dice do not count for determining Perils of the Warp.

Tzeentch powers dumped. Sorcerer can roll on Change instead.

That's it. Rubrics are just slow marines with no sense of self-preservation. The squad is just a Sorcerer delivery system. The Sorcerer is not Fearless - with no Rubricae he's gonna run. Only the Sorcerer has VOTLW - Rubricae don't feel hate.

I liked the idea, but the execution isn't very interesting to me.