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Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics are absolutely terrible in combat. That's probably one of the dumbest things you've ever proclaimed.

Rubrics are. The sorcerer with the force weapon and boltpistol? Not so much.

It's a couple of force weapon attacks on a mediocre model. Big whoop. If anyone did that to me I'd thank them.

pm713 wrote:It's a couple of force weapon attacks on a mediocre model. Big whoop. If anyone did that to me I'd thank them.

I don't think that you guys are fully appreciating this. Thousand Sons are slow and purposeful; that means that they can rapid fire their bolters and charge in the same turn.

Do the math. That's 13 S4, AP 3 attacks and 8 S4, AP - attacks in a single turn for a 5 man squad.

Granted, Thousand Sons don't have grenades, but the sorcerer does.

This would average:

9/1 X 2/3 X 1/2 = 18/6 = 3/1

4/1 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 4/4 = 1/1

8/1 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 = 8/12 = 2/3

You could easily wipe a 5 man squad of MEQs between shooting and assault.

And in return, they'd only sustain, assuming no power weapons in the enemy squad:

5/1 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 = 5/12

Probably not even a single casuality.

If Thousand Sons had ignore cover, they'd be that much better.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:It's a couple of force weapon attacks on a mediocre model. Big whoop. If anyone did that to me I'd thank them.

I don't think that you guys are fully appreciating this. Thousand Sons are slow and purposeful; that means that they can rapid fire their bolters and charge in the same turn.

Do the math. That's 13 S4, AP 3 attacks and 8 S4, AP - attacks in a single turn for a 5 man squad.

Granted, Thousand Sons don't have grenades, but the sorcerer does.

This would average:

9/1 X 2/3 X 1/2 = 18/6 = 3/1

4/1 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 4/4 = 1/1

8/1 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 = 8/12 = 2/3

You could easily wipe a 5 man squad of MEQs between shooting and assault.

And in return, they'd only sustain, assuming no power weapons in the enemy squad:

5/1 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 = 5/12

Probably not even a single casuality.

If Thousand Sons had ignore cover, they'd be that much better.

I don't remember the last time I saw 5 MEQs that weren't in their free transport.

And how expensive is that? Congratulations you killed 70pts of the enemy in exchange for a lot more.

pm713 wrote:I don't remember the last time I saw 5 MEQs that weren't in their free transport.

And how expensive is that? Congratulations you killed 70pts of the enemy in exchange for a lot more.

1. Why on earth would you use a thousand sons squad to attack a 70 point tac squad?

That sternguard squad, on the other hand, or that devastator squad...

Or heck, even Thousand Sons vs. wraithguard, assuming the rhino has a dirge caster.

9/1 X 2/3 X 1/6 = 18/18 = 1/1
4/1 X 1/2 X 1/6 = 4/12 = 1/3
8/1 X 1/2 X 1/6 X 1/3 = 8/36 = 4/9

That's almost 2 dead wraithguard on the charge with no ability to overwatch.

2. I agree that 150 points for thousand sons is overcosted in general.

3. You're also not taking into account witch-fire attacks and warp charges.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:I don't remember the last time I saw 5 MEQs that weren't in their free transport.

And how expensive is that? Congratulations you killed 70pts of the enemy in exchange for a lot more.

1. Why on earth would you use a thousand sons squad to attack a 70 point tac squad?

That sternguard squad, on the other hand, or that devastator squad...

Or heck, even Thousand Sons vs. wraithguard, assuming the rhino has a dirge caster.

9/1 X 2/3 X 1/6 = 18/18 = 1/1
4/1 X 1/2 X 1/6 = 4/12 = 1/3
8/1 X 1/2 X 1/6 = 8/12 = 2/3

That's 2 dead wraithguard on the charge with no ability to overwatch.

2. I agree that 150 points for thousand sons is overcosted in general.

3. You're also not taking into account witch-fire attacks and warp charges.

You said 5 MEQ. That is 5 MEQ is it not? A Wraithguard is not a MEQ. It's way closer to TEQ.

Yeah with your amazing Tzeentch powers. That wouldn't be a waste of charge dice at all.

Yeah, a grand total of 3-4 attacks with just a force weapon (and only a Melta Bomb to supplement for your 1 wound model) is not gonna cut it. Seriously, don't pretend they're good.

Traditio wrote:
It occurs to me:

If units could assault from stationary vehicles again, thousand sons would be much more playable.

Move 18 inches in a rhino with dirge caster.

Disembark on the following turn. Cast force. Rapidfire AP 3 bolters. Charge with thousand sons squad with aspiring sorcerer with force weapon.

Firing a Rapid Fire weapon means the unit cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

 IllumiNini wrote:

Traditio wrote:
It occurs to me:

If units could assault from stationary vehicles again, thousand sons would be much more playable.

Move 18 inches in a rhino with dirge caster.

Disembark on the following turn. Cast force. Rapidfire AP 3 bolters. Charge with thousand sons squad with aspiring sorcerer with force weapon.

Firing a Rapid Fire weapon means the unit cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

Slow and Purposeful means they can.

I think that they would be better with that if they ended up being 150 for 3 Ignores Cover AP3 Boltgun Guys, 1 HB guy (still AP3na dIgnores Cover) and a Lvl 2 Sorcerer, possibly with the ability to take divination. Anyone wanna run the math on that one? Not sure how large the rerolls and the couple extra attacks would be, but it might be significant enough...

TS Sorcerors were good in combat for half of 3rd when they used the index astartes rules- they were WS5 because they used the regular codex entry.
By 3.5 they were sergeants, who quickly learned that their magic wasn't quite as good as carrying a powerfist and hiding behind their multiple wounded rubrics.

since the 4+ invuln came in they haven't had the option to take fists and so have relied on S4 ap2 force weapons, or more recently, S4 ap3/S5 ap 2-int1/S6 ap4 concussive force weapons.

Which is to say- they aren't great.
Especially now that force requires successfully harnessing warp charge rather than a LD10 test and since the FAQ seems to think these legionnaires and sons of magnus can do 1 spell a turn (force or dakka)

To those suggesting killing 5 devastators with 5 thousand sons is a good trade- its not. it will take about 3 turns to set up that charge if the devs don't kill the rhino and shoot the sons. Then you've got a 5 man squad somewhere in your opponents backfield where they'd prefer to be midfield.
They are a strange beast because they absolutely do not want to be in assault range of the opponent but that's where their magic bolters work best.

How about these bad boys?

Fixing Thousand Sons

Thousand Sons…150pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Aspiring Sorcerer 5 5 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+
Thousand Son 3 5 4 4 2 2 1 10 3+
Unit Composition: 1 Aspiring Sorcerer, 4 Thousand Sons
Unit Type: Infantry. Infantry (Character) (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Mark of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolts, Aura of Dark Glory (Thousand Sons Only), Sigel of Corruption (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Wards of Tzeentch.
Special Rules: Veterans of the Long War, Mindless Automatons (Thousand Sons Only), Sorcerous Commander (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Arcane Defences, Slow and Purposeful.
Options…May take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport…35pts
Per four Thousand Sons, may swap a single Boltgun for a Torch of Change…10pts
May add up to an additional 10 Thousand Sons…25pts/model
May take an Icon of Flame on one Thousand Son…15pts
The Aspiring Sorcerer may take melta bombs…5pts
Power Armour: This confers a 3+ Armour Save.
Boltgun: Range: 24”. S4. AP5. Rapid Fire.
Bolt Pistol: Range: 12”. S4. AP5. Pistol.
Force Sword: Range: -. SUser. AP3. Melee, Force.
Mark of Tzeentch: This is a Mark of Chaos. In addition, it grants +1 Invulnerable saves, Hatred: Mark of Nurgle and allows the model/unit to harness Warp Charge Points on a 3+.
Inferno Bolts: All Boltguns, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters carried by a model with Inferno Bolts count as AP3. In addition, these weapons also gain the Ignores Cover, Soul Blaze and Gets Hot special rules.
Aura of Dark Glory: A model with an Aura of Dark Glory has a 5++ Invulnerable save and causes Fear.
Sigel of Corruption: A model with a Sigel of Corruption has a 4++ Invulnerable save.
Wards of Tzeentch: A model with the Wards of Tzeentch may add or subtract 1 to all rolls on the Perils of the Warp table.
Veterans of the Long War: A model with this special rule has +1 Leadership and Hatred: Space Marines (see note).
Mindless Automatons: A model with this special rule is Fearless, fires Overwatch at full Ballistic Skill and has the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule.
Sorcerous Commander: If there is at least one model with this special rule in a unit, that unit counts the Slow and Purposeful special rule as the Relentless special rule whilst that model is alive. In addition, a unit that begins the game containing one model with this special rule is a Mastery Level 2 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, however when the model with this rule is removed as a casualty, the unit becomes a Mastery Level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, and randomly forget one power.
Arcane Defences: A model with this special rule has the Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior special rules. In addition, a model with this special rule reduces the Strength of all ranged weapons by 1.
Torch of Change: Range: Template. S7. AP2. Type: Assault, Torrent, Soul Blaze.
Icon of Flame: This counts as an Icon of Chaos. In addition, all models in a unit containing an Icon of Flame gain Soul Blaze on all of their weaponry. In addition, these models re-roll failed to Wound rolls with Template weapons, and Psychic Powers from the Pyromancy Discipline.

Thousand Sons generate powers from the Tzeentch and Pyromancy Disciplines. However, they are not required to generate any powers from the Tzeentch Discipline-their Sorcerers are not so meagre as to simply accept their master’s boons!

Tzeentch Discipline:
Primaris. Tzeentch’s Firestorm. Witchfire. Warp Charge 1.
Range: 24”. S6. AP4. Assault, Large Blast, Ignores Cover.
1) Endless Schemes. Blessing. Warp Charge 1.
Targets the Psyker and his unit. They are permitted to both Run and Fire their weapons in the next Shooting Phase, in either order.
2) Terrible Fate. Malediction. Warp Charge 2.
Targets a single enemy unit within 18”. That unit must re-roll all successful saving throws this game turn.
3) Terrible Gaze. Witchfire, Beam. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 12”. S9. AP2. Assault 2, Armourbane.
4) Blasting Torrents. Witchfire. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 24”. S3. AP6. Rapid Fire 12, Soul Blaze.
5) Unholy Chants. Conjuration. Warp Charge 1.
A single unit of 5 Pink Horrors Deep Strikes within 6” of the Psyker. They suffer -1 Strength and Toughness for the remainder of the game.
6) Doombolt. Witchfire. Warp Charge 3.
Range: 36”. S10. AP3. Large Blast, Barrage, Lance, Doom.
Doom: For every model removed as a casualty by this power, every other model in their unit must pass an Initiative test or suffer an additional hit from this power.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
How about these bad boys?

Fixing Thousand Sons

Thousand Sons…150pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Aspiring Sorcerer 5 5 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+
Thousand Son 3 5 4 4 2 2 1 10 3+
Unit Composition: 1 Aspiring Sorcerer, 4 Thousand Sons
Unit Type: Infantry. Infantry (Character) (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Mark of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolts, Aura of Dark Glory (Thousand Sons Only), Sigel of Corruption (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Wards of Tzeentch.
Special Rules: Veterans of the Long War, Mindless Automatons (Thousand Sons Only), Sorcerous Commander (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Arcane Defences, Slow and Purposeful.
Options…May take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport…35pts
Per four Thousand Sons, may swap a single Boltgun for a Torch of Change…10pts
May add up to an additional 10 Thousand Sons…25pts/model
May take an Icon of Flame on one Thousand Son…15pts
The Aspiring Sorcerer may take melta bombs…5pts
Power Armour: This confers a 3+ Armour Save.
Boltgun: Range: 24”. S4. AP5. Rapid Fire.
Bolt Pistol: Range: 12”. S4. AP5. Pistol.
Force Sword: Range: -. SUser. AP3. Melee, Force.
Mark of Tzeentch: This is a Mark of Chaos. In addition, it grants +1 Invulnerable saves, Hatred: Mark of Nurgle and allows the model/unit to harness Warp Charge Points on a 3+.
Inferno Bolts: All Boltguns, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters carried by a model with Inferno Bolts count as AP3. In addition, these weapons also gain the Ignores Cover, Soul Blaze and Gets Hot special rules.
Aura of Dark Glory: A model with an Aura of Dark Glory has a 5++ Invulnerable save and causes Fear.
Sigel of Corruption: A model with a Sigel of Corruption has a 4++ Invulnerable save.
Wards of Tzeentch: A model with the Wards of Tzeentch may add or subtract 1 to all rolls on the Perils of the Warp table.
Veterans of the Long War: A model with this special rule has +1 Leadership and Hatred: Space Marines (see note).
Mindless Automatons: A model with this special rule is Fearless, fires Overwatch at full Ballistic Skill and has the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule.
Sorcerous Commander: If there is at least one model with this special rule in a unit, that unit counts the Slow and Purposeful special rule as the Relentless special rule whilst that model is alive. In addition, a unit that begins the game containing one model with this special rule is a Mastery Level 2 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, however when the model with this rule is removed as a casualty, the unit becomes a Mastery Level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, and randomly forget one power.
Arcane Defences: A model with this special rule has the Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior special rules. In addition, a model with this special rule reduces the Strength of all ranged weapons by 1.
Torch of Change: Range: Template. S7. AP2. Type: Assault, Torrent, Soul Blaze.
Icon of Flame: This counts as an Icon of Chaos. In addition, all models in a unit containing an Icon of Flame gain Soul Blaze on all of their weaponry. In addition, these models re-roll failed to Wound rolls with Template weapons, and Psychic Powers from the Pyromancy Discipline.

Thousand Sons generate powers from the Tzeentch and Pyromancy Disciplines. However, they are not required to generate any powers from the Tzeentch Discipline-their Sorcerers are not so meagre as to simply accept their master’s boons!

Tzeentch Discipline:
Primaris. Tzeentch’s Firestorm. Witchfire. Warp Charge 1.
Range: 24”. S6. AP4. Assault, Large Blast, Ignores Cover.
1) Endless Schemes. Blessing. Warp Charge 1.
Targets the Psyker and his unit. They are permitted to both Run and Fire their weapons in the next Shooting Phase, in either order.
2) Terrible Fate. Malediction. Warp Charge 2.
Targets a single enemy unit within 18”. That unit must re-roll all successful saving throws this game turn.
3) Terrible Gaze. Witchfire, Beam. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 12”. S9. AP2. Assault 2, Armourbane.
4) Blasting Torrents. Witchfire. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 24”. S3. AP6. Rapid Fire 12, Soul Blaze.
5) Unholy Chants. Conjuration. Warp Charge 1.
A single unit of 5 Pink Horrors Deep Strikes within 6” of the Psyker. They suffer -1 Strength and Toughness for the remainder of the game.
6) Doombolt. Witchfire. Warp Charge 3.
Range: 36”. S10. AP3. Large Blast, Barrage, Lance, Doom.
Doom: For every model removed as a casualty by this power, every other model in their unit must pass an Initiative test or suffer an additional hit from this power.

Jebus! Obviously there's nothing that's completely bonkers in any way about BS5/ap3 Overwatch!



Really? These rules are worse than D-Scythes level of OP'ness, and that's truly saying something...

Also, why the hell is every Aspiring Sorcerer in existence suddenly limited to only Force Swords? Did every last axe fall apart & all the staves break or something?!

TS should remain a rare, elite unit with special abilities connecting them to Chaos/magic - and therefore remain expensive.

Firstly some synergy between Sorcerer and Rubics is needed. IG have Orders, Mechanicum have different protocols - give the Sorcerer a handful choices too buff his Rubics each turn. FnP, better ++ save, make the bolters A3, etc. Keep these buffs separate from the spells.

Secondly, lets add synergy between TS squads and other TS squads, anything with MoT and MoT Sorcerers. The Skitaari Onager have a 6++, that improves with 1 for each other Onager within 6 inches. Let two squads buff each other if in close contact (or maybe distant contact - its magic!) Or add some formations that gives TS bonuses.

Thirdly, increase damage output/cost. 1 bolter bullet, although AP3, sucks when NM can fire 2/3 cover ignoring rounds. Let's give TS a heavy bolter each, maybe with a secondary firing mode for Fleshbane or mutations as suggested but with firing mode of 1.

Fourth, Rubics are less "alive" than Necrons and should be very resistant to damage (but not with the Necrons self-repair or others regenation). Resolute all damage at S-2, and S-5 for Barrage? Or some big advantage against D weapons, making them true monster hunters,

Fifth, change the generic AS to three variants - one cheap with only basic bonuses ("orders" and AP3), one magic-oriented AS with better spells and one combat-oriented AS that mainly boosts the Rubics.

And both the magic system and big T should be changed to reflect that a CSM Sorcerer is far more powerful, ruthless and long lived (read: experiences and artefacts) than what the IoM can offer.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
How about these bad boys?

Fixing Thousand Sons

Thousand Sons…150pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Aspiring Sorcerer 5 5 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+
Thousand Son 3 5 4 4 2 2 1 10 3+
Unit Composition: 1 Aspiring Sorcerer, 4 Thousand Sons
Unit Type: Infantry. Infantry (Character) (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Mark of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolts, Aura of Dark Glory (Thousand Sons Only), Sigel of Corruption (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Wards of Tzeentch.
Special Rules: Veterans of the Long War, Mindless Automatons (Thousand Sons Only), Sorcerous Commander (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Arcane Defences, Slow and Purposeful.
Options…May take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport…35pts
Per four Thousand Sons, may swap a single Boltgun for a Torch of Change…10pts
May add up to an additional 10 Thousand Sons…25pts/model
May take an Icon of Flame on one Thousand Son…15pts
The Aspiring Sorcerer may take melta bombs…5pts
Power Armour: This confers a 3+ Armour Save.
Boltgun: Range: 24”. S4. AP5. Rapid Fire.
Bolt Pistol: Range: 12”. S4. AP5. Pistol.
Force Sword: Range: -. SUser. AP3. Melee, Force.
Mark of Tzeentch: This is a Mark of Chaos. In addition, it grants +1 Invulnerable saves, Hatred: Mark of Nurgle and allows the model/unit to harness Warp Charge Points on a 3+.
Inferno Bolts: All Boltguns, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters carried by a model with Inferno Bolts count as AP3. In addition, these weapons also gain the Ignores Cover, Soul Blaze and Gets Hot special rules.
Aura of Dark Glory: A model with an Aura of Dark Glory has a 5++ Invulnerable save and causes Fear.
Sigel of Corruption: A model with a Sigel of Corruption has a 4++ Invulnerable save.
Wards of Tzeentch: A model with the Wards of Tzeentch may add or subtract 1 to all rolls on the Perils of the Warp table.
Veterans of the Long War: A model with this special rule has +1 Leadership and Hatred: Space Marines (see note).
Mindless Automatons: A model with this special rule is Fearless, fires Overwatch at full Ballistic Skill and has the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule.
Sorcerous Commander: If there is at least one model with this special rule in a unit, that unit counts the Slow and Purposeful special rule as the Relentless special rule whilst that model is alive. In addition, a unit that begins the game containing one model with this special rule is a Mastery Level 2 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, however when the model with this rule is removed as a casualty, the unit becomes a Mastery Level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, and randomly forget one power.
Arcane Defences: A model with this special rule has the Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior special rules. In addition, a model with this special rule reduces the Strength of all ranged weapons by 1.
Torch of Change: Range: Template. S7. AP2. Type: Assault, Torrent, Soul Blaze.
Icon of Flame: This counts as an Icon of Chaos. In addition, all models in a unit containing an Icon of Flame gain Soul Blaze on all of their weaponry. In addition, these models re-roll failed to Wound rolls with Template weapons, and Psychic Powers from the Pyromancy Discipline.

Thousand Sons generate powers from the Tzeentch and Pyromancy Disciplines. However, they are not required to generate any powers from the Tzeentch Discipline-their Sorcerers are not so meagre as to simply accept their master’s boons!

Tzeentch Discipline:
Primaris. Tzeentch’s Firestorm. Witchfire. Warp Charge 1.
Range: 24”. S6. AP4. Assault, Large Blast, Ignores Cover.
1) Endless Schemes. Blessing. Warp Charge 1.
Targets the Psyker and his unit. They are permitted to both Run and Fire their weapons in the next Shooting Phase, in either order.
2) Terrible Fate. Malediction. Warp Charge 2.
Targets a single enemy unit within 18”. That unit must re-roll all successful saving throws this game turn.
3) Terrible Gaze. Witchfire, Beam. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 12”. S9. AP2. Assault 2, Armourbane.
4) Blasting Torrents. Witchfire. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 24”. S3. AP6. Rapid Fire 12, Soul Blaze.
5) Unholy Chants. Conjuration. Warp Charge 1.
A single unit of 5 Pink Horrors Deep Strikes within 6” of the Psyker. They suffer -1 Strength and Toughness for the remainder of the game.
6) Doombolt. Witchfire. Warp Charge 3.
Range: 36”. S10. AP3. Large Blast, Barrage, Lance, Doom.
Doom: For every model removed as a casualty by this power, every other model in their unit must pass an Initiative test or suffer an additional hit from this power.

Jebus! Obviously there's nothing that's completely bonkers in any way about BS5/ap3 Overwatch!



Really? These rules are worse than D-Scythes level of OP'ness, and that's truly saying something...

Also, why the hell is every Aspiring Sorcerer in existence suddenly limited to only Force Swords? Did every last axe fall apart & all the staves break or something?!

Sorry, for some reason I posted the unedited version. It should read 220points and 37pts/extra model. Basically ranged Terminators in cost. Also, you're right, change Force Sword to read Force Weapon. Now what do you think?

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Spoiler:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
How about these bad boys?

Fixing Thousand Sons

Thousand Sons…150pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
Aspiring Sorcerer 5 5 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+
Thousand Son 3 5 4 4 2 2 1 10 3+
Unit Composition: 1 Aspiring Sorcerer, 4 Thousand Sons
Unit Type: Infantry. Infantry (Character) (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Force Sword (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Mark of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolts, Aura of Dark Glory (Thousand Sons Only), Sigel of Corruption (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Wards of Tzeentch.
Special Rules: Veterans of the Long War, Mindless Automatons (Thousand Sons Only), Sorcerous Commander (Aspiring Sorcerer Only), Arcane Defences, Slow and Purposeful.
Options…May take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport…35pts
Per four Thousand Sons, may swap a single Boltgun for a Torch of Change…10pts
May add up to an additional 10 Thousand Sons…25pts/model
May take an Icon of Flame on one Thousand Son…15pts
The Aspiring Sorcerer may take melta bombs…5pts
Power Armour: This confers a 3+ Armour Save.
Boltgun: Range: 24”. S4. AP5. Rapid Fire.
Bolt Pistol: Range: 12”. S4. AP5. Pistol.
Force Sword: Range: -. SUser. AP3. Melee, Force.
Mark of Tzeentch: This is a Mark of Chaos. In addition, it grants +1 Invulnerable saves, Hatred: Mark of Nurgle and allows the model/unit to harness Warp Charge Points on a 3+.
Inferno Bolts: All Boltguns, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters carried by a model with Inferno Bolts count as AP3. In addition, these weapons also gain the Ignores Cover, Soul Blaze and Gets Hot special rules.
Aura of Dark Glory: A model with an Aura of Dark Glory has a 5++ Invulnerable save and causes Fear.
Sigel of Corruption: A model with a Sigel of Corruption has a 4++ Invulnerable save.
Wards of Tzeentch: A model with the Wards of Tzeentch may add or subtract 1 to all rolls on the Perils of the Warp table.
Veterans of the Long War: A model with this special rule has +1 Leadership and Hatred: Space Marines (see note).
Mindless Automatons: A model with this special rule is Fearless, fires Overwatch at full Ballistic Skill and has the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule.
Sorcerous Commander: If there is at least one model with this special rule in a unit, that unit counts the Slow and Purposeful special rule as the Relentless special rule whilst that model is alive. In addition, a unit that begins the game containing one model with this special rule is a Mastery Level 2 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, however when the model with this rule is removed as a casualty, the unit becomes a Mastery Level 1 Brotherhood of Psykers unit, and randomly forget one power.
Arcane Defences: A model with this special rule has the Adamantium Will and Eternal Warrior special rules. In addition, a model with this special rule reduces the Strength of all ranged weapons by 1.
Torch of Change: Range: Template. S7. AP2. Type: Assault, Torrent, Soul Blaze.
Icon of Flame: This counts as an Icon of Chaos. In addition, all models in a unit containing an Icon of Flame gain Soul Blaze on all of their weaponry. In addition, these models re-roll failed to Wound rolls with Template weapons, and Psychic Powers from the Pyromancy Discipline.

Thousand Sons generate powers from the Tzeentch and Pyromancy Disciplines. However, they are not required to generate any powers from the Tzeentch Discipline-their Sorcerers are not so meagre as to simply accept their master’s boons!

Tzeentch Discipline:
Primaris. Tzeentch’s Firestorm. Witchfire. Warp Charge 1.
Range: 24”. S6. AP4. Assault, Large Blast, Ignores Cover.
1) Endless Schemes. Blessing. Warp Charge 1.
Targets the Psyker and his unit. They are permitted to both Run and Fire their weapons in the next Shooting Phase, in either order.
2) Terrible Fate. Malediction. Warp Charge 2.
Targets a single enemy unit within 18”. That unit must re-roll all successful saving throws this game turn.
3) Terrible Gaze. Witchfire, Beam. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 12”. S9. AP2. Assault 2, Armourbane.
4) Blasting Torrents. Witchfire. Warp Charge 2.
Range: 24”. S3. AP6. Rapid Fire 12, Soul Blaze.
5) Unholy Chants. Conjuration. Warp Charge 1.
A single unit of 5 Pink Horrors Deep Strikes within 6” of the Psyker. They suffer -1 Strength and Toughness for the remainder of the game.
6) Doombolt. Witchfire. Warp Charge 3.
Range: 36”. S10. AP3. Large Blast, Barrage, Lance, Doom.
Doom: For every model removed as a casualty by this power, every other model in their unit must pass an Initiative test or suffer an additional hit from this power.

Sorry, for some reason I posted the unedited version. It should read 220points and 37pts/extra model. Basically ranged Terminators in cost. Also, you're right, change Force Sword to read Force Weapon. Now what do you think?

*sigh*
It doesn't matter how expensive you make these guys, they're still easily Wraithknight levels of OP'ness...

The statline is fine - Thousand Sons damn well should be 2 wound infantry, as they are a disembodied spirit "living" inside of a power armoured shell.
HOWEVER!
Under your verison, they're pretty much impossible to kill outside of plentiful Str.D attacks... 3+ save, 4++ invuln AND a 6+++ FnP? Oh, and just for gaks and giggles, obviously throw Eternal Warrior and -1S vs. all shooting attacks into the mix!?
The only way to viably remove such a model is going to be through Str.D at this point... The majority of attacks will only wound on 3's at best (and you need S6 to do that!), and they'll still have to get through either a 3+/6+++, or else a 4++/6+++, and outside of an ability that allows for multiple wounds, you can't remove whole models because we're back to 5th ed Daemons of multi-wounds + Eternal Warrior troops.

These guys are out-Necroning the poor Necrons!
Yes Rubrics are resilient things, but they're not Necron levels of resilient, and they should be a similar yet different type of resilient as compared to Plaguemarines. (hence why W2/4++ & weaker assault capability vs. T5/FnP & decent assault capability)


Under your versions, their shooting is beyond gross...
Ap3 Bolters are awful and fulfill no role within the army as a whole. Hence why the other suggestions of boosting the Inferno Bolt to S5/ap4, or going for a modified Fleshbane 4+ w/ap3. Now the unit is a dedicated Monster-hunter, something that the current codex is hugely lacking in outside of Plasma/Autocannon spam.

Those Template weapons? Beyond busted my friend... They're only better Baleflamers, and those are still complained about! Now we're giving a Rhino-mounted unit what is basically a pair of Baleflamers with +1S/ap?! AND because... "reasons", let's also throw in an Icon that gives re-rolls to wound with these ungodly weapons, because they're not quite auto-win enough as it is!?
And finally, just to make sure that our super unit is nearly invincible to assaults - the one phase that 1kSons are meant to be abysmal at, let's give them BS5 Overwatch... on ap3 weapons, with some ap2 Wall of Death thrown in there just to make sure nothing can ever make it into contact alive. (well, unless you're an actual freaking Titan or GMC!)

This alone should have been massive warning bells that this unit idea is only 9 levels of Op'ness from hell.
Renegades & Heretics - which are considered highly competitive, only give Tzeentch BS2 overwatch. With potential squad-wide ap3 weapons, that's more than enough for Thousand Sons to have a unique gimmick that makes them stand out from the other Cults.


The Psychic Powers are all over the place, and have entirely thrown away what's been the defining feature of Tzeentch magic for nearly a decade now - random strength.

Tzeentch magic is meant to be potentially the most outright devastating in the game. The trade-off is that it's random, hence why we get most everything that's D6 strength/D6+1/D6+4, etc...
Instead, you've simply gone for the "must be super-amazing 'cause Tzeentch is best!"
The Blessing power may as well just read, "make 1kSons Eldar +1", while the Malediction should simple be retitled "if successful, just remove your unit". (seriously, Misfortune was the same damn thing in 6th, and it was busted as hell - cast it successfully, and a couple templates could reliably all but wipe out a 10 man Tactical squad)
'Terrible Gaze' should simply be "if successful, just remove any vehicles under the Beam's path".
'Doombolt' is pretty much a giant feth-you to Necrons & Orks especially... (because those guys totally need yet another kick to the groin!)
And 'Unholy Chants' is entirely a 'why bother' power... What's the need for making a tiny unit of already easily killed models S/T2?! It's a pointless nerf, and worse, you're now effectively telling anyone who wants to use Thousand Sons, that they also need the Daemon codex to boot, just in case they land this one (useless) spell.


Sorry to be so harsh, but these rules are awful... Absolutely Thousand Sons are in desperate need of a serious overhaul, but turning around and making them into Wraithknight levels of OP is definitely not the way to go!
Even if these guys were to cost 60pts each, they'd be worth it, and taken in droves, since the unit can easily deal with almost any threat they'll come across. (pretty much only vehicles, SHV's/GMC's will scare them.)


This is something more sane, and that harkens back to their 3.5ed days of being the true 'anvil' of the CSM army, but with added anti-MC/multi-wound capabilities added in in order to finally give 1kSons a defining role within the codex.

If everything is a WK, then nothing is.

Seems like making everything stronger rather than nerfing a few things is a waste of time.

The TSons need to be t5 and w2 and their bolters should lose ap 3 and get soulblaze as well as fleshbane. The sorcerer could take powers from any discipline and should be ML 2.

They pay a huge price tag for ap 3 which is arguably useless if you're not fighting marines, the soul blaze and fleshbane would make it far more effective vs not marines. The extra toughness and wounds represent the TSons lack of flesh and thus lack of being wounded and taken out of the fight. The sorcerer buff is supposed to represent the TSons psychic might. Maybe keep ap 3 but up the points?

Inferno Bolts = S4 AP5 Fleshbane, Force

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Inferno Bolts = S4 AP5 Fleshbane, Force

Like the idea of Force. It also fits in with what everyone appears to be saying about killing (F)MCs and (F)GCs

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Inferno Bolts = S4 AP5 Fleshbane, Force

Then GK players can get all up in arms over us "stealing" what was obviously "their thing".

But honestly, Force + Fleshbane is hugely game-breaking... Wounding on 2's with Instant Death attacks is too good. You may as well just FAQ every non-GMC multi-wound unit out of the game at that point.
Sure Ridtides may survive a couple squads, but think about, say Codex: Daemons, in which half or more of the entire codex are fairly pricey multi-wound models that only sport 5++ saves...
Or else, one unlucky save roll, and "poof", 300+ pts MC goes splat, which would be common for the likes of Tyranids & Daemons.

This proves most of the forum has the same concept of balance as GW.
I'd like to think I'm better than that.

Personally, i've always felt the Tzeentch powers should have 1 or 2 "anti-magic" powers. Old school null-zone, or a dispell that cancels all blessings on the target unit. The sheer utility of dispel powers would mean you would see them in competitive builds because of the ability to stop Invisibility and other psychic powers.

I'm less interested in the table for now, as I would want to focus on making the unit function without powers first.

Experiment wrote:But honestly, Force + Fleshbane is hugely game-breaking... Wounding on 2's with Instant Death attacks is too good. You may as well just FAQ every non-GMC multi-wound unit out of the game at that point.

Devil's advocate:

It's at 24 inch range.

Are you really afraid of fleshbane, instant death bolters at 24 inch range?

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Inferno Bolts = S4 AP5 Fleshbane, Force

Then GK players can get all up in arms over us "stealing" what was obviously "their thing".

But honestly, Force + Fleshbane is hugely game-breaking... Wounding on 2's with Instant Death attacks is too good. You may as well just FAQ every non-GMC multi-wound unit out of the game at that point.
Sure Ridtides may survive a couple squads, but think about, say Codex: Daemons, in which half or more of the entire codex are fairly pricey multi-wound models that only sport 5++ saves...
Or else, one unlucky save roll, and "poof", 300+ pts MC goes splat, which would be common for the likes of Tyranids & Daemons.

But the sound of splatting MCs is so sweet. Maybe the Tau will have to pay attention for once.

 Traditio wrote:

Experiment wrote:But honestly, Force + Fleshbane is hugely game-breaking... Wounding on 2's with Instant Death attacks is too good. You may as well just FAQ every non-GMC multi-wound unit out of the game at that point.

Devil's advocate:

It's at 24 inch range.

Are you really afraid of fleshbane, instant death bolters at 24 inch range?

30 inch threat zone.

And yes, I would be.

 Traditio wrote:

Experiment wrote:But honestly, Force + Fleshbane is hugely game-breaking... Wounding on 2's with Instant Death attacks is too good. You may as well just FAQ every non-GMC multi-wound unit out of the game at that point.

Devil's advocate:

It's at 24 inch range.

Are you really afraid of fleshbane, instant death bolters at 24 inch range?

What if we had it as the 4+ fleshbane discussed earlier?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about we change Inferno Bolts to read the following:
The weapons of the Thousand Sons are imbued with sorcerous flames that melt through flesh, armour and soul in an instant, and, when enhanced by the powers of a Psyker, they can fell any foe.

A model with Inferno Bolts counts all Boltguns, Bolt Pistols and Heavy Bolters as AP3, and these weapons always wound on a 4+. In addition, these weapons gain the Soul Blaze and Force special rules. Finally, a model firing Inferno Bolts reduces the Invulnerable save of its target by 1.

I like AP3 Force because it makes the Sorceror relevant

 rollawaythestone wrote:
I like AP3 Force because it makes the Sorceror relevant

Agreed. What did you think of my overall suggestion?