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Martel732 wrote:

This is 40K; you're a beggar, not a chooser. The undisputed masters of the sky, the BA,

That's not how you abbreviate Doom Eagles.

The issue with 1ksons is that they are no longer marines at all. They are animated suits and therefore their strength and toughness are completely arbitrary.
This additional durability has been represented with

3rd: All is dust- only S5+ shooting attacks can damage them. CC attacks damage normally.
3.5: +1 wound
4/5th- 4+invuln.

I'm a firm believer in simplicity- stop chucking USR's at units. If they are tougher, harder to kill, add toughness- or wounds if you want them to stick around.
If you must add USR's, FNP is an awful example- it requires more dice to resolve.

 =Angel= wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

This is 40K; you're a beggar, not a chooser. The undisputed masters of the sky, the BA,

That's not how you abbreviate Doom Eagles.

The issue with 1ksons is that they are no longer marines at all. They are animated suits and therefore their strength and toughness are completely arbitrary.
This additional durability has been represented with

3rd: All is dust- only S5+ shooting attacks can damage them. CC attacks damage normally.
3.5: +1 wound
4/5th- 4+invuln.

I'm a firm believer in simplicity- stop chucking USR's at units. If they are tougher, harder to kill, add toughness- or wounds if you want them to stick around.
If you must add USR's, FNP is an awful example- it requires more dice to resolve.

The game needs more granularity, not less, though. Simplicity is what makes Imperial heavy weapons garbage in 7th ed.

It isn't like rolling dice is THAT hard, but within their already simplistic nature they have no use. We can chuck another wound on them, but that honestly does nothing. That's why I'm against it.

They might be worth their current point cost if you give them 2 wounds and FNP. Also, the Tzeentch CSM lore needs to get fixed as it is quite literally the worst Psyker discipline in the game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What does the new Daemon Tzeentch table look like? If we just applied that table to roll on instead, would that also help the Sorcerer from feeling like a tax?

Here you go:

Primaris - Flickering Fire of Tzeentch: choose 1-3 WC, get 2D6/3D6/4D6 Heavy Bolter shots, 24" with Soul Blaze and Warpflame
1 - Tzeentch's Firestorm: WC1 3" Blast, 24" SD6+1, AP-, Warpflame
2 - Bolt of Change: WC1 Beam, 24" SD6+4, AP 2, Assault 1, Warpflame
3 - Tzeentch's Warpflame: WC1 Nova, Range 9", SD6, AP4, Assault 2D6, Ignores Cover, Warpflame
4 - Boon of Flame: choose 2-3 WC, Conjuration with range of 12". If used at WC2, conjure 1 Exalted Flamer. If used at WC3 conjure either a unit of 3 Flamers or 1 Burning Chariot.
5 - Infernal Gateway: WC2 3" Blast, 18", SD6+4, AP 1, Assault 1, Warpflame
6 - Prismatic Gaze: WC3. Witchfire, Range 18", Strength D, AP1, Assault 1

It's kind of hard to judge, since you can have anything from an AP- small blast to Strength D. The only thing that's guaranteed is a Heavy Bolter.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
They might be worth their current point cost if you give them 2 wounds and FNP.

Point-for-Point, they'd be tougher against Bolters than Meganobz. And would be about 5x tougher against Plasma where both their Invul and FNP come into effect. Considering Rubrics are roughly the same price as Sternguard, Plague Marines, and Legion of the Damned, it's a little hard to justify.

Since they don't have bodies, maybe they can be AV10 Walkers!

I deleted the part about the durability of Rubric Marines as I didn't read page 4 of this thread until just now. When reading about what needs to kill them, it doesn't seem like the Power Armour makes any difference - yes, it has been sealed shut, but what actually sustain them are the energies of Tzeentch which surround them, so should the Power Armour make any difference?

_________
Imagine some kind of Tzeentch themed army; wouldn't it make more sense that the bulk of the army consisted of either Cults of minions devoted to the Tzeentch along with summoned Daemons of Tzeentch and where Rubric Marines didn't perform like tactical units but more as personal guards of Sorcerers?

Chaospling wrote:
Imagine some kind of Tzeentch themed army; wouldn't it make more sense that the bulk of the army consisted of either Cults of minions devoted to the Tzeentch along with summoned Daemons of Tzeentch and where Rubric Marines didn't perform like tactical units but more as personal guards of Sorcerers?

Rubrics are supposed to be pretty rare compared to, say, Berzerkers or Plague Marines. It would make sense to move them to HQ as bodyguards for the Sorcerer. Then add a Brotherhood of Psykers unit to the Elite slot to act as the Tzeentch cult marines. Both would be fluffy in a Thousand Sons army.

I'm just interested in making them more interesting offensively.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Rubrics are supposed to be pretty rare compared to, say, Berzerkers or Plague Marines.

Apparently there's only something like 600 left in the entire 40k universe. It's one of those situations where epic fluff doesn't translate very well to how the unit is positioned in the game (potentially as an Obsec troops choice).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm just interested in making them more interesting offensively.

You can get a ML3 Sorcerer, with a bike and spell familiar, for 145pts. Trying to get 3WC from Aspiring Sorcerers would cost you 174pts.

At 1W and 1ML, unless they get some kind of massive buff through special rules they are always going to be risky and mediocre as offensive casters.

Keep in mind that now, they're also competing against Formations like the Cyclopia Cabal.

Can we all agree that Thousand Sons should be able to take 1 heavy bolter per 5 man squad?

Why would you want to?

Martel732 wrote:
Why would you want to?

S5 Inferno bolts at 36 inch range.

Still crap because it's heavy and only S5.

Martel732 wrote:
Still crap because it's heavy and only S5.

Don't TS ignore the restriction on moving and firing heavy weapons due to slow and purposeful? Or am I having a brainfart and thinking of something else?

 War Kitten wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still crap because it's heavy and only S5.

Don't TS ignore the restriction on moving and firing heavy weapons due to slow and purposeful? Or am I having a brainfart and thinking of something else?

Yes they do. In a rhino, no less.

Right, slow and purposeful. Sure, give them a heavy bolters and watch as the Wolfstar runs them over anyway. AP 3 is old tech, and no good lists really care about AP 3 boltguns anymore.

You could even give them back immunity so less than S5 and I'm not sure how much that would help honestly. It would make them immune to grav, though.

 Traditio wrote:
Can we all agree that Thousand Sons should be able to take 1 heavy bolter per 5 man squad?

Sort of? It's their Psyker who should be upping the squad's firepower. Theoretically you could have everything from Heavy Bolters (Flickering Fire) to antitank (Bolt of Change) to anti-LOW (Prismatic Gaze).

Alternatively, why not think about buffing/debuffing. Perfect Timing? Ignores Cover AP3. Prescience? Better damage output. Enfeeble? Effectively S5. Endurance? Suddenly they're more survivable than Decurion. Warp Speed/Iron Arm/Precognition? CC advantage. You get the idea.

But right now, that ~60pts is better invested in an Undivided Sorc who can generate a wider range of powers, reroll failed psychic dice, and who won't die to a single unlucky perils.

IMO the best way to improve them would be to give their bolts fleshbane and armorbane XD oh and something we do in my LGS "Chaos link" basically the sorcerers with marks get to roll a power on their god table and the regular ones per each ML they have.

 Traditio wrote:
Can we all agree that Thousand Sons should be able to take 1 heavy bolter per 5 man squad?

No.

 Traditio wrote:
Can we all agree that Thousand Sons should be able to take 1 heavy bolter per 5 man squad?

A Heavy bolter, or even better yet, a sorcerous Kai gun may very fit into the imagery of the methodically advancing 'ghosts in armour' that Thousand Sons evoke, but let's be real here, the new plastic kit that heavily rumored to be coming out later this year, will have exactly 0 upgrades.

Why? Because GW won't want to invalidate/radically change up their current codex entry.

Hence why I didn't go for any heavy/special weapon options in my proposed rules for them... There's maybe at best a .009% chance we actually get something new, so why bother setting yourself up for major disappointment?
Better to think about simply making the 1kSons bolters (or rather their Inferno Bolts) deadlier, hence why I suggested S5/ap3 and the ability to potentially cause multiple wounds.

That's really the 'best case scenario' we could ever expect from GW, since they're so content to keep Chaos Marines as 'Codex: Loyalist Punching Bag', while ignoring the second oldest model line in the entire game!

 Valkyrie wrote:

Traditio wrote:
By 40k standards, thus far, my idea must be a good one. Almost half of the poll respondents actually liked the ideas.

Remember how that last poll turned out, the one that got locked? Yeah, mindlessly going by these numbers doesn't make your idea a good one.

That was unwarranted. I believe the topic was fixing Thousand Sons, not pulling up crap from the past. Back on topic, please.

Sorry give them two wounds with a heavy bolter and they still suck. I can still charge them with 10+ guants.cultists.guardsmen and your nigh unto 300 point unit will be tarpitted for at least one turn by my <100 point unit. Why S&P makes the HB viable but it also prohibits overwatch.

I don't care if your make them 2+/2++ armor with 2 w and arm them all with heavy bolters... they suck/

Even a berzerker has more of a threat level andcapability to respond to multiple threats and they are in no way equvaent to plague or noise marines,

Pre6th The aspiring sorcerer had a doombolt that went off automatically. This worked in fulfilling the AT response of the unit. Restore that to 7th edition and you now have a 50/50 chance of success and still have to hit meaning a wonderful 33% chance of successfully hitting the target. The bonus is with the psychic phase you can run your sorcerer (scrath that you are stuck with a bunch of mindless S&P suits)
4++ saves mean you can potentially bathe in demolisher templates but a guardsmen with a flashlight will kill you on average 1 out of 18 shots. Worse you tale on a squad of guardsmen and potentialy you will be tarpitted by them and you cost almost 6 times the cost.

1000 Sons are the shooty equivalent of possessed and we all field hords of them don;t we.

For the same cost, make them relentless instead of S&P. Allow them to overwatch at BS 2 and make them have rending. in shooting and HTH. That gives them some semblance of antitank and puts a little fear into engaging them, Add anything else you want but then don;t cry when they cost like an obliterator.

Why should they have rending though?

pm713 wrote:
Why should they have rending though?

I second this. Ignores Cover. Soul Blaze. Fleshbane. Even bloody Warpflame! All of these make some form of sense. But why Rending? Especially if you don't want to invalidate Slaanesh.

 Traditio wrote:
Can we all agree that Thousand Sons should be able to take 1 heavy bolter per 5 man squad?

From a sculptimg standpoint, no, there isn't anything aesthetically appealing about a model like that compared to bolter ones.

From a hobby perspective, no, I don't see spending time to put that upgrade into preexisting squads.

When it comes to game play, no, obviously that does nothing.

In background, also no, because every member of squad with a heavy weapon is a mechanism for delivering the heavy weapon. The leader of the squad is there pretty exclusively to select targets to hit with the heavy weapon, and maneuver the squad into a good position to use the heavy weapon, and protect the operator of the weapon by deploying the other guys, and the leader of a rubric squad is not that. He is a straight up evil mastermind who is enacting a strand of some crazy daffy duck scheme.

No I don't agree.

I think the power of small arms generally has to come up, and that it isn't entirely necessary that rubrics have special shooting at all, but that it isn't wrong either.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Can we all agree that Thousand Sons should be able to take 1 heavy bolter per 5 man squad?

A Heavy bolter, or even better yet, a sorcerous Kai gun may very fit into the imagery of the methodically advancing 'ghosts in armour' that Thousand Sons evoke, but let's be real here, the new plastic kit that heavily rumored to be coming out later this year, will have exactly 0 upgrades.

Why? Because GW won't want to invalidate/radically change up their current codex entry.

Hence why I didn't go for any heavy/special weapon options in my proposed rules for them... There's maybe at best a .009% chance we actually get something new, so why bother setting yourself up for major disappointment?
Better to think about simply making the 1kSons bolters (or rather their Inferno Bolts) deadlier, hence why I suggested S5/ap3 and the ability to potentially cause multiple wounds.

That's really the 'best case scenario' we could ever expect from GW, since they're so content to keep Chaos Marines as 'Codex: Loyalist Punching Bag', while ignoring the second oldest model line in the entire game!

Come again? They literally split up the blood thirster in three different entries when the model came out.

The Bloodthirster is a giant centerpiece model, and also a Daemon. Plus, it's a Khornate model, and when it comes to Chaos, Khorne always gets the lion's share of the attention...

Besides, a Bloodthirster is not a CSM model.
GW actually gave a damn about Daemons when we got our 6th ed codex, which in all honesty, we damn well deserved considering how the amazingly OP Durp Knights codex pretty much shelved our entire codex for about 2 years.

pm713 wrote:
Why should they have rending though?

Rending is to give them viability. They are still only bolter armed suits but now say you have the perfect number if 8 + sorcerer/// 10 hit at S4 AP3 but oon average almost 2 will be AP2 no need for heavy bolters. This also gives them pseudo anti tank with 10+d3 AP you have restored the doom bolt. In CC you give them rending because they don;t have krak grenades. Only 1 A per model so not that effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why should they have rending though?

I second this. Ignores Cover. Soul Blaze. Fleshbane. Even bloody Warpflame! All of these make some form of sense. But why Rending? Especially if you don't want to invalidate Slaanesh.

Sorry ignores cover invalidates Noise Marines more, Fleshbane makes them riptide/wraithknight killers. Rending steps on the toes of daemonettes but we are talking 1 A per model not 2 or 3 and not at I5 or better. i dare you to make a CC themed 1000 sons list with your rending 1.

How about adding a "Thousand Sons" discipline for CSM, uniquely designed to improve how Rubrics play on the board?

Primaris - Inferno Bolts are +1 Strength and receive Soul Blaze.
1: Nova witchfire. Enemy units hit by the Nova, may not take saving throws against wounds suffered while resolving Soul Blaze.
2: Rubric Marines may fire Overwatch, overwatch resolved at BS2.
3: Rubric Marines and Sorcerer may reroll all failed armour saves.
4: Rubric Marines gain +1S, +1T, Smash.
5: Malediction. Applies Soul Blaze to unit. If the unit is already suffering from Soul Blaze, remove 1T and reduce the unit's Armor save and Invulnerable save by 1. This is a permanent effect which stacks, but may only be applied once per player turn.
6: Sorcerer tests LD, if successful = activates Force and powers up as per "Warp Surge" on the Perils table (3++, Armorbane, Fleshbane, Smash). If unsuccessful, suffers an unsaveable wound.

Icon of Flame: Select a sorcerer (either an HQ or as an upgrade to the squad). For every ML, you may roll once on "Thousand Sons", once on "Change" discipline, and receive psychic focus for both. The Sorcerer receives Inferno Bolts as Wargear.

In terms of differentiation from the other Cult marines, I like the idea of the unit deriving most of its offense and staying power from the Sorcerers, and relying on tricked-out Inferno Bolts rather than special weapons. Seems fluffy right?