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If you think about the different cult marines, the actual Rubricae aren't really that far off.

Beserkers (19ppm) - BP/CCW, Rage/Counterattack/FC
Noise Marines (17ppm) - Init 5
Plague Marines (24ppm) - Feel no Pain, T5, Defensive Grenades, 4+ poison, Init 3
Rubricae (23ppm) - Slow and Purposeful, 4++, AP3 Bolters, VotLW

VotLW is driving their price up unnecessarily (by a whopping 1ppm). No real meaningful synergy, so perhaps say if you have a Tzeentch Sorcerer present in your army, it negates SNP. Meanwhile small arms is still an survivability issue. Reworking Aura of Dark Glory to include a 5++ and reroll failed saves of 1 would help. Finally, since they can't take special weapons, they need a way to affect AV or they will end up suffering from Warp Talon syndrome.

5x Rubric Marines (110pts) - 4++, AP3 Bolters, reroll failed saves of 1
Icon of flame (20pts) - confers Armorbane on bolt weapons (stolen from the LotD codex)

That doesn't strike me as a bad infantry unit. There's just some issues dealing with 2+ saves and hordes, and that's where the Tzeentch psychic powers are useful. But I think a lot of their issues stem from having a mandatory 60pt sorcerer in every squad, especially when those could otherwise be taken in formations with commensurate bonuses.

I still think the Sorcerer at least needs 2 wounds, if not the whole squad.

What if they were just an add-on to the HQ Sorcerer? Like Servitors for the Techmarine? Then if you want a Thousand Sons army just field a Cyclopia Cabal.

Come up with new cult marines for the Elite slot. Like some kind of Brotherhood of Sorcerers unit. I smell a dual kit!

 Swampmist wrote:
I agree that they are pretty cool especially the powers. My only complaint is the inability to charge; while there are very few situations in which you want to charge, it feels like a very specific and unfun restriction that doesn't really help balance them. Maybe say that they always make disordered charges instead?

I simply ended up 'modernising' for the most part their old 3.5ed rules, as imho, those have been both the single best game rules & the most fluffy versions of 1kSons GW have produced from 3rd edition to present...

Always count as making a Disordered Charge would be okay - the main idea I was wanting to keep to is that Thousand Sons are meant to be a highly specialised ranged threat, who's leadership tends to actively avoid combat at all costs.
There's nothing I hate more as a long time Tzeentch fan than seeing how 1kSons have literally devolved into nothing more than a min/maxed delivery system for Force Axe totting Sergeants to play MC/IC assassin.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you think about the different cult marines, the actual Rubricae aren't really that far off.

Beserkers (19ppm) - BP/CCW, Rage/Counterattack/FC
Noise Marines (17ppm) - Init 5
Plague Marines (24ppm) - Feel no Pain, T5, Defensive Grenades, 4+ poison, Init 3
Rubricae (23ppm) - Slow and Purposeful, 4++, AP3 Bolters, VotLW

VotLW is driving their price up unnecessarily (by a whopping 1ppm). No real meaningful synergy, so perhaps say if you have a Tzeentch Sorcerer present in your army, it negates SNP. Meanwhile small arms is still an survivability issue. Reworking Aura of Dark Glory to include a 5++ and reroll failed saves of 1 would help. Finally, since they can't take special weapons, they need a way to affect AV or they will end up suffering from Warp Talon syndrome.

5x Rubric Marines (110pts) - 4++, AP3 Bolters, reroll failed saves of 1
Icon of flame (20pts) - confers Armorbane on bolt weapons (stolen from the LotD codex)

That doesn't strike me as a bad infantry unit. There's just some issues dealing with 2+ saves and hordes, and that's where the Tzeentch psychic powers are useful. But I think a lot of their issues stem from having a mandatory 60pt sorcerer in every squad, especially when those could otherwise be taken in formations with commensurate bonuses.

The Rubricae are far too vulnerable to small arms at the moment, hence the need to give them back their W2 profile...
Just blasting a hole through their armour where their hearts would be isn't going to "kill" a freaking disembodied spirit! You need to physically destroy the majority of the suit itself so that there's no longer anything (magical or physical) to contain the spirit.

Simply going T5 or even T6 and/or adding an additional FnP save is outright stepping on Nurgle's toes...
Hence, the multiple wound infantry + invuln saves being ideal, both from a background point of view, and a rules mechanic point of view as well.

And no, Thousand Sons don't need to be capable of taking on vehicles to be good and/or killing hordes. CSM's don't actively need a lot of additional help anyways in killing vehicles or hordes especially, so why give 1kSons such a needless redundancy?
What CSM's do in fact need, are more options for dealing with multi-wound units & MC's! (right now, Plasma spam is pretty much all we have)
Hence, Inferno Bolts getting +1S and the ability to inflict multiple wounds, with an added little bonus of potentially turning an IC/MC into a Spawn. Now 1kSons fulfill a unique role within the army.

Giving them Force based shooting though is dangerous... While GK's have it, the ability is kept in check because the weapon itself is limited & costly, while the platforms they can take it on are hugely expensive for the Relentless versions, AND, it's only ever S4 shots, with no ap value.
Honestly ranged Force in general is a bad idea, as it can easily become quite broken very quickly. Most MC's and multi-wound units are not problematic, and it would be far better & infinitely easier to simply address the (at most) half dozen or so problem MC's/multi-wound units, rather than add-in a mechanic that would effectively render every single MC & multi-wound unit completely pointless.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
I still think the Sorcerer at least needs 2 wounds, if not the whole squad.

The Sorcerer no - he's still;
1. a regular old, mortal Space Marine
2. he's supposed to be on a lesser level compared to the HQ Sorcerer options

Keeping the Aspiring/Acolyte Sorcerers 1 wound models is an important distinction. Otherwise, if they gain +1W, then every single Aspiring Champion in the CSM codex should become a W2 model.
(actually, I'd honestly be quite for this, as it would offer a huge distinction between Loyalist vs. Chaos Marines... Loyalists would be about the 'whole', with every single Marine being valued, while Chaos would become entirely focused on the characters themselves, with the faceless masses being entirely expendable!)

The Rubricae though? Absolutely they need their W2 profile back!

I don't know 626. Look at the math.

10x Bolter shots: Lose 16pts of Rubricae, 12pts of Plague Marines, 19pts of Noise Marines, 21pts of Beserkers.
10x Autocannon shots: Lose 27pts of Rubricae, 30pts of Plague Marines, 31pts of Noise Marines, 35pts of Berserkers.
5x Plasma Shots: Lose 25pts of Rubricae, 44pts of Plague Marines, 47pts of Noise Marines, 53pts of Berserkers.

They're pretty survivable with a reroll on 1's, only Plague Marines hold up better to Bolter Fire. Keep in mind Rubricae don't necessarily need upgrades either. I know you're appealing to the fluff and 3.5, but I don't really see the need for 2W given the numbers above. It's still a MEQ unit.

I also don't see them as being tough enough for two wounds. Being tough is a Plague Marine job.

But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

1K sons should certainly have FNP.

There should be an expensive sergeant upgrade that gives them access to force bolter shots as well. It makes sense for what they are. MC users would just have to be wary, as they force everyone else to be wary of them. Hard counters are a thing in this game.

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Even so, FNP is just justified.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Even so, FNP is just justified.

FNP I'm fine with. 2W seems a bit much for something that dies from a big hole in their armour.

Nah, they aren't massive enough to warrant 2W. Give them FNP and options to make them much killier, especially vs MCs via force ammo. That's a good niche in 7th.

While we are at it, make berserkers competitive with Wulfen. Because Khorne.

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

Hence FNP. That's the exact definition of FNP.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

I said a big enough breach. Chainsword = minor breach so you're fine. Plasma gun = large breach so you're gone.

It will still suck for 1K sons that wound spam is their achilles heel, but welcome to 7th ed. They are kinda resilient against Ion accelerators at least. Fire warriors and HYMP own their faces, though.

"...a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them..."

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
"...a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them..."

Presumably that's the invuln save.

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
"...a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them..."

Seconding Martel. Following that to the letter is just going to end in "1k Sons don't die unless it's Instant Death" or something.

Martel732 wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
"...a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them..."

Presumably that's the invuln save.

Exactly.

Martel732 wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

Hence FNP. That's the exact definition of FNP.

No, the definition of FNP is that the unit is grievously wounded, but ignores the wound due to mental or physical strength. Extra wounds, on the other hand, represents that a model does not suffer damage to the extent of other models, and thus takes more damage to kill. How the rules are executed is, of course, almost the exact opposite. But fluff wise, this is the difference.

I think they are fine but fluff wise and points cost wise they are a fail-

Look at the 4 choices:

Berzerkers are CC specialist but really need +1 A to be able to compete with CSM with MoK. I would also like Rend to be added to the chainaxe to allow it to be worthwhile.

Noise Marines a good choice jack of all trades with I5 and CCW and a Doom siren good CC unit or with their guitars a good shooty army.

Plague Marines good survival and good option with special weapons.

So that leaves the 1000 sons with their anti-MEC rounds.
I like the 3.5 codex but +1 wound is over the top. I like the 4+++ and the idea of FNP to provide them a pseudo second wound. My biggest problem is they suck at CC so even a guard squad can tarpit them with impunity. So what I would propose is to change from Slow and Purposeful to Relentless so they can overwatch with their bolters also I would give them at least BS 2 if not full BS so the remain sucky if you get them in CC but you have to thiink about do you want to be overwatched by a hail of AP3 shots. A;lso to bring them a little fear in CC make their 1 attack rending so that it provides another factor why you just don;t want to get them in HTH it would also give them pseudo crack grenades with S4 +6 +d3 on armor.

The core problem is the aspring sorcerer tax so I would propose a couple of changes.

1, 1000k will stand immobile and only engage the closest enemy target if they have no sorcerer in their unit or within 12" . (This would allow you to get them as a body guard for your sorcerer lord without needing the aspiring sorcerer.)

2. Go to the fluff and make the aspiring sorcerer free if you purchase a 9th 1000 son who immeditately becomes a sorcerer.

3. Make the sorcerer immediately getting the Primaris of Tzeentch for being indedicated to tending for a bunch of rubrics and then able to take his choice from any legal school for a chaos sorcerer.

4. For a points cost say 15 points to get the choice of any one Tzeench power you want.

I would also propose a change to soul blaze so that you put a marker for each unit that hits a unit with soul blaze.
For each marker they get +1 S and/or +1 to the D3 for every one that persists. Also every unit under soulblaze can only snap fire.
So 2 1000k and their rhinos with gargoyles fire on a unit providing 4 soulbblaze markers and the aspiring sorcerers hit with two soulblaze inducing spells providing 6 soulbblaze markers on the target,
So if all of them persist they are going to take D3+5 S 8 hits and be snap firing an could even take out a dreadnought or even a landraider on a good day. On average 3 persist so D3 +2 S5 hits and be snap firing.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

Hence FNP. That's the exact definition of FNP.

No, the definition of FNP is that the unit is grievously wounded, but ignores the wound due to mental or physical strength. Extra wounds, on the other hand, represents that a model does not suffer damage to the extent of other models, and thus takes more damage to kill. How the rules are executed is, of course, almost the exact opposite. But fluff wise, this is the difference.

+1
FnP is the most imperfect rule to represent what Thousand Sons are, besides the fact that both Plaguemarines AND MoS Marines already have FnP as a rule anyways... If you really want to go play 'Codex: Feel No Pain', then please, go play Necrons or Dark Eldar - but it's definitely NOT! a defining feature for CSM's!

While it seems like a few people really have their panties all in a twist over the idea of returning the Sons to their W2 profile, it's also the single most iconic & reasonable way to represent their long-established background;

"Chaos Space Marines of the Thousand Sons Legion were forever damned when the Rubric of Ahriman was unleashed upon them. This immensely powerful spell sealed their armour shut and reduced their physical bodies to a handful of dust, trapping their spirits inside their armour for all eternity. Their soulless bodies are almost impossible to destroy and only the total destruction of their power armour tomb is enough to release the spirit trapped inside."
- codex chaos space marines 3rd edition, pg.12

"...On the other hand, their battle brethren whose psychic powers had been slight or non-existent were permanently changed. the armour of the normal battle brothers was sealed shut, as if every clasp and joint had been welded tight. Inside the heavy shell of ceramite and adamantium the bodies of the Chaos Space Marines had been reduced to a handful of dry dust. Truly mutation would plague them no more, but their spirits lived on inside their battle armour for all eternity."
- codex chaos space marines 4th edition, pg.37

"...Although these living suits still move and function, and can respond to orders just like a sentient man, they are little more than automatons. They quickly fall into inactivity unless a Sorcerer is nearby to direct them, although in the fires of battle, something of their former battle-hunger returns and they move with greater clarity of purpose.
Conversely, they are far more durable than the Chaos Space Marines of their brother Legions - a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them better than any physical armour ever could."
- codex chaos space marines 6th edition, pg.45


Higher toughness and/or FnP doesn't fit the background of the Rubricae as they have no vital feelies anymore, as well as already being the defining traits of other units such as Plaguemarines & Slaanesh units in general.
All their background however clearly emphasises that only the utter destruction of their physical form can kill a Thousand Son marine - hence, why they should regain their W2 profile back...
Small arms are next to worthless against what is basically a walking, magically animated power armoured coffin. A krak rocket or brightlance to the face however would obliterate a Rubric Marine, and is best represented by the Instant Death mechanic becoming their hard-counter.

Besides, we're only proposing T4/W2 with a minor invuln save... it's not like we're suddenly suggesting we go back to their original 3rd edition incarnation of being outright immune to anything to that's not at least S5.

If T4/W2 Space Marines seem like they're really that overpowered, then drop their invuln down to a 6++/re-roll 1's.

But seriously, T5/6 and/or FnP is hilariously bad at representing the background of the Rubricae Marines.

You can make 22ppm Rubricae tougher against wound spam by letting them reroll their 3+ armor save only. The 4++ Invulnerable would stand.

Against 10x Bolters: 8pts lost (versus 12pts for Plague Marines)
Against 10x Autocannons: 14pts lost (versus 30pts for Plague Marines)
Against 5x Plasma: 31pts lost (versus 44 points for Plague Marines)

In retrospect, mathematically that's the most effective solution to discourage small arms wound spam. By comparison, if Rubricae have 2W about 12pts will be removed. With FNP, about 16pts is removed. They don't really need any help against Plasma/Melta/Krak Missiles, a 4++ is already much better than their peers. Though honestly, making them tougher than Terminators might be a little aggravating. TS aren't the only unit that suffers from wound spam.

Their survivability goes down when you stick on the 60pt Sorc tax. 5x Plague Marines with 2x Plasmas will absorb about 100x Bolter Shots. 4x Rubrics will absorb 110x Bolter Shots, the Sorc about 9x. So honestly that seems about right, provided the Sorc is a mandatory tax.

There is still the question of if the Sorc and 4x AP3 Bolters are worth 2x special weapons.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

Hence FNP. That's the exact definition of FNP.

No, the definition of FNP is that the unit is grievously wounded, but ignores the wound due to mental or physical strength. Extra wounds, on the other hand, represents that a model does not suffer damage to the extent of other models, and thus takes more damage to kill. How the rules are executed is, of course, almost the exact opposite. But fluff wise, this is the difference.

Whatever. These should not be multi-wound models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"- but it's definitely NOT! a defining feature for CSM's"

It could be. Why not?

"But seriously, T5/6 and/or FnP is hilariously bad at representing the background of the Rubricae Marines."

I don't really care about the background. Crunchwise, FNP is about right.

Yoyoyo wrote:
You can make 22ppm Rubricae tougher against wound spam by letting them reroll their 3+ armor save only. The 4++ Invulnerable would stand.

Against 10x Bolters: 8pts lost (versus 12pts for Plague Marines)
Against 10x Autocannons: 14pts lost (versus 30pts for Plague Marines)
Against 5x Plasma: 31pts lost (versus 44 points for Plague Marines)

In retrospect, mathematically that's the most effective solution to discourage small arms wound spam. By comparison, if Rubricae have 2W about 12pts will be removed. With FNP, about 16pts is removed. They don't really need any help against Plasma/Melta/Krak Missiles, a 4++ is already much better than their peers. Though honestly, making them tougher than Terminators might be a little aggravating. TS aren't the only unit that suffers from wound spam.

Their survivability goes down when you stick on the 60pt Sorc tax. 5x Plague Marines with 2x Plasmas will absorb about 100x Bolter Shots. 4x Rubrics will absorb 110x Bolter Shots, the Sorc about 9x. So honestly that seems about right, provided the Sorc is a mandatory tax.

There is still the question of if the Sorc and 4x AP3 Bolters are worth 2x special weapons.

My proposed new version of Rubrics removed the 4++ entirely, instead trading it out for W2 + 5++/re-roll 1's. And if people are really uptight about CSM's suddenly getting a decent unit, then drop the invuln down to 6++/re-roll 1's.

Inferno Bolts I suggest changing to S5/ap3, (since there's actually a better chance of the Maple Loafs winning the Cup next year than GW putting upgrades like heavy bolters or a kai gun into the new plastic kit), with the added perk of potentially causing additional wounds on failed toughness tests...
...and spawn making potential, because Tzeentch without turning people into spawn is like Nurgle cleaning out his boils and spraying air freshener after he farts.

And really, is it truly that awful if there's suddenly a pts-heavy MEq unit that isn't ridiculously vulnerable to small arms wound spam?

Or maybe we'll just go back to only S5+ can actually hurt a Thousand Sons model, because that will be super popular!

Martel732 wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
But they're literal living suits of armor. They are certainly tough, simply because they need to be literally dismantled to be defeated. Maybe give them a negative to their profile for losing the champ, rather than having to roll to do stuff? Although. I think giving all CSM characters +1 wound would be pretty cool, they are the champions after-all.

I thought they died from a big enough breach in the armour.

Read their page in CSM again. It says something like:
Even if a bolter or chainsword sanders their armour, it may not be enough to kill them.

Hence FNP. That's the exact definition of FNP.

No, the definition of FNP is that the unit is grievously wounded, but ignores the wound due to mental or physical strength. Extra wounds, on the other hand, represents that a model does not suffer damage to the extent of other models, and thus takes more damage to kill. How the rules are executed is, of course, almost the exact opposite. But fluff wise, this is the difference.

Whatever. These should not be multi-wound models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"- but it's definitely NOT! a defining feature for CSM's"

It could be. Why not?

"But seriously, T5/6 and/or FnP is hilariously bad at representing the background of the Rubricae Marines."

I don't really care about the background. Crunchwise, FNP is about right.

Background is the only thing that 40k really has going for it... Personally, I don't really care about people who only want flavourless rules that are designed purely to make their toys win as effortlessly as possible.

If 100% fairness is what you're after, I hear chess is mostly balanced, never has to deal with continuous army creep, and way cheaper to boot.

Experiment 626 wrote:
And really, is it truly that awful if there's suddenly a pts-heavy MEq unit that isn't ridiculously vulnerable to small arms wound spam?

Model-wise, Rubricae aren't actually points-heavy. Without VotLW they'd be 22pts, which is pretty much the same as most elite MEQ choices.

It's entirely the Aspiring Sorc driving the cost up.

Martel732 wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
"...a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them..."

Presumably that's the invuln save.

Which is a really gakky way of going about things. Say my 1K son takes a wound from a bolter. He takes his armour save, he fails it so the bolt pierces the armour. However, it doesn't matter because, you know, ripped armour is nothing to a rubric marine, it literally says so!

OH WAIT NO, A SINGLE HOLE A FEW CM IN DIAMETER IN MY RUBRIC MARINE KILLS HIM ENTIRELY AND THEY'RE NO MORE RESISTANT TO LASGUN FIRE THAN ANY OTHER PA MARINE.

FNP makes much more sense. Armour save --> Oops it pierced it, but is it enough to stop the rubric, let's find out! --> FNP

Yoyoyo wrote:
You can make 22ppm Rubricae tougher against wound spam by letting them reroll their 3+ armor save only. The 4++ Invulnerable would stand.

Against 10x Bolters: 8pts lost (versus 12pts for Plague Marines)
Against 10x Autocannons: 14pts lost (versus 30pts for Plague Marines)
Against 5x Plasma: 31pts lost (versus 44 points for Plague Marines)

In retrospect, mathematically that's the most effective solution to discourage small arms wound spam. By comparison, if Rubricae have 2W about 12pts will be removed. With FNP, about 16pts is removed. They don't really need any help against Plasma/Melta/Krak Missiles, a 4++ is already much better than their peers. Though honestly, making them tougher than Terminators might be a little aggravating. TS aren't the only unit that suffers from wound spam.

Their survivability goes down when you stick on the 60pt Sorc tax. 5x Plague Marines with 2x Plasmas will absorb about 100x Bolter Shots. 4x Rubrics will absorb 110x Bolter Shots, the Sorc about 9x. So honestly that seems about right, provided the Sorc is a mandatory tax.

There is still the question of if the Sorc and 4x AP3 Bolters are worth 2x special weapons.

Maybe we could keep the rubrics as they are, but as long as the sorcerer is alive, the rubrics get to re-roll their armour saves.

It would make for a really fluffy unit: The sorceror is able to knit back together the armour with his sorcerous powers. Obviously plasma weaponry will cause a lot more damage which the sorcerer can't repair on the fly but it won't necessarily take out a rubric at once. That's where the 4+ invul comes in. Thousand sons would become more resistant too small arms fire while the sorcerer tax actually becomes worth something.
It would make for a very tactical unit to use and to deal with.

DaPino wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
"...a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeentch surrounds and sustains them..."

Presumably that's the invuln save.

Which is a really gakky way of going about things. Say my 1K son takes a wound from a bolter. He takes his armour save, he fails it so the bolt pierces the armour. However, it doesn't matter because, you know, ripped armour is nothing to a rubric marine, it literally says so!

OH WAIT NO, A SINGLE HOLE A FEW CM IN DIAMETER IN MY RUBRIC MARINE KILLS HIM ENTIRELY AND THEY'RE NO MORE RESISTANT TO LASGUN FIRE THAN ANY OTHER PA MARINE.

FNP makes much more sense. Armour save --> Oops it pierced it, but is it enough to stop the rubric, let's find out! --> FNP

Yoyoyo wrote:
You can make 22ppm Rubricae tougher against wound spam by letting them reroll their 3+ armor save only. The 4++ Invulnerable would stand.

Against 10x Bolters: 8pts lost (versus 12pts for Plague Marines)
Against 10x Autocannons: 14pts lost (versus 30pts for Plague Marines)
Against 5x Plasma: 31pts lost (versus 44 points for Plague Marines)

In retrospect, mathematically that's the most effective solution to discourage small arms wound spam. By comparison, if Rubricae have 2W about 12pts will be removed. With FNP, about 16pts is removed. They don't really need any help against Plasma/Melta/Krak Missiles, a 4++ is already much better than their peers. Though honestly, making them tougher than Terminators might be a little aggravating. TS aren't the only unit that suffers from wound spam.

Their survivability goes down when you stick on the 60pt Sorc tax. 5x Plague Marines with 2x Plasmas will absorb about 100x Bolter Shots. 4x Rubrics will absorb 110x Bolter Shots, the Sorc about 9x. So honestly that seems about right, provided the Sorc is a mandatory tax.

There is still the question of if the Sorc and 4x AP3 Bolters are worth 2x special weapons.

Maybe we could keep the rubrics as they are, but as long as the sorcerer is alive, the rubrics get to re-roll their armour saves.

It would make for a really fluffy unit: The sorceror is able to knit back together the armour with his sorcerous powers. Obviously plasma weaponry will cause a lot more damage which the sorcerer can't repair on the fly but it won't necessarily take out a rubric at once. That's where the 4+ invul comes in. Thousand sons would become more resistant too small arms fire while the sorcerer tax actually becomes worth something.
It would make for a very tactical unit to use and to deal with.

This is 40K; you're a beggar, not a chooser. The undisputed masters of the sky, the BA, don't have the skyhammer formation. The details of exactly how 1K sons take damage is just that; a detail. What matters in the end is how it crunches.

What does the new Daemon Tzeentch table look like? If we just applied that table to roll on instead, would that also help the Sorcerer from feeling like a tax?