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I've been thinking about Thousand Sons lately. Very cool models. Great fluff. Generally bad rules.

It occurs to me that they are easily fixable:

1. Reduce Thousand Sons to 22 ppm (as sternguard).

2. Add the "ignore cover" special rule to inferno bolts.

3. Reduce the cost of the aspiring sorcerer to 40 ppm.

4. The aspiring sorcerer can roll either from the Tzeentch psychic table or the Pyromancy psychic table.

They still probably shouldn't get grenades.

While points are a huge issue to them (possibly the main one) they still have no real use.

Granted, they are great marine killers, but most other 3+ units tend to be T6+, so wounding them is a huge issue.

Also, ignores cover on them is a bit over the top I think.
It's quite a heavy rule to throw on cheap(er) troops.



I think the main issue is the chaos book as a whole.
Even if you buffed 1k sons, they need support and synergy from other units.
Currently the chaos book has as much synergy as a chocolate tea pot, and is about as useful too.

Thousand Sons aren't at all equal to Sternguard, and the Sorcerer is dead weight as long as the Tzeentch discipline is as bad as it is.

Unfortunately, Thousand Sons need a lot more attention than a few tweaks in order to function. The Sorcerer's powers having some synergy with the unit is a good start.

EDIT: Ignores Cover on AP3 bolters isn't all that powerful for their cost. They'd still not be a good unit.

 Jackal wrote:
While points are a huge issue to them (possibly the main one) they still have no real use.

Granted, they are great marine killers, but most other 3+ units tend to be T6+, so wounding them is a huge issue.

It would make them good against bikes.

Also, ignores cover on them is a bit over the top I think.

Sternguard get it, and there's nothing particularly imbalanced about them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Thousand Sons aren't at all equal to Sternguard, and the Sorcerer is dead weight as long as the Tzeentch discipline is as bad as it is.

Unfortunately, Thousand Sons need a lot more attention than a few tweaks in order to function. The Sorcerer's powers having some synergy with the unit is a good start.

What if the sorcerer could roll on the pyromancy table?

True, sternguard do have it, but making 1k sons a mirror image is not the way to go. (otherwise you have yet another marine army)

Maybe reducing cover due to flaming bolts etc?



They would be good against bikes, but how does a slow and purposeful unit with bolters get close enough to make use of it?
The bike wont target them and would avoid them altogether.

Or in the case of Ork bikes, they would just assault them and kill them off.


Bikes are usually a melta/grav delivery system, so they will be after armour instead.
If they did decide to go for the 1ksons, they would tear through them just as easy.








Edit: the changing of powers would help alot.
As stated, the sorcerer is dead weight, so some synergy from him would help.
Even if it's from guide/doom type spells.

 Jackal wrote:
True, sternguard do have it, but making 1k sons a mirror image is not the way to go. (otherwise you have yet another marine army)

They would still be very different units. With sternguard, you'd have units that can pick and choose what ammo to use based on the situation. Think Judge Dredd.

With Thousand Sons, you'd have a squad of power armored automata just spewing fire balls at people.

They would be good against bikes, but how does a slow and purposeful unit with bolters get close enough to make use of it?

Rhinos.

Edit: the changing of powers would help alot.
As stated, the sorcerer is dead weight, so some synergy from him would help.
Even if it's from guide/doom type spells.

I think allowing pyromancy would be a big buff and in line with the whole idea of "Elites that shoot fire balls at people" theme. No?

Pyro would be well suited.


All I was thinking (very roughly) was:



Primaris: unit re-rolls failed hits.
1: unit re-rolls failed wounds.
2: unit gains +2 strength to bolters.
3: unit may fire their bolters as if they were assault 3.
4: flame template, S3 AP3


That's as far as the thoughts went.
Just a rough idea to try and boost them and help fill other rolls too.

Love 1k sons but they have suffered badly for years now, which is a shame as the models are ace.

I think these are some good suggestions.

I'm going to steal them and credit them to you.

Frozen Ocean wrote:EDIT: Ignores Cover on AP3 bolters isn't all that powerful for their cost. They'd still not be a good unit.

You have to admit, though:

It would troll ravenwing, white scars and dark eldar players.

Do DE really need to be kicked while already down though?

A Tzeentch daemonkin book would be interesting though, could essentially bring them back into use.

Because Dark Eldar need to get worse. It's not really that great against bikes anyway.

Why the lack of grenades?

I thought about them some weeks ago as well. I could see the sorcerer as an overall buffing unit and would give him the following rule:
Instead of generating psychic powers normally the sorcerer uses his will to activate the rubric marines. Every round you may decide to give his unit the following bonus:
- +1 to invulnerable save
- relentless instead of slow and purposeful
- unit may fire its bolters twice, but can't charge afterwards
The round you use this ability, your sorcerer doesn't generate a warp charge.
Additionally one could think about letting the unit as a whole generate a warp charge die. But that might be reserved for word bearer legion tactics .

Once we get a new pack of them I hope they'll get some heavy weapons as well. Hellfire-heavy bolters would be nice, or heavy torrent flamers with soul blaze... you know, stuff that would make tzeentch happy.

i'd leave ignores cover for the noise marines, btw.

Sgt. Cortez:

It makes perfect sense for inferno bolts to ignore cover.

1. Dragonfire ammunition for sternguard ignores cover.
2. Flamer templates ignore cover.
3. At least 2 of the pyromancy witchfires ignore cover.

Is there a substantive difference between dragonfire ammunition and inferno bolts other than the whole "magic" bit? Inferno bolts are a fire-based ammunition (albeit magical). Ergo, ignores cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Why the lack of grenades?

They already don't have grenades. Only the sorcerer does.

I suspect it's because of the whole "automata" bit. It's easy to conceive of automata being able to fire boltguns at the commandof the sorcerer. It's more difficult to imagine them throwing grenades.

I think it's a start. Thousand Sons would need more than these changes to make them a "good" choice. But it's certainly a start I feel. Hats off to you Traditio, it's a start.

By 40k standards, thus far, my idea must be a good one. Almost half of the poll respondents actually liked the ideas.

Traditio wrote:
By 40k standards, thus far, my idea must be a good one. Almost half of the poll respondents actually liked the ideas.

Remember how that last poll turned out, the one that got locked? Yeah, mindlessly going by these numbers doesn't make your idea a good one.

Ignores Cover is a start but the other ideas fall flat. Even if the Sorceror's 40points now there's still no reason to take him due to the awful disciplines he has.

From this and your recent Grav post, you don't seem like you're trying to fix it, you're just saying the first thing that comes into your head.

Traditio wrote:
By 40k standards, thus far, my idea must be a good one. Almost half of the poll respondents actually liked the ideas.

The only remotely "good" suggestion was to reduce their insanely over the top pts cost...

What Thousand Sons need is;
1. A reason to even exist.
- a slow as mud infantry unit that's geared specifically towards killing MEQ infantry is pretty much the very last thing Chaos Marines need. Give them an actual niche to fill within the army

2. Unit synergies.
- the entire Lore of Tzeentch needs to be re-tooled as it currently is the game's single worst psychic lore. The Sorcerer should offer some actual benefits to his squad beyond an ap2 pointy death stick. Taking the unit should not actively make your army even worse than it currently is!


For the first, they need to fill a role that the entire rest of the codex can't already do better, and far cheaper than 1kSons... If we look back at their previous incarnations, Thousand Sons were the basically the ultimate anvil unit available to Chaos armies.
In 3rd edition, they could not be wounded by any attacks with a S4 or less. In 3.5ed, they became base W2 Infantry.

For the latter, looking back to previous rules and/or looking over at how Fantasy dealt with Tzeentchian magic;
- the unit moved & acted pretty much like a regular Relentless infantry unit that simply could not make a charge move while the Sorcerer was alive. Once he died, only then did the unit itself become the slowest thing in the game.
- the Lore of Tzeentch is all about being blasty as hell, but random in it's overall strength, while also having a small number of hexes that can screw with opposing units. (typically by making enemy leadership & characters worse)

Hence, if we really want to make Thousand Sons into a viable unit that's worth their current cost, then why not something along the lines of;
Rubric Marine: WS4/BS4/S4/T4/I2/W2/A1/Ld8
Acolyte Sorcerer: WS4/BS5/S4/T4/I4/W1/A2/Ld9
- Fearless
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Aura of Dark Glory
- Inferno Bolts
- The Sorcerer Commands
- Immortal Sentinels

Mark of Tzeentch; Models with the Mark of Tzeentch may re-roll invulnerable saving throws of a 1. Psykers may also re-roll failed Perils of the Warp tests.

Inferno Bolts; S5/ap4, Ignores Cover, Gift of Mutation.
- any model which suffers an unsaved wound from an Inferno Bolt must immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, then the model immediately suffers an additional wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If a Character or Monstrous Creature loses its last wound because of this rule, roll a D6 - on a 2+ a Chaos Spawn is created and placed within 3" of the original model.
If the controlling player does not have a suitable Chaos Spawn model, or the newly created model can't be placed more than 1" from any other models, then no Chaos Spawn is created.

The Sorcerer Commands; While the unit's Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, the entire unit is Relentless, however it may not declare any charge moves during the Assault phase. If there is no Acolyte Sorcerer controlling the unit, then the unit gains the Slow and Purposeful rule instead, and must pass a Ld test in order to preform any actions, though the unit will fight as normal if it is engaged in any assaults.

Immortal Sentinels; When making an Overwatch reaction, the unit counts as firing at BS2.


Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris - Flickering Fire of Tzeentch (as codex: Daemons)

1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1/Malediction - 24".
Until the start of the caster's next Psychic phase, the target unit must use the lowest Ld value (instead of the highest as would normally be the case) for any leadership based tests they make.

2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1/Witchfire - SD6+1/ap4, Template, Torrent

3. Bolt of Change (as codex: Daemons)

4. Glean Magic WC2/Witchfire - 18"/special
Can only be used to target a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. If successfully cast, both the caster & their target roll a D6 and add their Mastery Level to the roll. If the caster scores higher, the target suffers an automatic S3/ap2 hit with the Warpflame rule, and immediately forgets one randomly chosen psychic power.
If the caster does not already know this spell, then he immediately gains it and cast it just like any of his other powers. Once the caster attempts to cast his stolen spell, it is destroyed and is immediately discarded.

5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2/Witchfire - 24"/SD6+1/ap4/Assault 1, Large Blast, Ignores Cover

6. Infernal Gateway WC2/Witchfire - 18"/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1, Blast, Ignores Cover
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining the power's strength, use the Large Blast marker instead.

*Note: All powers have the Warpflame special rule (as codex: Daemons)



Now Thousand Sons have a dedicated role to play within the army, being the ultimate anvil/objective securing unit AND having a niche of being the anti-multi wound unit.
They're still gloriously expensive, but whereas Plaguemarines are the 'forceful' resilient unit that can be tailored to fulfill any role, Thousand Sons are even harder (in a sense) to kill off, but have far less tactical flexibility.

The lore of Tzeentch is also more varied, and while overall blasty, contains a couple of very unique hexes that play into Tzeentch's background as a manipulator and seeker/stealer of knowledge.

I've got a radical idea, here: instead of Ignores Cover, give their Inferno Bolts the Fleshbane (4+) rule.

4+, so they don't turbomurderize anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, but Fleshbane vice Poisoned so it still hurts GCs. Huzzah, Chaos now has a fairly useful anti-MC unit, that also tears up MEQ. Obviously, the points issue and the psychic issue needs some fixing, though I think giving the Aspiring Sorcerer access to Pyromancy helps a lot.

jade_angel wrote:
I've got a radical idea, here: instead of Ignores Cover, give their Inferno Bolts the Fleshbane (4+) rule.

4+, so they don't turbomurderize anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, but Fleshbane vice Poisoned so it still hurts GCs. Huzzah, Chaos now has a fairly useful anti-MC unit, that also tears up MEQ. Obviously, the points issue and the psychic issue needs some fixing, though I think giving the Aspiring Sorcerer access to Pyromancy helps a lot.

This would be good! Decent MC killers are hard to get in the Codex, so Fleshbane (4+) would be pretty good - reduce the points to Sternguard level, and ignore S&P if the Aspiring Sorceror is alive, or Relentless if a Thousand Sons Sorcerer is present in the unit. Fix Tzeentchian powers generally, and the unit has a niche.

jade_angel wrote:
I've got a radical idea, here: instead of Ignores Cover, give their Inferno Bolts the Fleshbane (4+) rule.

4+, so they don't turbomurderize anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, but Fleshbane vice Poisoned so it still hurts GCs. Huzzah, Chaos now has a fairly useful anti-MC unit, that also tears up MEQ. Obviously, the points issue and the psychic issue needs some fixing, though I think giving the Aspiring Sorcerer access to Pyromancy helps a lot.

What's the fluff justification for this idea?

They're not shooting poisoned or acidic rounds. They're shooting what are, for all intents and purposes, a magical version of dragonfire sternguard rounds.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
I've got a radical idea, here: instead of Ignores Cover, give their Inferno Bolts the Fleshbane (4+) rule.

4+, so they don't turbomurderize anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, but Fleshbane vice Poisoned so it still hurts GCs. Huzzah, Chaos now has a fairly useful anti-MC unit, that also tears up MEQ. Obviously, the points issue and the psychic issue needs some fixing, though I think giving the Aspiring Sorcerer access to Pyromancy helps a lot.

What's the fluff justification for this idea?

They're not shooting poisoned or acidic rounds. They're shooting what are, for all intents and purposes, a magical version of dragonfire sternguard rounds.

Precisely. Magic.
It can easily be fluffed as Tzeentch imbuing the rounds of his chosen with the power to bring change to even the strongest of beasts. Fleshbane isn't poison or acid - that's what the Poisoned rule is there for.

Sternguard have Poison (2+) anyways, and the most LIKELY equivalent of Inferno bolts to Sternguard is actually the Vengeance rounds (AP3). Fleshbane gives them a niche, and greatly increases their range of valid targets. After all, anything with T4 and higher is an increase in efficiency from the likely comparison of Sternguard Vengeance rounds, and anything that is T3 or lower can be taken care of by the rest of the army's bolters.

jade_angel wrote:
I've got a radical idea, here: instead of Ignores Cover, give their Inferno Bolts the Fleshbane (4+) rule.

4+, so they don't turbomurderize anything that doesn't have a 2+ save, but Fleshbane vice Poisoned so it still hurts GCs. Huzzah, Chaos now has a fairly useful anti-MC unit, that also tears up MEQ. Obviously, the points issue and the psychic issue needs some fixing, though I think giving the Aspiring Sorcerer access to Pyromancy helps a lot.

I like it.
I assume they'd keep the strength 4 and thus reroll to wound T4 or lower?
One of the worst aspects of Thousand sons is how- point for point, they don't out-shoot un-upgraded tactical marines.

Yep, magic is exactly what I had in mind.

Actually, they wouldn't reroll: only Poisoned does that, and then only on melee attacks, and then only when the Strength exceeds the target's Toughness. Shred would be good, but hard to justify, I think. But I think keeping the S4 makes sense, if only so they don't end up with the "splinter rifles against Guardsmen" problem, and so they can still damage AV10.

They won't do any better against Terminators, Broadsides and other T4/2+ guys than un-upgraded Tacticals will, but they'll sure as heck do better against anything with more than T4, or with a 3+ or 4+ save.

Any thoughts on these?
I tried to go back to their 3rd edition incarnations, which had them as a far more unique unit... their big issue at the time was that like their current iteration, their damage output sucked.

Thousand Sons need free heavy bolters and inferno ammo.

Heavy Bolters or Autocannons as possible weapons are actually going to be part of my fix for them when I finalize everything for my fixes.

Thousand Sons are supposed to be all about the psychic powers. They don't need heavy bolters or better guns or any of that. They need to be an effective sorcerer delivery system. So the first step in fixing them is to make the sorcerer worthwhile. Allow the sorcerer to purchase additional ML and make the Tzeentch powers actually good. In fact maybe even give them their own dedicated Rubricae lore with powers focused on buffing Rubricae.

Get rid of Inferno Bolts or change them to just be regular bolters with Force so they're not overpaying for AP3. Either bring their pts cost down or give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot going for them.

It occurs to me:

If units could assault from stationary vehicles again, thousand sons would be much more playable.

Move 18 inches in a rhino with dirge caster.

Disembark on the following turn. Cast force. Rapidfire AP 3 bolters. Charge with thousand sons squad with aspiring sorcerer with force weapon.

Rubrics are absolutely terrible in combat. That's probably one of the dumbest things you've ever proclaimed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Rubrics are absolutely terrible in combat. That's probably one of the dumbest things you've ever proclaimed.

Rubrics are. The sorcerer with the force weapon and boltpistol? Not so much.