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Back to the original complaint, GW has made a few select vanilla gimmicks WAY better than anything else in the book. That's one problem. SW have two units way better than anything else. DA have ravenwing, which is WAY better than greenwing or deathwing. Ironically, the BA have the best internal balance, as we can field many, many mediocre to poor lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:
To suggest that Space Marines are a flashy sideshow in a setting where they participate in so many of its defining and key moments is dumb.

Well feth you too, then.

Quite simply, it's not "dumb". Space Marines are a mere million amidst untold trillions of Imperial humans, who aren't even the totality of all humanity, and are outnumbered by the untold quadrillions of Orks and Tyranids and other xenos, and the endless legions of demons. Their accomplishments are a propaganda piece pushed by the Imperium, and there are NEVER enough Marines to go around. Their victories distracting the masses of the Imperium from the fact that we live in a dark galaxy of sin, surrounded by things that want to destroy us. There is no peace amongst the stars, bought by the lives and blood spilled by Space Marines. There is no progress, and understanding, there is no technological advance, there is no peace amongst the stars. There is only war.

On the countless billions of worlds in the Milky Way rage countless billions of battles, only a fraction of a fraction being "blessed" by the presence of a Space Marine. The whims and egos of the Astartes chapters often even make them AVOID pivotal battles that would save so many of the Imperium's planets and people, for they decide that they have other priorities instead so they'll go do those rather than respond to requests for reinforcements so that they can go participate in some minor battle elsewhere for some minor selfish pursuit that benefits their chapter, instead.

For such is the state of the galaxy. Its stories go far beyond what GW is willing to provide, never mind what it is able. 40k is more than Space Marines and always has been. I was of course intentionally being provocative when I described them as a "flashy side show", but it does have some truth to it-- they're legends that most people will never get to see, after all, and legends that never participate in most battles, even battles that determine the fate of entire sectors often have not a single Marine in them.

40k is more than Space Marines. It is a vast and expansive universe. So, Mr Nancy Pantsy Space Marine lover, since apparently all of 40k is dumb and irrelevant to you unless it includes Space Marines, I suggest you just don't actually like the setting.

I find it easier to reject GW's printed chapter strengths than reject all the battles that allegedly had space marines at them. Magically.

Martel732 wrote:
I find it easier to reject GW's printed chapter strengths than reject all the battles that allegedly had space marines at them. Magically.

I find it easier to point out that "all the battles that allegedly had Space Marines at them" is a mere fraction of a fraction of all the battles in the galaxy. But you know, you could instead just pretend I said that other thing if it makes you feel better and you want to be direspectful.

 Melissia wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I find it easier to reject GW's printed chapter strengths than reject all the battles that allegedly had space marines at them. Magically.

I find it easier to point out that "all the battles that allegedly had Space Marines at them" is a mere fraction of a fraction of all the battles in the galaxy. But you know, you could instead just pretend I said that other thing if it makes you feel better and you want to be direspectful.

I"m not being disrespectful. You read that the wrong way. I also find it absurd that marines are in so many battles at a chapter strength of 1K. Yet, they magically seems to be everywhere. All the time. Doing things by themselves. With 1K members.

One might argue that GW just doesn't bother to talk about the other battles, but even with the ones they list in the canon, it's beyond my suspension of disbelief.

Martel732 wrote:
Back to the original complaint, GW has made a few select vanilla gimmicks WAY better than anything else in the book. That's one problem. SW have two units way better than anything else. DA have ravenwing, which is WAY better than greenwing or deathwing. Ironically, the BA have the best internal balance, as we can field many, many mediocre to poor lists.

Martel, you and I have the same feeling. Even tac marines in general are bad, the only thing that makes them decent is either the Gladius spam, throwing them on bikes, or just spamming Grav after Grav.

Tac marines have poor offense/pt, and giving them more offense hurts their durability/pt considerably. That's why dire avengers are better. They aren't paying for bladestorm as far as I can tell. It's like a tac squad not paying for a plasma/combi-plas.

As others have stated, the gladius is GW admitting that base marines need a handicap to compete. The White Scar/Khan absurdity is just another unintended consequence.

Fine, sorry Martel. Previous posts post put me on edge.

 jreilly89 wrote:

But yes, it is bullying when you say "I don't want to play you because you play X army" and "I'm going to get everyone to boycott X army because I don't like it", assuming it's current edition and rules legal. If you want to play something older/modified, that's fine, but understand some people won't want to.

So it is not bullying when someone doesn't want to play with older or modified rules but is bullying when someone doesn't want to play against SMs because of the boredom factor?

Why you can't "understand that some people won't want to" play against marines all the fething time?

Would it not also be bullying to force people to play against marines?

Some people don't like to play against unpainted armies for obvious aesthetic reasons with the idea that will also encourage people to paint them. Is that bullying?

 SolarCross wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

But yes, it is bullying when you say "I don't want to play you because you play X army" and "I'm going to get everyone to boycott X army because I don't like it", assuming it's current edition and rules legal. If you want to play something older/modified, that's fine, but understand some people won't want to.

So it is not bullying when someone doesn't want to play with older or modified rules but is bullying when someone doesn't want to play against SMs because of the boredom factor?

Why you can't "understand that some people won't want to" play against marines all the fething time?

Would it not also be bullying to force people to play against marines?

Some people don't like to play against unpainted armies for obvious aesthetic reasons with the idea that will also encourage people to paint them. Is that bullying?

It's not unreasonable to expect people to play a current edition of the game because 75% of the players will have moved to the new edition. You don't want to play against SM? Fine, don't. But calling for an all out boycott on SM players is bullying, and I'd argue the same if you were trying to boycott all unpainted armies.

 Melissia wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:

Melissia wrote:]Not true at all. Almost everything significant happens without Space Marines. They're quite rare.

I can't think of a single 40k campaign book since 3rd ed. that wasn't Space Marine centric

GW focuses its storytelling around things that happen to Space Marines. What many people forget, including GW itself, is that most things in the galaxy, including major crusades of trillions of people fighting each other, happen without a single Astartes.

If you define "significant" as "includes a Space Marine", then that means wars in which planets are destroyed and billions of people die and massive amounts of territory changes hands are insignificant, but a battle where a few dozen Marines destroy a few thousand Orks is. And that's dumb.

Melissa if GW focuses heavily on marines in the stories etc, use them as their postyer boy, etc. you don't have a leg to stand on in claiming they are some sort of side show to proper 40k. in the background fluff are "Orks vs Imperial guard" proably the most common fight? absolutely, but that doesn't mean it's the FOCUS

To loop back to the main post, it's easy to forget something that I have found common among nerds. We humans, as social creatures, love getting validation from other humans. It makes us feel like good, productive members of society. "God, can you believe manager Rob is such a tool?" Other co-workers laugh, we feel validated.

The same thing goes in the gaming world. We're in a social setting and that means that we will look for ways to feel validated in it. The quickest and easiest way to feel validated is to complain about something you know someone else will likely complain about, due to the fact that people love complaining and they love being validated while they complain. So if I say "oh, boy, more Space Marines! Ugh, don't you just get tired of seeing them all the time?" That is an invitation for ANYONE in the room to both complain and invite themselves for further validation. It's a circle-jerk of validation which humans love.

So combine that with the fact that we know from the internet that Space Marines are ominpresent (fluff, in-game, modelling, rules, tournament lists, etc) with the fact that people love validation circle-jerks, we have the scenario you describe. I guarantee that anyone playing Eldar, Necrons or Tau gets the same response. Even I jokingly quip "Ooph, Wraith-knight, eh? Bet you're tired of having friends" when I see someone put one on the table, after which I quickly clarify that I'm kidding. (I'm aware I really need to stop doing it)

So don't validate those people and they'll go looking for it somewhere else. Ignoring them is the easy route. A quick "yup" and focus on your game/ opponent. The more engaged they are, the harder they'll try to get validated. It's a silly instinct we humans have, but also a predictable one. The more satisfying response in my opinion is to turn the conversation from a negative one to a positive, by retorting with "Oh, man, absolutely, I bloody love Space Marines, been waiting so long to get this army on the table and ready to kick some arse." I guarantee your enthusiasm for your army, if expressed properly, will out-weigh your heckler's enthusiasm for hatred. Simply because your opponent is not expressing a truly held belief, your heckler is just fishing for social brownie-points.

Martel732 wrote:
I"m not being disrespectful. You read that the wrong way. I also find it absurd that marines are in so many battles at a chapter strength of 1K. Yet, they magically seems to be everywhere. All the time. Doing things by themselves. With 1K members.

Well we are talking about closer to 1million marines 1k size chapters and 1k chapters..

But really we are also talking about battles within a 2000/3000 year if not longer period (M39 to M42 gernerally), in a galaxy that is entirely filled with war the amount of stories out there are pretty low

One million marines is still a tiny number in a galactic level conflict. You'd lose tens of thousands on a losing front alone.

Martel732 wrote:
Tac marines have poor offense/pt, and giving them more offense hurts their durability/pt considerably. That's why dire avengers are better. They aren't paying for bladestorm as far as I can tell. It's like a tac squad not paying for a plasma/combi-plas.

As others have stated, the gladius is GW admitting that base marines need a handicap to compete. The White Scar/Khan absurdity is just another unintended consequence.

DA vs tac marine

profiles
Da 1 point less, minus 1 S minus 1 T plus 1 I plus 1 L 4+ instead of 3+

weapons
DA gun is 18 inch range assault 2 and pseudo rend as opposed to 24 inch rapid fire same, space marines get krak grenades
tac marines can take special weaposn or heavy weapons per 5. DA do not get special weapons outside of exarch and those are melee or Tl on a BS5. SM has beter melee weapon option outside the diresword, but DA can get a 5++ for unit (for 20 points)

special rules
DA get battle focus and a anti slaneesh rule, SM get ATSKNF chapter tactics, and combat squads

I might agree with you that Tac marines are not worth 14 points compared to other models, but by that same token they are at least a point better than DA (DA are really not one of the OP elder units they are just decent troops)... now if you want to talk op elder for points look at windriders and scatterlaser bikes

We were ruling those out.

I think the pseudo rending and battle focus make the DA better than tac marines.

Martel732 wrote:
One million marines is still a tiny number in a galactic level conflict. You'd lose tens of thousands on a losing front alone.

It is also why you rarely see marines go in full force even in the stories except for the most crucial battles. otherwise they are generally hitting a specific target and then getting out.

And while you can lose tens of Thousands of Guard on a losing front, that I more because they are thrown into the meat grinder, while marines will fall back if they think their position is unattainable.

The table top game is not a great representation of warfare, neither are PC games, in which marines get thrown around like candy

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One million marines is still a tiny number in a galactic level conflict. You'd lose tens of thousands on a losing front alone.

It is also why you rarely see marines go in full force even in the stories except for the most crucial battles. otherwise they are generally hitting a specific target and then getting out.

And while you can lose tens of Thousands of Guard on a losing front, that I more because they are thrown into the meat grinder, while marines will fall back if they think their position is unattainable.

The table top game is not a great representation of warfare, neither are PC games, in which marines get thrown around like candy

I understand that's how GW says it would work, but falling back doesn't always work. You can't always hit a specific target and then get out. Things go wrong. 1K strong chapters not only can't get any coverage on a planet, they can't tolerate anything going wrong, either. I think the PC games and tabletop are actually closer to what it would be like than GW's fiction.

Martel732 wrote:

I understand that's how GW says it would work, but falling back doesn't always work. You can't always hit a specific target and then get out. Things go wrong. 1K strong chapters not only can't get any coverage on a planet, they can't tolerate anything going wrong, either. I think the PC games and tabletop are actually closer to what it would be like than GW's fiction.

Well no.. for Guard maybe

But Marines are not a blunt instrument. They wouldn't attack something if they didn't have the advantage, they are not suicidal. While sometimes there are situations where they don't have the choice due to tactical importance, but normally in those cases they only send in a squad or two.

Also it is rare even in the stories where you see an entire Chapter deployed, normally at most you will see a Company.. and when they are mentioning multiple chapters being present.. you would still likely be look at a couple hundred marines

I can only think of maybe 5 Stories where an entire Chapter has taken the field (excluding Horus Herey era, but then again they are legions), and then normally they are desperate defensive hold at all cost actions in which they do take heavy losses and make it through by the skin of their teeth against superior forces

Ultimately people get mad their special snowflake army doesn't get as much attention.

Granted, Dark Angels and Blood Angels should really be rolled in the Vanilla Codex, but otherwise Space Wolves, Death Watch, and Grey Knights function super differently than regular Chapters.

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I understand that's how GW says it would work, but falling back doesn't always work. You can't always hit a specific target and then get out. Things go wrong. 1K strong chapters not only can't get any coverage on a planet, they can't tolerate anything going wrong, either. I think the PC games and tabletop are actually closer to what it would be like than GW's fiction.

Well no.. for Guard maybe

But Marines are not a blunt instrument. They wouldn't attack something if they didn't have the advantage, they are not suicidal. While sometimes there are situations where they don't have the choice due to tactical importance, but normally in those cases they only send in a squad or two.

Also it is rare even in the stories where you see an entire Chapter deployed, normally at most you will see a Company.. and when they are mentioning multiple chapters being present.. you would still likely be look at a couple hundred marines

I can only think of maybe 5 Stories where an entire Chapter has taken the field (excluding Horus Herey era, but then again they are legions), and then normally they are desperate defensive hold at all cost actions in which they do take heavy losses and make it through by the skin of their teeth against superior forces

They might THINK they have the advantage, but end up not having the advantage. Those things happen. It's war. A squad or two means nothing to a planetary conflict. Logically, an entire chapter probably would make no difference at all. But that's not the fluff, I know. The fluff is wrong.

Did I really just see Eldar players whining about something not being good in their codex? You guys have literally an entire codex of good to amazing choices.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

...And...Eldar don't rely on a few broken units? Try using the 80% of the book that isn't Windriders, Wraithguard/Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Warp Spiders. You may find they get knocked out of the top tier rather quickly.

The top tier these days is entirely full of bad design decisions (Summoning + Pink Horrors + DP shenanigans, Riptides, full-heavy-weapon-density jetbike squads, grav-weapons, free Razorbacks...). The vast majority of the game doesn't work that way, but since GW refuses to review decisions once made tournament lists are stocked with their errors.

Most of the Eldar codex is very good. The number of dud units is tiny (Howling banshees, storm guardians, and... that's it?) and even they got buffed.

In the top tier, you see less variety, but aforementioned CSM lists that give non-niche SM builds a smacking struggle vastly more against a balanced Eldar list.

Banshees. Storm Guardians. Rangers. Fire Dragons. Shining Spears. Vypers. Autarchs. Warlock Conclaves. Wraithblades. Falcons. An argument could be made for Guardian Defenders as well.

The issue with being the 'highly specialized army' is that units with too narrow a focus find themselves utterly pointless in all-comers lists. Fire Dragons are quite worthwhile if the other guy has a superheavy tank or a Land Raider, and are an overpriced suicide unit otherwise. Shining Spears require (quite specifically) 3+-armour units with lower than 5 Initiative.

Autarchs do quite close to nothing, Vypers are a schizoid and inefficient heavy weapon platform, Warlock Conclaves haven't figured out that they're paying the same price per model as Warlock squad leaders without the ability to generate and use a power per model, Falcons are running on the Predator problem where a Pulse Laser was enough to make it a main battle tank in 4e and the loadout has been grandfathered in despite the fact that the entire game has gotten much bigger around them, Rangers suffer from the continuous stack of nerfs that have been getting piled onto snipers every edition since 3rd, Wraithblades are slow, have no good delivery mechanism, and don't have enough attacks...

(If you compare the Vyper's weapon load to the Land Speeder's you'll get some picture of why it's a dumb unit; a Land Speeder has guns (multi-melta, heavy flamer) that benefit from being brough up close to the enemy, a Vyper is an assortment of plain ordinary long-ranged support heavy weapons that happen to have gotten stuck onto a Fast Skimmer for no good reason.)

"Shining Spears require (quite specifically) 3+-armour units with lower than 5 Initiative. "

That's what? 66% of the game?

I prefer long range weapons on skimmers. Getting close is a death sentence.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Did I really just see Eldar players whining about something not being good in their codex? You guys have literally an entire codex of good to amazing choices.

...We have a Codex that's about 1/4 grotesquely overpowered, 1/4 merely good, 1/4 okay, and 1/4 actually bad.

Internal balance in this book is terrible, despite popular opinion on the subject.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"Shining Spears require (quite specifically) 3+-armour units with lower than 5 Initiative. "

That's what? 66% of the game?

EXPENSIVE 3+ armour units with lower than 5 Initiative. Point a Shining Spear unit in the direction of most Space Marine lists and it'll have a serious challenge making its points back.

Eldar are better than that. Your bar is too high. Also, consider that every choice in the marine codex that a) has the marine stat line and b) doesn't have a gimmick is basically bad.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar are better than that. Your bar is too high. Also, consider that every choice in the marine codex that a) has the marine stat line and b) doesn't have a gimmick is basically bad.

You're the one who claims Drop Pods and Rhinos aren't that good and spends all his time on Proposed Rules telling people that anything below S6 is basically pointless.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Did I really just see Eldar players whining about something not being good in their codex? You guys have literally an entire codex of good to amazing choices.

...We have a Codex that's about 1/4 grotesquely overpowered, 1/4 merely good, 1/4 okay, and 1/4 actually bad.

Internal balance in this book is terrible, despite popular opinion on the subject.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"Shining Spears require (quite specifically) 3+-armour units with lower than 5 Initiative. "

That's what? 66% of the game?

EXPENSIVE 3+ armour units with lower than 5 Initiative. Point a Shining Spear unit in the direction of most Space Marine lists and it'll have a serious challenge making its points back.

You mean a quarter that's grotesquely overpowered, then half of choices that are just as good or better than other codex equivalents, and then a quarter of bad units.

It's a little more complex than that. For example, bladestorm really helps out a S4 weapon. S5 on a firewarrior is great. S5 on an imperial heavy weapon? Not so great.

The units the Eldar get just work better in the 7th ed meta than what non-gimmick marines get. Same for tau.

If you can't beat non-free drop pods and non-free rhinos with xeno shooting, I can't help you. The gimmicks make the marines go, nothing else. Their baseline costing is not favorable.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little more complex than that. For example, bladestorm really helps out a S4 weapon. S5 on a firewarrior is great. S5 on an imperial heavy weapon? Not so great.

The units the Eldar get just work better in the 7th ed meta than what non-gimmick marines get. Same for tau.

How many points, exactly, do you think you need to dump into a Guardian Defender unit to make Bladestorm remotely worthwhile?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ultimately people get mad their special snowflake army doesn't get as much attention.

Granted, Dark Angels and Blood Angels should really be rolled in the Vanilla Codex, but otherwise Space Wolves, Death Watch, and Grey Knights function super differently than regular Chapters.

Space wolves can just be another option that represents the less codex compliant descendants.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ultimately people get mad their special snowflake army doesn't get as much attention.

Granted, Dark Angels and Blood Angels should really be rolled in the Vanilla Codex, but otherwise Space Wolves, Death Watch, and Grey Knights function super differently than regular Chapters.

Space wolves can just be another option that represents the less codex compliant descendants.

You might also get Tactical Squads allowed the pistol/CCW loadout again more generally. And Cleanse and Purify from the 4e book (two special weapons instead of one special/one heavy in Tactical Squads) could come back. And power weapon/storm bolter could become the generic basic loadout for Terminators like it should be.