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Are there any good codicies?

I will say Eldar have obscenely undercosted sergeant upgrades. For comparison:

Deldar pay 10pts to upgrade a regular joe into a sergeant equivalent (SEQ), what does that get you?
+1 A, +1 Ld and that is it.

Tau pay 10pts for their SEQ and they also get:
+1 A (pointless considering Tau fighting style) and +1 Ld

Eldar also pay 10pts for a SEQ upgrade but they get:
+1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1I, +1A !!!!!!!!!

That is pretty sick.

Eldar, can we swap codexes?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar, can we swap codexes?

There's a difference between "my Codex is strong" and "the s*** units in my Codex are strong". And if you really want to start an Eldar army nobody's stopping you.

(The party line among Space Marine players seems to be "the Eldar do all things better than everyone else, in that I've defined 'all things' to be things Eldar do and 'things that don't matter' to be things Space Marines do".)

Let's be real here. The close combat stats on a tac marine don't help them at all. The special rules for the Eldar S4 gun is FAR more useful. The ONLY thing the marine has is a 3+ vs a 4+. T4 is still kinda nice, but we are in the era of T4 being wounded on a 2+ constantly.

Just putting a couple reliable wounds on an MC (even 2+ MCs!) without having to buy expensive guns like plasma makes them a much more meta relevant troop.

Yes, bladestorm does nothing to vehicles. But 7th ed has made sure that non-free vehicles are mostly bad, so you don't need the help there.

Also, I'm not talking guardians. I'm talking about dire avengers. With dire avengers, there's no reason to ever take the guardians. Although BS 4 guardians do bring a lot more pain than tac marines on a per point basis once you get them in range.

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be real here. The close combat stats on a tac marine don't help them at all. The special rules for the Eldar S4 gun is FAR more useful. The ONLY thing the marine has is a 3+ vs a 4+. T4 is still kinda nice, but we are in the era of T4 being wounded on a 2+ constantly.

Just putting a couple reliable wounds on an MC (even 2+ MCs!) without having to buy expensive guns like plasma makes them a much more meta relevant troop.

Yes, bladestorm does nothing to vehicles. But 7th ed has made sure that non-free vehicles are mostly bad, so you don't need the help there.

Also, I'm not talking guardians. I'm talking about dire avengers. With dire avengers, there's no reason to ever take the guardians. Although BS 4 guardians do bring a lot more pain than tac marines on a per point basis once you get them in range.

Problem bolded for emphasis. How many of your 12pt T3/4+ models are going to get in 18" range to 'get a couple of reliable wounds' on an MC? Three? Four?

The supposed efficiency of Bladestorm is utterly killed by the fact that you need a 110pt transport to make any use of it.

First, it's a damn nice transport that is very capable of finishing off said MC.

Secondly, I constantly use 11 pt models with a 4+ on foot that have to get EVEN closer to the enemy. At least DA can stay much further away from the dreaded heavy flamer.

morgoth wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Marines are a meh army without slowed gimmicks.

Once you ignore bike stars, lib conclaves, bikes of all sorts and, gladius' then its meh, hardly top tier.

Eldar are top tier because literally everything is good, theres like what, two, maybe three units that are meh, nothing that is plain bad.

Tau are sorta monobuild, in the same way marines are. You aren't gonna win spamming firewarriors and pathfinders + tanks

I think you should try Eldar, every unit in the codex, before saying something like that.
Interestingly enough, every person who has done that knows that Eldar have units that are worse than firewarriors in devilfishes.

I think that most of my experience with eldar comes from Ynari, so I might be a bit biased in saying that wraithblades aren't bad with Yvraine and the Visarch tanking for them.

spears were a decent countercharge unit in the one proxy game I played them in, but yeah I'll agree that wraithlords, banshees, and rangers all bad, but there are so many worse units in the game.

Oh and fire prisms are not the best, but definitely far from the worst tank in the game.

 Melissia wrote:

 Quinzy wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
I don't see my two solutions as bullying but as feedback.

Excluding people until they spend money on a new army is just 'feedback' and not bullying?

You mean like what happens every time there's a new codex that excludes options you previously used and makes your army build non-viable? Is GW bullying when that happens, and are people bullying whenever they refuse to play against the old army list that is no longer legal in the current rules?

I find it downright funny that it's considered "bullying" to say "screw it, I'm in it to win".

An army not supported by an edition change is not the same as categorically refusing to play anyone using an army because of your boredom. If you cannot see the difference then I don't know what more I can say.
A games company not updating a product is not the same as someone, in person, organising a group boycott of other players simply because of boredom. If you cannot see the difference then I don't know what more I can say.
Exclusion is bullying. Building an army list for tournament play is not what we're talking about. What is being talked about is active and categorical exclusion of players based on army choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:

Melissia wrote:]Not true at all. Almost everything significant happens without Space Marines. They're quite rare.

I can't think of a single 40k campaign book since 3rd ed. that wasn't Space Marine centric

GW focuses its storytelling around things that happen to Space Marines. What many people forget, including GW itself, is that most things in the galaxy, including major crusades of trillions of people fighting each other, happen without a single Astartes.

If you define "significant" as "includes a Space Marine", then that means wars in which planets are destroyed and billions of people die and massive amounts of territory changes hands are insignificant, but a battle where a few dozen Marines destroy a few thousand Orks is. And that's dumb.

Melissa if GW focuses heavily on marines in the stories etc, use them as their postyer boy, etc. you don't have a leg to stand on in claiming they are some sort of side show to proper 40k. in the background fluff are "Orks vs Imperial guard" proably the most common fight? absolutely, but that doesn't mean it's the FOCUS

Melissia has shown multiple times the inability to distinguish between something being common in the background lore versus what is actively pushed by the company who owns the lore. I'm sure for Melissia, vampires aren't the focus of the Vampire LARP because there are more normal humans than vampires in the setting background.

Martel732 wrote:
First, it's a damn nice transport that is very capable of finishing off said MC.

Secondly, I constantly use 11 pt models with a 4+ on foot that have to get EVEN closer to the enemy. At least DA can stay much further away from the dreaded heavy flamer.

If you're talking about Scouts they've got this thing called Infiltrate that lets them shortcut a reasonable chunk of table that Dire Avengers need to walk across.

And I don't know where you're getting your ideas about the Wave Serpent. Your glorious miracle MC-killing 228-pt twelve Guardian Defenders in a Wave Serpent with an extra shuriken cannon is going to deal (between the 30+d6 attacks you're rolling) a grand total of one Wound to a Riptide, by my math, in the exceedingly unlikely edge case where the Wave Serpent has made it that far without Jinking and is still otherwise intact. Two, if the Riptide hasn't overcharged its Ion Shield.

Yes, it has better price-performance against Riptides than assault-cannon Land Speeders (though the 325pts of assault-cannon Land Speeders it takes to equal that unit's performance do have 3x the hull points, twice the range, and don't die immediately after firing, so it may be a fairer trade-off than it sounds), but that doesn't make twelve Guardian Defenders in a Wave Serpent any good at killing Monstrous Creatures.

How about this comparison:

Vehicles dying too quick? No problem there are vehicle upgrades for that!

Imperial Guard can pay 15pts for camo netting to give their vehicle a cover save stronger by 1 point so 6+ in the open.

Tau can pay 15pts for disruption pods with do exactly the same thing as guard camo-nets.

Eldar can pay 15pts for holo-fields which give a 5++...

Does anyone think a 5++ is not loads better than a 6+ cover save?

 SolarCross wrote:
How about this comparison:

Vehicles dying too quick? No problem there are vehicle upgrades for that!

Imperial Guard can pay 15pts for camo netting to give their vehicle a cover save stronger by 1 point so 6+ in the open.

Tau can pay 15pts for disruption pods with do exactly the same thing as guard camo-nets.

Eldar can pay 15pts for holo-fields which give a 5++...

Does anyone think a 5++ is not loads better than a 6+ cover save?

Does anyone think the ability to sit behind an ADL for a 3+ cover save is not loads better than a 5++?

How about the ability to have higher than AV12? Or low-AP Blast weapons? Fire points?

Dark Eldar get to spend 15pts for a 5++ on their vehicles too, why are you not arguing that we need to rethink our estimates of that Codex?

..Did we just hit the point where Eldar vehicles are now being said to be worse then Imperial Guards?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
..Did we just hit the point where Eldar vehicles are now being said to be worse then Imperial Guards?

No, we're still in the middle of running around in circles waving our arms above our heads screaming about how all the stuff the Eldar do is better because it's stuff the Eldar do.

I thought I was pointing out that Holofields are worse than Camo-Netting, not that all Eldar vehicles are worse than all Guard vehicles.

Camo nets also stack with actual cover.

Ninja'd. That said I still think 5++ is better.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
How about this comparison:

Vehicles dying too quick? No problem there are vehicle upgrades for that!

Imperial Guard can pay 15pts for camo netting to give their vehicle a cover save stronger by 1 point so 6+ in the open.

Tau can pay 15pts for disruption pods with do exactly the same thing as guard camo-nets.

Eldar can pay 15pts for holo-fields which give a 5++...

Does anyone think a 5++ is not loads better than a 6+ cover save?

Does anyone think the ability to sit behind an ADL for a 3+ cover save is not loads better than a 5++?

How about the ability to have higher than AV12? Or low-AP Blast weapons? Fire points?

Dark Eldar get to spend 15pts for a 5++ on their vehicles too, why are you not arguing that we need to rethink our estimates of that Codex?

Sadly DE can't buy holofields anymore, it just comes base on venoms

I still gotta agree AnomanderRake

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
How about this comparison:

Vehicles dying too quick? No problem there are vehicle upgrades for that!

Imperial Guard can pay 15pts for camo netting to give their vehicle a cover save stronger by 1 point so 6+ in the open.

Tau can pay 15pts for disruption pods with do exactly the same thing as guard camo-nets.

Eldar can pay 15pts for holo-fields which give a 5++...

Does anyone think a 5++ is not loads better than a 6+ cover save?

Does anyone think the ability to sit behind an ADL for a 3+ cover save is not loads better than a 5++?

How about the ability to have higher than AV12? Or low-AP Blast weapons? Fire points?

Dark Eldar get to spend 15pts for a 5++ on their vehicles too, why are you not arguing that we need to rethink our estimates of that Codex?

ADLs cost extra and not much use to vehicles that need to move. There are a lot of ways to ignore cover but almost nothing ignores invulns (lucky hit with D is about it I think).

Dark Eldar can buy Night Shields for 15pts but they just give Stealth making them basically the same as camo-nets and disruption pods. The flickerfield which gives a 5++ is only available on the Venom and is bundled into its cost so it's pretty hard to say how much they are paying for it but it could be 15pts since the 55pt venom is otherwise pretty similar to a Vyper at 40pts. So that is a fair point.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
First, it's a damn nice transport that is very capable of finishing off said MC.

Secondly, I constantly use 11 pt models with a 4+ on foot that have to get EVEN closer to the enemy. At least DA can stay much further away from the dreaded heavy flamer.

If you're talking about Scouts they've got this thing called Infiltrate that lets them shortcut a reasonable chunk of table that Dire Avengers need to walk across.

And I don't know where you're getting your ideas about the Wave Serpent. Your glorious miracle MC-killing 228-pt twelve Guardian Defenders in a Wave Serpent with an extra shuriken cannon is going to deal (between the 30+d6 attacks you're rolling) a grand total of one Wound to a Riptide, by my math, in the exceedingly unlikely edge case where the Wave Serpent has made it that far without Jinking and is still otherwise intact. Two, if the Riptide hasn't overcharged its Ion Shield.

Yes, it has better price-performance against Riptides than assault-cannon Land Speeders (though the 325pts of assault-cannon Land Speeders it takes to equal that unit's performance do have 3x the hull points, twice the range, and don't die immediately after firing, so it may be a fairer trade-off than it sounds), but that doesn't make twelve Guardian Defenders in a Wave Serpent any good at killing Monstrous Creatures.

I'm talking about the T6 3+ variety. Almost nothing in the game is good at killing stimtides. Not grav. Not even D if they nova their shield. That's why I hate them so much. But against say DKs, or Tyranids, who can't make your serpent jink, it's significant. There's also a thing called a starcannon. I know Eldar are spoiled by D to the point that they don't normally consider taking actual AP2, but I'd actually kill for the starcannon on BA vehicles.

Scouts can't really do anything important till turn 2 because of infiltrate. I'm willing to be that DA can get within firing range of something by turn 2 in most games. They've got an average turn 2 threat range of at least 31".

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
First, it's a damn nice transport that is very capable of finishing off said MC.

Secondly, I constantly use 11 pt models with a 4+ on foot that have to get EVEN closer to the enemy. At least DA can stay much further away from the dreaded heavy flamer.

If you're talking about Scouts they've got this thing called Infiltrate that lets them shortcut a reasonable chunk of table that Dire Avengers need to walk across.

And I don't know where you're getting your ideas about the Wave Serpent. Your glorious miracle MC-killing 228-pt twelve Guardian Defenders in a Wave Serpent with an extra shuriken cannon is going to deal (between the 30+d6 attacks you're rolling) a grand total of one Wound to a Riptide, by my math, in the exceedingly unlikely edge case where the Wave Serpent has made it that far without Jinking and is still otherwise intact. Two, if the Riptide hasn't overcharged its Ion Shield.

Yes, it has better price-performance against Riptides than assault-cannon Land Speeders (though the 325pts of assault-cannon Land Speeders it takes to equal that unit's performance do have 3x the hull points, twice the range, and don't die immediately after firing, so it may be a fairer trade-off than it sounds), but that doesn't make twelve Guardian Defenders in a Wave Serpent any good at killing Monstrous Creatures.

I'm talking about the T6 3+ variety. Almost nothing in the game is good at killing stimtides. Not grav. Not even D if they nova their shield. That's why I hate them so much. But against say DKs, or Tyranids, who can't make your serpent jink, it's significant. There's also a thing called a starcannon. I know Eldar are spoiled by D to the point that they don't normally consider taking actual AP2, but I'd actually kill for the starcannon on BA vehicles.

Scouts can't really do anything important till turn 2 because of infiltrate. I'm willing to be that DA can get within firing range of something by turn 2 in most games. They've got an average turn 2 threat range of at least 31".

Which T6/3+ MCs? The flying ones, the sub-100pt ones, or the melee ones with 2+ Jink?

It doesn't matter. They still cause way more damage than a tactical squad.

Which goes back to the original point of base marine units being rather poor in the scheme of things. How good Eldar units actually are or aren't isn't that important to the overall point. There's still firewarriors and necron warriors, etc. Marine tanks are not really good, and any unit with the marine statline is not that good, either.

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter. They still cause way more damage than a tactical squad.

Do they though..

having 10 standard marines standing across from 10 guardians 12' away from each other.. I could see the maries winning

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be real here. The close combat stats on a tac marine don't help them at all. The special rules for the Eldar S4 gun is FAR more useful. The ONLY thing the marine has is a 3+ vs a 4+. T4 is still kinda nice, but we are in the era of T4 being wounded on a 2+ constantly.

Just putting a couple reliable wounds on an MC (even 2+ MCs!) without having to buy expensive guns like plasma makes them a much more meta relevant troop.

Yes, bladestorm does nothing to vehicles. But 7th ed has made sure that non-free vehicles are mostly bad, so you don't need the help there.

Also, I'm not talking guardians. I'm talking about dire avengers. With dire avengers, there's no reason to ever take the guardians. Although BS 4 guardians do bring a lot more pain than tac marines on a per point basis once you get them in range.

Problem bolded for emphasis. How many of your 12pt T3/4+ models are going to get in 18" range to 'get a couple of reliable wounds' on an MC? Three? Four?

The supposed efficiency of Bladestorm is utterly killed by the fact that you need a 110pt transport to make any use of it.

Oh yeah, you and your poor Wave Serpents, which are one of the most durable transports in the game for the points, on top of you already being able to run and shoot...

Eldar hate is way too strong in this thread.

Remember the part about bullying?

That's what I see here.

morgoth wrote:
Eldar hate is way too strong in this thread.

Remember the part about bullying?

That's what I see here.

Regardless of that the eldar "hate" is off-topic as this thread is about SM stigma rather than Eldar stigma. It isn't even the same kind of stigma, people have problems with Eldar for being strong cheese whereas people have problems with SMs because they are spam, (although they do have some cheese of their own to be fair).

 SolarCross wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Eldar hate is way too strong in this thread.

Remember the part about bullying?

That's what I see here.

Regardless of that the eldar "hate" is off-topic as this thread is about SM stigma rather than Eldar stigma. It isn't even the same kind of stigma, people have problems with Eldar for being strong cheese whereas people have problems with SMs because they are spam, (although they do have some cheese of their own to be fair).

The Space Marines have the cheesiest cheese of all with electro displacement deathstars and bs conclaves.
The only difference is that with all the SM players whining about Eldar and being 10x more numerous and being oblivious of their own OP gak, the echo chamber is mostly Eldar hate and SM denial.
That's how you end up with nonsense like "a drop pod for 35 points is not better than a wave serpent for 110 points" - which every good player knows to be absolutely wrong since codex craftworlds.

The problem people have in this thread with Space Marines is that SM are everywhere and boring by nature, boring by omnipresence on top.

And the problem we have on these forums, is that SM are everywhere and vehemently defending how everything good and not SM is disgustingly OP while pretending that SM is nowhere that good.


What's for dinner today? Space Marines.


So in a way, this is entirely on-topic: there are way too many space marines players and it isn't always a good thing.

Melissia wrote:40k is more than Space Marines. It is a vast and expansive universe. So since apparently all of 40k is dumb and irrelevant to you unless it includes Space Marines, I suggest you just don't actually like the setting.

Acknowledging the emphasis GW places on Space Marines is not the same as liking it. Acknowledging that GW places them at the center or heavily involves them in nearly every major narrative event or campaign is not the same as me having a disregard for other aspects of the 40k universe. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Quinzy wrote:
Melissia has shown multiple times the inability to distinguish between something being common in the background lore versus what is actively pushed by the company who owns the lore. I'm sure for Melissia, vampires aren't the focus of the Vampire LARP because there are more normal humans than vampires in the setting background.

An illustrative example might be the Avengers, who aren't involved in the every single thing in the Marvel universe, and are tiny fraction of Earth's population, nevermind the galaxy -- yet they remain an important and defining element of that setting. Plenty of people enjoy Marvel comics and characters that have very little to do with the Avengers, but there's no denying their importance to the setting.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Space wolves can just be another option that represents the less codex compliant descendants.

This is a complete aside, but I recall a few Iron Hands players using the Space Wolves book (during 5th ed iirc) because it actually presented their lore a bit better on the table. Always thought that was hilariously odd.

morgoth wrote:
The problem people have in this thread with Space Marines is that SM are everywhere and boring by nature, boring by omnipresence on top.

And the problem we have on these forums, is that SM are everywhere and vehemently defending how everything good and not SM is disgustingly OP while pretending that SM is nowhere that good.

What's for dinner today? Space Marines.

So in a way, this is entirely on-topic: there are way too many space marines players and it isn't always a good thing.

Rock is imbalanced according to Scissors

For as long as I've been in the hobby, which is nearly 18 years at this point, there have always been too many Space Marine players and I don't ever see it fully going away. Probably a symptom of Space Marines being the posterboys and being in every starter box (though longer term players might appreciate their consistent rules and hobby versatility). Getting a powerful codex does wonders for boosting a faction's numbers, I've noticed a lot more Tau and Eldar players recently, but positive examples in the community can a little too. I played Orks for the better part of 3rd ed. simply because there was a local Ork player who had a beautiful army and always had a raucously good time playing. But at the end of the day, everyone can play Space Marines if they like, it's their hobby too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's be real here. The close combat stats on a tac marine don't help them at all. The special rules for the Eldar S4 gun is FAR more useful. The ONLY thing the marine has is a 3+ vs a 4+. T4 is still kinda nice, but we are in the era of T4 being wounded on a 2+ constantly.

Just putting a couple reliable wounds on an MC (even 2+ MCs!) without having to buy expensive guns like plasma makes them a much more meta relevant troop.

Yes, bladestorm does nothing to vehicles. But 7th ed has made sure that non-free vehicles are mostly bad, so you don't need the help there.

Also, I'm not talking guardians. I'm talking about dire avengers. With dire avengers, there's no reason to ever take the guardians. Although BS 4 guardians do bring a lot more pain than tac marines on a per point basis once you get them in range.

Problem bolded for emphasis. How many of your 12pt T3/4+ models are going to get in 18" range to 'get a couple of reliable wounds' on an MC? Three? Four?

The supposed efficiency of Bladestorm is utterly killed by the fact that you need a 110pt transport to make any use of it.

Oh yeah, you and your poor Wave Serpents, which are one of the most durable transports in the game for the points, on top of you already being able to run and shoot...

Let me try and rephrase that.

Would you take a suicide-melta squad if Drop Pods cost 110pts?

(Wave Serpents are pretty good (they're in the 1/4 of the Codex that is merely good rather than grotesquely OP), but trying to claim they're good because they enable suicide-Bladestorm-rushes is dumb.)

Martel732 wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I understand that's how GW says it would work, but falling back doesn't always work. You can't always hit a specific target and then get out. Things go wrong. 1K strong chapters not only can't get any coverage on a planet, they can't tolerate anything going wrong, either. I think the PC games and tabletop are actually closer to what it would be like than GW's fiction.

Well no.. for Guard maybe

But Marines are not a blunt instrument. They wouldn't attack something if they didn't have the advantage, they are not suicidal. While sometimes there are situations where they don't have the choice due to tactical importance, but normally in those cases they only send in a squad or two.

Also it is rare even in the stories where you see an entire Chapter deployed, normally at most you will see a Company.. and when they are mentioning multiple chapters being present.. you would still likely be look at a couple hundred marines

I can only think of maybe 5 Stories where an entire Chapter has taken the field (excluding Horus Herey era, but then again they are legions), and then normally they are desperate defensive hold at all cost actions in which they do take heavy losses and make it through by the skin of their teeth against superior forces

They might THINK they have the advantage, but end up not having the advantage. Those things happen. It's war. A squad or two means nothing to a planetary conflict. Logically, an entire chapter probably would make no difference at all. But that's not the fluff, I know. The fluff is wrong.

well logically [in the fluff since this is all fictional, and makes no sense to compare to real life in any way], when you have super human warriors, who heal like wolverine [almost] can fight without stopping for months at a time, have special organs and other biological upgrades that make them stronger, faster than master chief in halo, who can survive in the vacuum of space unprotected for x amount of time, are immortal and are all geniuses AND on top of that, they wear armour that is resistant to most weapons, and further enhances their speed, endurance and strength, it makes sense that just a 100 marines could take a planet over with the support of the Guard - Guard holds the ground/provides bodies and the marines take out HVT's. In the fluff the are so many instances of marines literally wading through enemies like they are just strolling through the surf at the beach. I just read a short story about 30 marines dropping onto a [human] planet that had been corrupted by chaos and them, plus the remaining Guard regiment, managed to hold back the entire planet for 6 months before the marines evacuated. [10 million men verses like 10,000 + 30] they lost all the Guard and half their number, but killed millions in return.

Also fictional fluff cant be wrong, because its not real. its not supposed to make "logical" sense. Thats like saying Harry potter cant be magic because magic isnt real and therefore JK is a liar........

 FEARtheMoose wrote:
...well logically [in the fluff since this is all fictional, and makes no sense to compare to real life in any way], when you have super human warriors, who heal like wolverine [almost] can fight without stopping for months at a time, have special organs and other biological upgrades that make them stronger, faster than master chief in halo, who can survive in the vacuum of space unprotected for x amount of time, are immortal and are all geniuses AND on top of that, they wear armour that is resistant to most weapons, and further enhances their speed, endurance and strength, it makes sense that just a 100 marines could take a planet over with the support of the Guard - Guard holds the ground/provides bodies and the marines take out HVT's. In the fluff the are so many instances of marines literally wading through enemies like they are just strolling through the surf at the beach. I just read a short story about 30 marines dropping onto a [human] planet that had been corrupted by chaos and them, plus the remaining Guard regiment, managed to hold back the entire planet for 6 months before the marines evacuated. [10 million men verses like 10,000 + 30] they lost all the Guard and half their number, but killed millions in return.

Also fictional fluff cant be wrong, because its not real. its not supposed to make "logical" sense. Thats like saying Harry potter cant be magic because magic isnt real and therefore JK is a liar........

Follow-up to this point (and trying to make logical sense of it, yes) consider that a 'planet' in 40k doesn't always mean 'a Hive World with a population of ten billion people', it might be 'a mining outpost with a population of five million people, three million of whom are servitors', and 'conquering the planet' could just mean 'taking over the spaceport and leaving a Guard occupation force to establish a PDF and beat any remaining resistance into submission while most of the Guardsmen and the Space Marines bugger off back to space'.

Consider also that in stories where Marines win glorious victory killing millions of enemies the millions of enemies are too poor to have even flak armour and lasguns. We're talking armies of Chaos Cultists on the 1942 Red Army logistics plan ("one man drops the rifle, the other man picks it up!") or using crossbows.

Then why aren't ba drop pods good? If pods are op for 35 pts. Pods are quite often a 35 pt suicide machine. A wave serpent gives you way more tactical options.

Electrodisplacement as the biggest cheese? Please. You have to roll the power ( which loth can't take btw) and then cast it and then not be denied. And against cheese eldar lists if 's a one way ticket to CC with a wk.

Again let me repeat that i'm talking about gimmickless marines. And that's definitely a gimmick.

Martel732 wrote:
Then why aren't ba drop pods good? If pods are op for 35 pts. Pods are quite often a 35 pt suicide machine. A wave serpent gives you way more tactical options.

Electrodisplacement as the biggest cheese? Please. You have to roll the power ( which loth can't take btw) and then cast it and then not be denied. And against cheese eldar lists if 's a one way ticket to CC with a wk.

Again let me repeat that i'm talking about gimmickless marines. And that's definitely a gimmick.

Drop Pods are very good. You just don't like them.

(They may also be part of the reason the rest of your army is less good. Giving Eldar short-range D-weapons on Wraithguard is slightly balanced out by the expensiveness of the delivery mechanism (and by the relative ease of doing something about it), if they gave Space Marines infantry D-weapons the ability to plop them with zero risk anywhere on the table on turn one would make them horrendous and absurd.)