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Mulitlasers. Anything Wraith.

I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

...And...Eldar don't rely on a few broken units? Try using the 80% of the book that isn't Windriders, Wraithguard/Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Warp Spiders. You may find they get knocked out of the top tier rather quickly.

The top tier these days is entirely full of bad design decisions (Summoning + Pink Horrors + DP shenanigans, Riptides, full-heavy-weapon-density jetbike squads, grav-weapons, free Razorbacks...). The vast majority of the game doesn't work that way, but since GW refuses to review decisions once made tournament lists are stocked with their errors.

The average Eldar unit is considerably more competent than the average marine unit. 40K rewards specialization, not generalization. Eldar are reliant upon broken units, but not NEARLY as much as marines are on their few precious gimmicks. The marines are five or so rules away from being the BA.

Martel732 wrote:
The average Eldar unit is considerably more competent than the average marine unit. 40K rewards specialization, not generalization. Eldar are reliant upon broken units, but not NEARLY as much as marines are on their few precious gimmicks. The marines are five or so rules away from being the BA.

So you're telling me you'd rather have a 9ppm unit with T3, flak armour, and one heavy weapon per ten models over a 14ppm unit with T4, power armour, and one upgrade weapon per five models in Troops?

I know you love to heap s*** on your army but most of the Eldar Codex isn't that good.

Forget guardians. I'd rather have a dire avenger than a tac marine. Bladestorm is one of the few mechanics that MCs and GMCs can't just laugh off.

Striking scorpions are better than marines
Dark reapers are better than marines
Fire Dragons are better than marines
Wave serpent is a vehicle remotely worth its cost, so that's infinitely better than marines when they pay for their terrible vehicles
Fire prism is better than predators
Falcon is better than predators
Wraithlord is better than dreadnoughts because MCs OP compared to vehicles
Rangers are better than scouts
Farseers are better than librarians
Exarchs are better than sergeants
Warlocks are better than sergeants
War Walkers are better than any marine heavy support bar grav cents (marine heavy support is god awful outside grav cents, and even then, you have to make them invis to not die like little bitches)
Wraith guard are better than basically any marine unit without gimmicks

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

Show me a marine unit that's actually scary and cost effective outside their gimmicks. The Eldar book is full of them. BA, like gimmickless marines, have basically zero.

Martel732 wrote:
Forget guardians. I'd rather have a dire avenger than a tac marine. Bladestorm is one of the few mechanics that MCs and GMCs can't just laugh off.

Striking scorpions are better than marines
Dark reapers are better than marines
Fire Dragons are better than marines
Wave serpent is a vehicle remotely worth its cost, so that's infinitely better than marines when they pay for their terrible vehicles
Fire prism is better than predators
Falcon is better than predators
Wraithlord is better than dreadnoughts because MCs OP compared to vehicles
Rangers are better than scouts
Farseers are better than librarians
Exarchs are better than sergeants
Warlocks are better than sergeants
War Walkers are better than any marine heavy support bar grav cents (marine heavy support is god awful outside grav cents, and even then, you have to make them invis to not die like little bitches)
Wraith guard are better than basically any marine unit without gimmicks

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

Show me a marine unit that's actually scary and cost effective outside their gimmicks. The Eldar book is full of them. BA, like gimmickless marines, have basically zero.

now do price comparison with Marines, and maybe do a comparison with their equiv units are you are comparing a troop choice to mainly elite/fast/hvy choices

If you don't like space marines, maybe 40k isn't for you? Like no offense to the xenos players out there, I love ya, but Space marines ARE 40k.

GodDamUser wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Forget guardians. I'd rather have a dire avenger than a tac marine. Bladestorm is one of the few mechanics that MCs and GMCs can't just laugh off.

Striking scorpions are better than marines
Dark reapers are better than marines
Fire Dragons are better than marines
Wave serpent is a vehicle remotely worth its cost, so that's infinitely better than marines when they pay for their terrible vehicles
Fire prism is better than predators
Falcon is better than predators
Wraithlord is better than dreadnoughts because MCs OP compared to vehicles
Rangers are better than scouts
Farseers are better than librarians
Exarchs are better than sergeants
Warlocks are better than sergeants
War Walkers are better than any marine heavy support bar grav cents (marine heavy support is god awful outside grav cents, and even then, you have to make them invis to not die like little bitches)
Wraith guard are better than basically any marine unit without gimmicks

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

Show me a marine unit that's actually scary and cost effective outside their gimmicks. The Eldar book is full of them. BA, like gimmickless marines, have basically zero.

now do price comparison with Marines, and maybe do a comparison with their equiv units are you are comparing a troop choice to mainly elite/fast/hvy choices

When I say marines, I mean tac marines, vanguard, sternguards, assault marines, and devastators. Everything with a marine stat line. Those units are all mediocre to poor without some kind of gimmick to give them teeth. I know this, because that's exactly what I have to work with. The marines stat line is a liability in 7th because there's too many guns that kill them like grots and they are paying for stats they rarely get to use, and never get to use when scooped up with a cropier stick en masse.

And if you kept reading, I did compare unit to equivalent unit as best I could.

 Catfiish wrote:
If you don't like space marines, maybe 40k isn't for you? Like no offense to the xenos players out there, I love ya, but Space marines ARE 40k.

Orks vs Imperial Guard is 40k. Space Marines are just a flashy side show.

Marines are a meh army without slowed gimmicks.

Once you ignore bike stars, lib conclaves, bikes of all sorts and, gladius' then its meh, hardly top tier.

Eldar are top tier because literally everything is good, theres like what, two, maybe three units that are meh, nothing that is plain bad.

Tau are sorta monobuild, in the same way marines are. You aren't gonna win spamming firewarriors and pathfinders + tanks

your not gonna win with eldar spamming guardians either...

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Marines are a meh army without slowed gimmicks.

Once you ignore bike stars, lib conclaves, bikes of all sorts and, gladius' then its meh, hardly top tier.

Eldar are top tier because literally everything is good, theres like what, two, maybe three units that are meh, nothing that is plain bad.

Tau are sorta monobuild, in the same way marines are. You aren't gonna win spamming firewarriors and pathfinders + tanks

I think you should try Eldar, every unit in the codex, before saying something like that.
Interestingly enough, every person who has done that knows that Eldar have units that are worse than firewarriors in devilfishes.

 Catfiish wrote:
If you don't like space marines, maybe 40k isn't for you? Like no offense to the xenos players out there, I love ya, but Space marines ARE 40k.

Some people like to rewatch the same episode of their favourite show over and over and over and over again, others just want to not watch another rerun.

morgoth wrote:
I think you should try Eldar, every unit in the codex, before saying something like that.
Interestingly enough, every person who has done that knows that Eldar have units that are worse than firewarriors in devilfishes.

Guardians, banshees, and wraithlords stand out as particularly bad. Granted I usually nuke a wraithknight with something like a librarian shriek and plasma talons, but good old lascannons (or even *gasp* missile launchers) eat them up, and this is the one case snipers (read "trash unit" here) are above mediocre.

Also not amazing are avatar, hawks (from my experience against them), and spears (although only seen them twice).

 kingbobbito wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I think you should try Eldar, every unit in the codex, before saying something like that.
Interestingly enough, every person who has done that knows that Eldar have units that are worse than firewarriors in devilfishes.

Guardians, banshees, and wraithlords stand out as particularly bad. Granted I usually nuke a wraithknight with something like a librarian shriek and plasma talons, but good old lascannons (or even *gasp* missile launchers) eat them up, and this is the one case snipers (read "trash unit" here) are above mediocre.

Also not amazing are avatar, hawks (from my experience against them), and spears (although only seen them twice).

Spears are incredibly bad, rangers are terrible, fire prisms ... please.
Wraithblades = Terminators that suck way more than real Terminators.

morgoth wrote:
Spears are incredibly bad, rangers are terrible, fire prisms ... please.
Wraithblades = Terminators that suck way more than real Terminators.

I'm not overly familiar with rangers, do they have any rules that make them not just T3 scouts?

Melissia wrote:
Orks vs Imperial Guard is 40k. Space Marines are just a flashy side show.

That may be your opinion but almost nothing significant happens in the 40k setting without the involvement of Space Marines, and as the the posterboys for the setting, a considerable chunk of the narrative focuses on them.

n0t_u wrote:
Some people like to rewatch the same episode of their favourite show over and over and over and over again, others just want to not watch another rerun.

People can play whatever they want to play. If the playerbase lacks army variety, it's up to Gee Dubz to make the other factions more enticing.

 kingbobbito wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Spears are incredibly bad, rangers are terrible, fire prisms ... please.
Wraithblades = Terminators that suck way more than real Terminators.

I'm not overly familiar with rangers, do they have any rules that make them not just T3 scouts?

They also have S3, 5+ armor, no ATSKNF. (they do have shrouded which is their only saving grace)
Their rifles are 36" Heavy 1 AP6 useless.

They may not be the worst snipers in the game, but snipers these days...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

...And...Eldar don't rely on a few broken units? Try using the 80% of the book that isn't Windriders, Wraithguard/Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Warp Spiders. You may find they get knocked out of the top tier rather quickly.

The top tier these days is entirely full of bad design decisions (Summoning + Pink Horrors + DP shenanigans, Riptides, full-heavy-weapon-density jetbike squads, grav-weapons, free Razorbacks...). The vast majority of the game doesn't work that way, but since GW refuses to review decisions once made tournament lists are stocked with their errors.

Most of the Eldar codex is very good. The number of dud units is tiny (Howling banshees, storm guardians, and... that's it?) and even they got buffed.

In the top tier, you see less variety, but aforementioned CSM lists that give non-niche SM builds a smacking struggle vastly more against a balanced Eldar list.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

...And...Eldar don't rely on a few broken units? Try using the 80% of the book that isn't Windriders, Wraithguard/Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Warp Spiders. You may find they get knocked out of the top tier rather quickly.

The top tier these days is entirely full of bad design decisions (Summoning + Pink Horrors + DP shenanigans, Riptides, full-heavy-weapon-density jetbike squads, grav-weapons, free Razorbacks...). The vast majority of the game doesn't work that way, but since GW refuses to review decisions once made tournament lists are stocked with their errors.

Most of the Eldar codex is very good. The number of dud units is tiny (Howling banshees, storm guardians, and... that's it?) and even they got buffed.

In the top tier, you see less variety, but aforementioned CSM lists that give non-niche SM builds a smacking struggle vastly more against a balanced Eldar list.

Sad thing is I think the Howling Banshee's actually outperform some other codex assaults, think on that for a moment.

Their sheer speed, 4+ armor, power weapons and overwatch denial makes them surprisingly good, much better than they look outside of the top metas.

If you compare them to wyches the point should be clear.

Martel732 wrote:
Forget guardians. I'd rather have a dire avenger than a tac marine. Bladestorm is one of the few mechanics that MCs and GMCs can't just laugh off.

Striking scorpions are better than marines
Dark reapers are better than marines
Fire Dragons are better than marines
Wave serpent is a vehicle remotely worth its cost, so that's infinitely better than marines when they pay for their terrible vehicles
Fire prism is better than predators
Falcon is better than predators
Wraithlord is better than dreadnoughts because MCs OP compared to vehicles
Rangers are better than scouts
Farseers are better than librarians
Exarchs are better than sergeants
Warlocks are better than sergeants
War Walkers are better than any marine heavy support bar grav cents (marine heavy support is god awful outside grav cents, and even then, you have to make them invis to not die like little bitches)
Wraith guard are better than basically any marine unit without gimmicks

I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

Show me a marine unit that's actually scary and cost effective outside their gimmicks. The Eldar book is full of them. BA, like gimmickless marines, have basically zero.

There is one undercosted unit in the entire marine codex! A land speeder storm!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Spears are incredibly bad, rangers are terrible, fire prisms ... please.
Wraithblades = Terminators that suck way more than real Terminators.

I'm not overly familiar with rangers, do they have any rules that make them not just T3 scouts?

For the same cost as a scout with a sniper rifle- they have shrouded, fleet, and battle focus. This allows them to fire their rifles and move in the same turn. Don't get me wrong - they aren't great - but they are better than scouts. Lets also consider this - scouts are one of the BEST units in the space marine codex.

 nurgle5 wrote:
That may be your opinion but almost nothing significant happens in the 40k setting without the involvement of Space Marines

Not true at all. Almost everything significant happens without Space Marines. They're quite rare.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

...And...Eldar don't rely on a few broken units? Try using the 80% of the book that isn't Windriders, Wraithguard/Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Warp Spiders. You may find they get knocked out of the top tier rather quickly.

The top tier these days is entirely full of bad design decisions (Summoning + Pink Horrors + DP shenanigans, Riptides, full-heavy-weapon-density jetbike squads, grav-weapons, free Razorbacks...). The vast majority of the game doesn't work that way, but since GW refuses to review decisions once made tournament lists are stocked with their errors.

Most of the Eldar codex is very good. The number of dud units is tiny (Howling banshees, storm guardians, and... that's it?) and even they got buffed.

In the top tier, you see less variety, but aforementioned CSM lists that give non-niche SM builds a smacking struggle vastly more against a balanced Eldar list.

Sad thing is I think the Howling Banshee's actually outperform some other codex assaults, think on that for a moment.

They still suck absolute balls even compared to other CC units, including units which are considered not that great either.

Think on that for a moment.

You should really try them... they're so friggin awesome with their T3 and S3.

 nurgle5 wrote:

People can play whatever they want to play. If the playerbase lacks army variety, it's up to Gee Dubz to make the other factions more enticing.

If the player base lacks variety but GW already has provided many options for variety, then I think the remedy to the problem must come from the players actually. GW will emphasize whatever sells well that is what commercial enterprises must do to keep going. Vet players need to steer people especially newcomers away from SMs.

There are two approaches:

1) Boycott marines at games. "I've played against marines too many times, sorry chap I'll play against anything else". Suitable for the casual player who has a choice against who he plays. If it ever comes to pass that a marine player has literally no choice but to play against other marines all the time that may nudge some thinking towards taking up a new army that is anything but marine.

2) Tailor lists hard against marines even to the point where they are weak against non-marine lists. This will enable a good deal of wins because marines are as common as muck on the tabletop and it may get some marine players wondering if playing a common army is not a strategic weakness and look to take up something a bit anti-meta themselves. This is suitable for the competitive player who does not have the luxury of choosing his opponents very often.

morgoth wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

morgoth wrote:
Spears are incredibly bad, rangers are terrible, fire prisms ... please.
Wraithblades = Terminators that suck way more than real Terminators.

I'm not overly familiar with rangers, do they have any rules that make them not just T3 scouts?

They also have S3, 5+ armor, no ATSKNF. (they do have shrouded which is their only saving grace)
Their rifles are 36" Heavy 1 AP6 useless.

They may not be the worst snipers in the game, but snipers these days...

From about 30 entries in Codex: Craftworlds just under a half is problematic to use (sometimes beyond saving) and only six make reapeated appearance in netlists (not counting FW units here). From all of those, many aren't that good in TAC lilsts IF you play against various factions, but you don't have to worry about that, because meta IS all about Space Marines. Not only you are playing against Space Marines, but you are also playing against armies specialised in killing Space Marines. Eldar in the meta place so high mostly because they can easily tailor against predominantly SM meta and have three particularily broken units by the virtue of being totally universal and strong at the same time, so they can still win against anybody. My everyday group has no SM players at all, we are almost exclusively all xenos of different kinds (except for one AdMech) and most online tactics/lists suggestions/complaints are simpy non-applicable, because fearless hordes/whac-a-mole hordes/undying MSU/fast glass-cannon units are totally different beasts than MEQs. One of the most outstanding example of this bias is that Wraithguards against non-meta IoM-deathstar/IK/WK armies are almost ridiculously points inefficient and played-because-cool-factor type of unit.

One thing about SM players complaining about all strong xenos factions becomes quite clear after reading this thread, especially from this "90% of 100 players" example. It seems like most SM players lack any practical experience with xenos factions at all, they don't understand them, so when they loose to them, they automatically complain about them being entirely OP bullgak. What many of them miss, is that proficiency in 40K is not enemy faction (or even list) independent. If you have dozens of games worth of experience against various Space Marines armies and you feel good at 40K, then you might get very surprised when you lose to some rarely played armies you know absolutely nothing about. On the flip side, typical xenos player will almost exclusively play against iterations of your army, so will quite fast know everything about your weaknesses and how to exploit them.

They also typically don't understand non-Marine armies in general, not just Xeno armies.

Remember that thread a while back, where someone was asking "is it my responsibility to tell my oponent every single thing that my Sisters of Battle army can do, so there are zero surprises?" and such?

A lot of people literally were trying to argue that if you're not a Space Marine army you had an OBLIGATION to reveal all your strategies and tactics to your opponent because... prigilege and entitlement, really. Yeah.

morgoth wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, I can roll over weak marine lists and I play pure CSM.

Marines aren't like Eldar. They rely on a few broken niche units and formations to compete. Most of the Marine codex is flat out bad.

...And...Eldar don't rely on a few broken units? Try using the 80% of the book that isn't Windriders, Wraithguard/Wraithlords, War Walkers, and Warp Spiders. You may find they get knocked out of the top tier rather quickly.

The top tier these days is entirely full of bad design decisions (Summoning + Pink Horrors + DP shenanigans, Riptides, full-heavy-weapon-density jetbike squads, grav-weapons, free Razorbacks...). The vast majority of the game doesn't work that way, but since GW refuses to review decisions once made tournament lists are stocked with their errors.

Most of the Eldar codex is very good. The number of dud units is tiny (Howling banshees, storm guardians, and... that's it?) and even they got buffed.

In the top tier, you see less variety, but aforementioned CSM lists that give non-niche SM builds a smacking struggle vastly more against a balanced Eldar list.

Sad thing is I think the Howling Banshee's actually outperform some other codex assaults, think on that for a moment.

They still suck absolute balls even compared to other CC units, including units which are considered not that great either.

Think on that for a moment.

You should really try them... they're so friggin awesome with their T3 and S3.

The reason you don't see banshees is because their delivery method is pathetic. If they actually make CC they are cleaning up MEQ like it's their job...wait...that is their job. No overwatch, I5 power weapons for 13ppm. Plus a baller ass exarch with 3 str 5 ap2 attacks on the charge at I6 WS5. They add 3 to their charge distance too - which means they can charge 15 inches + they have fleet too. They are a great assault unit. Overshadowed by another great assault unit in the same FOC - Striking Scorpions. Eldar lacking an assault vehicle need another method to deliver assault units and scorpions do just fine without one. Scorpians wreck anything that isn't a souped up assault unit.

 Melissia wrote:
They also typically don't understand non-Marine armies in general, not just Xeno armies.

Remember that thread a while back, where someone was asking "is it my responsibility to tell my oponent every single thing that my Sisters of Battle army can do, so there are zero surprises?" and such?

A lot of people literally were trying to argue that if you're not a Space Marine army you had an OBLIGATION to reveal all your strategies and tactics to your opponent because... prigilege and entitlement, really. Yeah.

O wow, I missed that. Seriously?