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 mrhappyface wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

And who's arse did you pull that fact out of?

10 man Zerker unit
6 PF attacks -->3 dead
36 CA attacks -->17 dead
20 CS attacks --> 6 dead

So just over half the unit is dead on the charge.

Luckily I take 20 Zerkers because otherwise it wouldn't be much of a Zerker Horde and I usually whipe out the unit. Good right? However, you are now sat at the end of turn 2 or the start of turn 3 with all of your squishy cc units out in the open (after getting out of the Rhinos which are the only thing that prevented the units from being whiped turn 1) and combinations of Punishers, Heavy Bolters and Flamers will now whipe out close to 500pts of your army army after they killed a 150pt line of bubble wrap.

If a 10 man unit could whipe them out in a turn I definitely wouldn't be complaining.

So... you'd rather there not be a screen at all so your zerkers could wipe out (or prevent from ever participating) those Punishers, Heavy Bolters, and Flamers?

It sounds like you're honestly complaining that Guard have counterplay to Khorne Berzerkers that lets them fire their guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.

I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.

Killing 30 is fine. Presuming they have 4 strung back to invissisar back behind LOS blocking terrain, that leaves 16 alive - you have just punched a massive hole in their screen, wherever those casualties came from. Remember, the conscripts are the screen - as soon as you do enough casualties to punch a hole, you run through the breach.

You don't keep attacking a castle wall when you've already punched a hole in it for your troops to storm through.

16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.

Why not? Can the melee army not maneuver?

People keep criticizing Guard for not having to maneuver, and then when your screen is reduced (rather significantly) people complain about having to maneuver around it.

Yes, it will take more effort than just vaporizing the conscripts in one go... and I don't see a problem with that?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So... you'd rather there not be a screen at all so your zerkers could wipe out (or prevent from ever participating) those Punishers, Heavy Bolters, and Flamers?

It sounds like you're honestly complaining that Guard have counterplay to Khorne Berzerkers that lets them fire their guns.

Sorry, but that was such a dense answer to my post. I literally said I wouldn't mind the trade off of 10 Zerkers for 50 conscripts (even though that is 200+pts for 150pts) because I know cc armies have to make sacrifices to make it to a gunline.

What I'm complaining about is that Guard have a counterplay to cc armies that let them shut down any attempt to even touch their gunline and mean they don't have to move or really use any skill.

(I've played against Guard armies in 8th that didn't have conscript screaning and they were for more fun engaging games as my opponant split his forces and repositioned as I crashed into his gunline. He would try things like splitting my forces, stranding my characters and purposely ramming my forces to prevent my cc units from advancing any further. Those were much closer and much more fun games to play.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why not? Can the melee army not maneuver?

People keep criticizing Guard for not having to maneuver, and then when your screen is reduced (rather significantly) people complain about having to maneuver around it.

Yes, it will take more effort than just vaporizing the conscripts in one go... and I don't see a problem with that?

Deathy is saying that they literally can't manouver round it because 16 conscripts spaced out is more than enough to screan cc armies from getting around them, so it will take another turn of combat (with less models now that they've weathered a round of shooting, that 10 man Zerker unit becomes more like a 3 man unit) to get past the conscripts to the gunline.

 Deathypoo wrote:

16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.

16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.

As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So... you'd rather there not be a screen at all so your zerkers could wipe out (or prevent from ever participating) those Punishers, Heavy Bolters, and Flamers?

It sounds like you're honestly complaining that Guard have counterplay to Khorne Berzerkers that lets them fire their guns.

Sorry, but that was such a dense answer to my post. I literally said I wouldn't mind the trade off of 10 Zerkers for 50 conscripts (even though that is 200+pts for 150pts) because I know cc armies have to make sacrifices to make it to a gunline.

What I'm complaining about is that Guard have a counterplay to cc armies that let them shut down any attempt to even touch their gunline and mean they don't have to move or really use any skill.

(I've played against Guard armies in 8th that didn't have conscript screaning and they were for more fun engaging games as my opponant split his forces and repositioned as I crashed into his gunline. He would try things like splitting my forces, stranding my characters and purposely ramming my forces to prevent my cc units from advancing any further. Those were much closer and much more fun games to play.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why not? Can the melee army not maneuver?

People keep criticizing Guard for not having to maneuver, and then when your screen is reduced (rather significantly) people complain about having to maneuver around it.

Yes, it will take more effort than just vaporizing the conscripts in one go... and I don't see a problem with that?

Deathy is saying that they literally can't manouver round it because 16 conscripts spaced out is more than enough to screan cc armies from getting around them, so it will take another turn of combat (with less models now that they've weathered a round of shooting, that 10 man Zerker unit becomes more like a 3 man unit) to get past the conscripts to the gunline.

Did you beat those IG in those 'engaging' games? Because 'repositioning his forces' is a far far less efficient use of IG firepower. They really aren't a mobile army, not like Tau. Sometimes what is an 'engaging' game for you is an exercise in futility for an opponent.

16 conscripts is absolutely not enough to keep CC armies from getting around them, after one fall-back move. They've got so much space between them that a charging unit can charge right between them and hit the tanks behind - heck, maybe catch the conscripts in it too if you really wanna get a few extra baps in for having the audacity to last more than a turn.

Martel732 wrote:
You're making stuff up. I merely stated that the IG had efficient units in addition to the conscripts. Which is absolutely true. I think that marines have one unit to match that was nerfed FOR A GOOD REASON. No one wants to play against 5 stormravens.

Well yes, we have.... What do we have now? In all honestly we have Infantry units which are okay and Storm Troopers. And Tauroxes recieved even more buffs (because noone ever wants to use them) And HWT. And a few other bits. In all honestly the codex has been turned on its head.

IG players are truly the new Tau players.

What, when did we gain godlike manoeuvrability and masses of long ranged firepower that could be buffed army wide? Please do tell me Martel, I really want to use these units!

7th ed Tau: "It's fine that it takes 40 lascannons to kill a Riptide!. We NEED that. If we didn't we might actually lose a game to IG or BA!"

Plus markerlights, stormsurges, battlesuits, stealth cadre formations..... The list goes on.

8th ed IG: "Conscripts for 3 pts are FINE! We NEED that, or we might actually have to move and not be able to win every game by tabling the opponent!"

Well, how are conscripts tabling people? They have an average range, average T, low armour save, low accuracy, are slow and forced to footslog, cannot be transported, etc. If they are giving you that much trouble then try shooting them from beyond their range. Or just ignoring them and going for the objectives. Or locking them in CC and chasing them up to distract them whilst you go for the objectives. Or you know, just thinking instead of crying "waaa OP". But it is okay Martel. After all, Leman Russ where overpowered in 7th right?

MoO is notoriously terrible at running his own list in 6th/7th, even as far as denying the efficacy of divination for IG in those editions.

Wait, was that the "bring 50 man blobs with a priest, commissar, psyker and five Las/autocannon teams and five plasmaguns" list? The one which relied on your overpriced psyker getting both Invisibility and that reroll failed to hits spell to function? the one with the big congaline to the heavy weapons so they could shoot? Yes, that one which typically lost two plasmaguns on its first volley, and one every subsequent shooting phase? Yes, that one which cost more than a Baneblade, had to footslog and required such luck with the dice that it led to you being laughed out of the threads several times, with far more experienced guard players such as myself including those whom had tried it and said it did not work?
That one Martel? Because it was a terrible idea back then and it still is.

Now, he's put on the 7th ed Tau cloak. "Nothing to see here, everything is working as intended; move along".

Well I will be fair, there is something to see. Salty butthurt SM Eldar and Tau players crying as their Sue grade special snowflake armies suddenly find themselves no longer able to march over Guard armies in a couple of turns. said players suffering horrific mental trauma as they suddenly have to think instead of pressing their "Iwin" button and struggling to cope with the concept of "tactics".

Seriously?

Looks like it

Enjoy your autowin button, bro.

Thanks, but I dont run Conscripts. They never fit the theme of my army and to be honest I have neither the time nor the patience to paint that many models for the sake of a dull tactic that will invariably be rendered obsolete once players stop crying and start thinking.

I didn't think I could lose any more respect for you, but there it is.

Thanks, I do my best
In all seriousness martel, I do not really care. You frequently butt into Guard threads with this idea that we are somehow overpowered, etc. I do not know what your local meta is like but from what you have been saying over the past few years I can gather that you are either slightly behind on it, or that the Guard players in your area enjoy fudging things a little bit. I mean no offence in this, we all have those dodgy players and as a Guard player myself it was sometimes hard to avoid the temptation to sneak an extra unit or "forget" or "remember" something during those dark years, and I am pretty sure that there are those that where not as strong willed as myself.
Try looking at your army and how it plays and then looking at the opposition. Remember that for the Conscripts to work they all have to be within 12" of their target, and to get there either you have to go to them or they have to come to you. Weaken them before they get there and remember that they are slow. Weaken them and then, when you are ready, go for the throat and charge. Bring snipers or barrages to deal with commissars. Use flamers and anti infantry weapons instead of anti MEQ weapons.
Just please stop complaining about Guard armies though. you have been going on about us for years and I am honestly fed up with it.

It takes 169 bolter shots to take down a 50man blob. There is no way to speed this up because of the commissar. This is to remove 150 pts. No one has that many bolter shots to spare. Most lists won't even GET 169 bolter shots in a game.

Then bring a few blobs of marines with some anti-infantry support.

sossen wrote:

The cost of the support is already included in the 180-200 pts. If you want to get support for the razorbacks you will have to include the cost in the comparison. And while it is possible to use as a transport, a razorback needs to be immobile to get those numbers. You can cut their numbers by 1/4 if they want to move, unlike the conscripts. The razorback is completely useless in melee and typically gets locked in an endless cycle of falling back, the conscripts can fall back and shoot at essentially full capacity. The razorbacks are hardly "significantly tougher" either, they can be wiped with much higher efficiency than any answer to conscripts will have. So razorbacks are bought to act as gun platforms in every matchup while the conscripts can fulfill a multitude of roles and are at their worst when you only want to use them as firepower, as I explained in the post that you quoted. And yet 50 conscripts are equal to two razorbacks when it comes to killing GEQ

So, in other words a 200 point selection consisting of a bunch of bods with support is slightly less efficient than 200 points of transport at killing things? I am sorry but I am really not seeing the problem here as a 200 point selection that is far tougher than the conscripts, faster AND can transport units AND is better against heavier targets is still slightly better at killing things than the conscripts at the slight cost of not being as capable in close combat. And if it does end up in close combat then you can just deploy the troops from within.
Hell, the only thing that they have any real weakness too are the dedicated anti-heavy weapons which are so popular these days (and ironically the things that make blobs like Conscripts so good).

Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.

And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead. Also, you are looking at kill-per-points. Stop it.

Can you explain how this is supposed to work? How are they going to get to the commissar before the conscripts are dead?

Yes. You either:
A) Use a sniper weapon
B) catch the command unit giving the orders or the commissar out in the open or
C) use barrage weapons which (based off my understanding) do no have to shoot the closest unit when they fire

pismakron wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.

16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.

As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.

Exactly this. Any screen wide enough to cover a gunline behind it will have a >25mm gap between conscripts that you can charge through to prevent the stuff behind from firing. Alternatively you can pile in and consolidate through them as well, if a fight elsewhere in the line of conscripts makes him remove the casualties around the unit that charged.

It's really not as one-sided as you are making it out to be once you've hit the screen literally once with 10 zerkers. With 20 they're just gone.

Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.

Like Riptide and WK of last edition, they are too cheap and allow too much other stuff in the list.

Martel732 wrote:
Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.

Why? You should be always going first, and with deep-striking units should be able to get a good amount of durable units down and in their face Turn 1. Drop 3 units and you're bound to get one successful charge off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.

Like Riptide and WK of last edition, they are too cheap and allow too much other stuff in the list.

The issue with making them more expensive is they're not the same as guardsmen PPM, so the guardsmen have to go up, then the veterans have to go up, and the heavy weapons teams, and the scions, and the special weapons teams, and the command squads...

No, nobody without flying/hover/equivelent can maneuver around a 3' wall in a reasonable amount of time.

 Deathypoo wrote:
No, nobody without flying/hover/equivelent can maneuver around a 3' wall in a reasonable amount of time.

They can punch right through it though. That's 2" between conscripts. That means even a 40mm base can charge right through this 'screen' as if it wasn't there.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.

16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.

As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.

Exactly this. Any screen wide enough to cover a gunline behind it will have a >25mm gap between conscripts that you can charge through to prevent the stuff behind from firing. Alternatively you can pile in and consolidate through them as well, if a fight elsewhere in the line of conscripts makes him remove the casualties around the unit that charged.

It's really not as one-sided as you are making it out to be once you've hit the screen literally once with 10 zerkers. With 20 they're just gone.

You really cannot consolidate through a screen, and now I think of it I think bezerkers comes on 32 mm bases making screening against them easier than against boyz or gaunts. Regards

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.

Why? You should be always going first, and with deep-striking units should be able to get a good amount of durable units down and in their face Turn 1. Drop 3 units and you're bound to get one successful charge off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.

Like Riptide and WK of last edition, they are too cheap and allow too much other stuff in the list.

The issue with making them more expensive is they're not the same as guardsmen PPM, so the guardsmen have to go up, then the veterans have to go up, and the heavy weapons teams, and the scions, and the special weapons teams, and the command squads...

"


You need a lot more than one charge to do anything in 8th ed. Being in the face of guard is right where they want you. BA (and marines) can't shoot well enough and assault well enough simultaneously to compete with the wounds IG puts in the table.

pismakron wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.

16 conscripts can form a screen of about 30 inches length under ideal conditions. And I have seen them deployed like that quite, even though it severely diminishes their overwatch. But if there is a single gap of more than 25 mm you can assault right through the screen and Pile In into the tanks behind it. This definately works.

As an ork player I probably don't struggle as much with conscripts as, says, Chaos or nids, but I still think that orders are overpowered when they can be given to a fifty man unit. Without the orders I think conscripts would be fine.

Exactly this. Any screen wide enough to cover a gunline behind it will have a >25mm gap between conscripts that you can charge through to prevent the stuff behind from firing. Alternatively you can pile in and consolidate through them as well, if a fight elsewhere in the line of conscripts makes him remove the casualties around the unit that charged.

It's really not as one-sided as you are making it out to be once you've hit the screen literally once with 10 zerkers. With 20 they're just gone.

You really cannot consolidate through a screen, and now I think of it I think bezerkers comes on 32 mm bases making screening against them easier than against boyz or gaunts. Regards

You can depending on how the opponent removes casualties. If the conscripts are now further away than the tank, you can pile in and consolidate and move 6" closer to the tank. If the conscripts were removed from around the unit originally in combat with them, then they can consolidate towards the nearest tank.

It's not like you're removing 2 or 3 conscripts at a time. you're removing like 10. Those casualties come from somewhere, and as soon as 1 tank is closer to one bad-guy model, that model can consolidate closer to the tank. We're talking about turn 2 here, so either the conscripts are going to be concentrated enough to go around, or spread out enough that removing 3 or 4 has the potential to release a unit from combat with them that can move on later in the fight phase.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Did you beat those IG in those 'engaging' games? Because 'repositioning his forces' is a far far less efficient use of IG firepower. They really aren't a mobile army, not like Tau. Sometimes what is an 'engaging' game for you is an exercise in futility for an opponent.

16 conscripts is absolutely not enough to keep CC armies from getting around them, after one fall-back move. They've got so much space between them that a charging unit can charge right between them and hit the tanks behind - heck, maybe catch the conscripts in it too if you really wanna get a few extra baps in for having the audacity to last more than a turn.

I won some of them yes, I also drew and lost some. In all of those games though the winner only won by 1 or 2 points. My opponants were almost always dealing damage to me and they certainly seemed to be having fun whenever they downed my Knight or killed off a final Zerker in overwatch or if I did manage to kill a tank and it blew up in my face.

As for the 16 conscripts, there is spacing enough there for Zerkers to get through but the original 10 man Zerker unit is probably dead from being sat in the open for a turn and there's about a 50:50 chance that the other Zerker unit has had their Rhino popped and a few of them killed. Then how many do you think will survive overwatch vs the conscripts and tanks? The only reason Zerkers can reliably survive overwatch vs shooty armies is by sending the Rhinos in first. I know this sounds like whining but fighting conscript screened armies with a cc army is futile. Please Unit, you take a Khorne army versus a competitive Imperial Guard army with a 50 man conscript screen and tell me how easy it is to get past the conscripts.

 Deathypoo wrote:
No, nobody without flying/hover/equivelent can maneuver around a 3' wall in a reasonable amount of time.

If you stretch the screen to the limits of unit coherency, then assault units can just declare a charge against the screening unit, and then charge right through the screen. What is more, you only need to place a single charging model in CC with the screening unit, the remainder can charge the at the tanks behind the screen, if such a charge was declared, or they can just move close to the tanks (1.1 inch or so), and then pile into the tanks. If you do the latter, then you cannot hit them in the fight phase, but they will still be engaged in CC and they don't get to fire overwatch. What is more, if the defender was dumb enough to place his tanks back against the table edge or impassable terrain, then he cannot even fall back. At this point the assaulting player should perform a little dance routine, just to lighten the tension of the game.

The "melee" versus "ranged" meta game exists in so many table top /video games/ RPG systems.

1. Melee needs a credible way to get close and engage ranged
2. Ranged needs a credible way to avoid melee and remain at distance

If those two things aren't balanced, you have a totally one sided game, which isn't good.

Right now, melee does not have a credible way to get close and engage Imperial Guard in a meaningful way.

I'm going to suggest that if you play guard, and you are at all struggling, consider:

1. Conscripts are cheap. Yes, you will need to own a lot of them, but 150 conscripts is more than enough, for 450 points, to negate every single assault army without difficulty. They have no counter play to this wall.

2. Manticores, Wyverns are cheap. Bring them. You don't need to worry about moving your gunline, because it will be shielded by the conscripts, and these incredibly strong tanks force the opponent to bring the fight to you. At 2000 points you can bring enough of these to realistically table anyone, other than Guard, in 5 turns.

3. You have other cheap, undercosted options to add in, depending on what your local meta involves. Additionally, you have very cheap 8 toughness tanks that can deal wicked damage.

4. Any balanced list should have some reserves, you can do this with very cheap plasma, cheaper than anyone else, and it will cut through equally costed units like a hot knife through butter. Scions are you friend.

Congratulations, you just won basically all of your games.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Did you beat those IG in those 'engaging' games? Because 'repositioning his forces' is a far far less efficient use of IG firepower. They really aren't a mobile army, not like Tau. Sometimes what is an 'engaging' game for you is an exercise in futility for an opponent.

16 conscripts is absolutely not enough to keep CC armies from getting around them, after one fall-back move. They've got so much space between them that a charging unit can charge right between them and hit the tanks behind - heck, maybe catch the conscripts in it too if you really wanna get a few extra baps in for having the audacity to last more than a turn.

I won some of them yes, I also drew and lost some. In all of those games though the winner only won by 1 or 2 points. My opponants were almost always dealing damage to me and they certainly seemed to be having fun whenever they downed my Knight or killed off a final Zerker in overwatch or if I did manage to kill a tank and it blew up in my face.

As for the 16 conscripts, there is spacing enough there for Zerkers to get through but the original 10 man Zerker unit is probably dead from being sat in the open for a turn and there's about a 50:50 chance that the other Zerker unit has had their Rhino popped and a few of them killed. Then how many do you think will survive overwatch vs the conscripts and tanks? The only reason Zerkers can reliably survive overwatch vs shooty armies is by sending the Rhinos in first. I know this sounds like whining but fighting conscript screened armies with a cc army is futile. Please Unit, you take a Khorne army versus a competitive Imperial Guard army with a 50 man conscript screen and tell me how easy it is to get past the conscripts.

Have you tried taking some raptors? I know that stormboyz can help boyblobs both as a mobile screen against other CC armies, but also as a way to bypass infantry screens. Allthough I agree that conscripts can be frustrating. Regards

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Half my army is dead before I get within range of even thinking about conscripts. That's the other side of the equation here.

Why? You should be always going first, and with deep-striking units should be able to get a good amount of durable units down and in their face Turn 1. Drop 3 units and you're bound to get one successful charge off.

And they charge... what? The conscripts? Oh whup tee doo, my Terminators/Raptors are now in combat with the conscripts. The Guard player will play it smart and hold the deep striking units in cc whilst obliterating the rest of the cc army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
Have you tried taking some raptors? I know that stormboyz can help boyblobs both as a mobile screen against other CC armies, but also as a way to bypass infantry screens. Allthough I agree that conscripts can be frustrating. Regards

The problem there is that you have: turn 1 they come down and likely get killed to a man and do no damage because their weapons aren't in rapid fire/melta range, turn 2 (if some are still alive) they'll jump over the conscripts, do a pitiful amount of damage, hold one thing up in cc and die to a Comissars bolt pistol. Raptors are great if they can get in range but conscript screens deny them the range they need.

 Marmatag wrote:
3. You have other cheap, undercosted options to add in, depending on what your local meta involves. Additionally, you have very cheap 8 toughness tanks that can deal wicked damage.

The taurox prime deserves mention, given it is actually better than the ever popular razorback as far as firepower for cost goes while still being remarkably durable. The only thing they can't do si taking down T:8 models. Otherwise, they have some solid options.

As I am feeling lazy I shall sum up this thread as thus:

SM/Eldar/Tau/Knight/Necron players:


Imperial Guard players:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am sorry but I am really not seeing the problem here as a 200 point selection that is far tougher than the conscripts [...]

It is not tougher - because it is a viable target for lascannons and the like you can kill razorbacks efficiently with the appropriate weapons. Multi-wound tanks are not as tough as they look because of the discount on multi-damage weapons. Plasma scion command squads can make their points back in one turn by firing at twin AC razorbacks. Conscripts on the other hand have no efficient counters.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.

And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead.

By all means, tell us what anti-infantry weapons SM players are supposed to bring to beat conscripts.

 master of ordinance wrote:
As I am feeling lazy I shall sum up this thread as thus:

SM/Eldar/Tau/Knight/Necron players:


Imperial Guard players:

Unlike your incessant complaining about non-gladius drop pods in 7th, we've actually got math to back up our claims.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sossen wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am sorry but I am really not seeing the problem here as a 200 point selection that is far tougher than the conscripts [...]

It is not tougher - because it is a viable target for lascannons and the like you can kill razorbacks efficiently with the appropriate weapons. Multi-wound tanks are not as tough as they look because of the discount on multi-damage weapons. Plasma scion command squads can make their points back in one turn by firing at twin AC razorbacks. Conscripts on the other hand have no efficient counters.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.

And Conscripts are any better? Well, as you yourself just pointed out no they are not. Your Assault cannon is a hybrid anti-infantry/anti-light vehicle weapon for the most part. Yes it has a good rate of fire but you are paying for that, so try bringing anti-infantry weapons instead.

By all means, tell us what anti-infantry weapons SM players are supposed to bring to beat conscripts.

He doesn't know, because he probably still doesn't understand how the game works. Just like in 7th.

Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.

Lascannon HWS are in an awkward spot when you want to talk about "point efficiency". See, a rule of thumb for most guard players is "never put lascannons in a HWS". Why? Because now you've got three 24 point models with just 2 T3/5+ wounds, no padding, and no character protection from shooting. Can you say "autocannon bait"?

They could theoretically make for a good first-turn alpha strike I suppose, if Guard ever got first turn.

Realistically speaking, the cheapest thing those lascannons will ever be mounted on is a Sentinel for a total of 55 points. You need a minimum of two to kill the Rhino, so that's 110 points to kill a 70 point Rhino. If they both hit with their BS4+. And if they both roll well on their damage.

A Vendetta would technically be more efficient than sentinels overall, as it technically has an effective cost of 38.3 points per lascannon fielded. But it achieves this by boating, you can't take fractions of a Vendetta so you're looking at 230 points to kill the 70 point Rhino. Though as long as the Vendetta hovers (to avoid getting bumped down to 5+) that Rhino probably is very dead.

So yeah, even against lascannons, Rhinos are actually pretty good wound sponges.

Rhinos are fine wound sponges. Conscripts are just much, much better.

Martel732 wrote:

Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.

It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.

"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.

It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.

"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."

Please don't generalize to all Guard players. I've admitted more than once (this might be the fourth or fifth time now) that I, too, agree that IG is overperforming in 8th.

I simply do not believe that conscripts are the root of the problem.

Like most problems in this game, it has more than one facet. It's not JUST conscripts, it's conscripts PLUS other efficient units. WKs w/o scatterbikes and warp spiders would not have been the WKs we knew and hated. Conscripts are A problem. I think another problem is that T3 and 5+ armor got a LOT better and the IG doesn't pay for it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.

It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.

"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."

Please don't generalize to all Guard players. I've admitted more than once (this might be the fourth or fifth time now) that I, too, agree that IG is overperforming in 8th.

I simply do not believe that conscripts are the root of the problem.

I enjoy discussing things with you. I also appreciate your candor even if we disagree. My generalization was not fair and doesn't apply to everyone, especially you.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Nothing worse than a gloating winner. This would be like me crowing about my 22-1 record in 3rd ed with BA.

It is funny reading the "dakka results" thread where the guard / astra millitarium players are bragging about their 30-0 records.

"It has nothing to do with the army it is my player skill. In other news, my farts smell fantastic."

Please don't generalize to all Guard players. I've admitted more than once (this might be the fourth or fifth time now) that I, too, agree that IG is overperforming in 8th.

I simply do not believe that conscripts are the root of the problem.

Yeah, I don't see you posting MoO-style posts NOR exalting them.

It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts, it takes about 3x the cost of anti-tank shooting for most things to remove Rhinos.

I'd say they're fairly same-ish in their ability to absorb shooting. Not identical, Rhinos have a smaller board footprint so they can't cover the whole board as easily. They also block LoS to things behind them, which can both be good (protects that thing from enemy shooting) and bad (it blocks LoS going the other way too) depending on the situation. Anti-tank weapons are also generally at a premium though, and there's usually much more valuable things on the board that they'd rather be shooting.

Rhinos are also naturally immune to morale, by virtue of being single-model units, and they can actually recover wounds if you take more than one turn to kill them (1/6 chance of 1 wound isn't much, but it's more than Conscripts can do).

They don't have as much firepower unless you pay to upgrade them to Razorbacks, and even then they're hard to compare because Razorbacks are mostly anti-tank and Conscripts are anti-infantry.

But in terms of wound sponging, they're pretty comparable.