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2017/07/27 13:45:15
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I know, what a crazy idea.
Can you really not see how ridiculous it is for one side to start down the line of 'conscripts are silly when you have 200 of them', then as soon as that line starts to look shaky they drop it back down to 50 conscripts?
His point when he said that 50 conscripts can still block the back line was that even after you kill 150 of them, using most of your army over most of the game, you still can't get to the juicy targets in the back line that are meanwhile happily ripping apart your army from behind their screen. It's not moving goalposts it's just an ongoing discussion.
2017/07/27 13:48:54
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
2017/07/27 13:49:00
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
They are far too numerous and therefore hard to kill, despite both being more expensive and less durable than Brimstone Horrors.
I don't think anyone thinks that brimstone horrors are balanced either, but their statline is so ludicrous that I'm not particularly worried about their eventual nerf.
2017/07/27 13:52:59
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
sossen wrote:
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
Colonel Cross wrote:People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones.
Ah, now that requires certain players to admit that they are not being massively shafted and that IG are not the be all and end all of cheesemongering, timmy tier, power gaming overpoweredness. And they will not, because even during the dark days of 6th and 7th we had these self same players telling us that the Imperial Guard where still competitive, that Leman Russ where fair and if anything too powerful, and that we where just whining about nothing.
Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
Pretty much this. Everyone wants to bring and expects to see "cool" units instead of faceless infantry hordes. Faceless blobs scare the hell out of these self same players because their tiny group of mary sue level characters are suddenly stuck in a situation that they are not prepared for. Have you ever taken a group of high level characters in an RPG and thrown a couple of waves of weak mooks at them, such as Goblins? Initially they laugh and boast about how easy things are going to be, but things swiftly change and soon they are crying about how overpowered goblins of skeletons are, and how you are a bad DM for using them.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Martel732 wrote:
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating.
And finally:
Please guys. It is "Imperial Guard", not "Astra Miliwhatsits"
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2017/07/27 13:53:17
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
What do you expect people to do when you make a post like that?
Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I know, what a crazy idea.
Can you really not see how ridiculous it is for one side to start down the line of 'conscripts are silly when you have 200 of them', then as soon as that line starts to look shaky they drop it back down to 50 conscripts?
It isn't moving the Goalposts, some people have complaints about spamming 200 conscripts to cover the board with and some people have complaints about 50 man units being used as bubble wrap. Two different arguements and both with good points to make.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2017/07/27 13:54:15
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
They are a very durable unit that is appropriately costed for their durability in editions that had blast templates, but are probably just a little too durable (with commissars preventing morale losses) in an edition without templates. More importantly, because they can be taken in units of 50 the effect of single-unit buffs like orders and searchlights are disproportionately effective for them, giving them extremely efficient offensive power as well. Being very efficient at offense and extremely efficient at defense makes them arguably the best per-point unit in the game. By a lot.
2017/07/27 13:54:38
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
I agree, taking 200 conscripts if your gunline is going to be tanks is not a good idea at 1500 points. For an army like that it would probably be better to bring a bunch of astra telepathica psykers instead.
2017/07/27 13:57:27
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2017/07/27 13:58:51
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Don't nerf Commissars too heavily, because then Inquisitors will become the meta.
Honestly I'm surprised Guard players don't use Inquisitors more than Lord Commissars; we're hurting for HQ choices without just spamming the same 2 or 3, and they're exactly the same price as a Lord Commissar with a power weapon but are psykers, can still embark in transports, and one of their psychic powers allows a unit to auto-pass morale checks without even suffering the 1 loss from Summary Execution.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
I'm sorry your mono-build unsupported CC army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers and nothing else can no longer faceroll the Imperial Guard.
ADDITIONAL EDIT:
Every single CC army I know has had a way to crack open tanks with shooting because in 6th and 7th, hiding in transports was a good way to get a free shooting phase at the enemy unit that charged the transport and not the contents. So if you have literally 0 antitank shooting, I don't really know what to say?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:01:00
2017/07/27 14:05:59
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
sossen wrote:
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
Colonel Cross wrote:People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones.
Ah, now that requires certain players to admit that they are not being massively shafted and that IG are not the be all and end all of cheesemongering, timmy tier, power gaming overpoweredness. And they will not, because even during the dark days of 6th and 7th we had these self same players telling us that the Imperial Guard where still competitive, that Leman Russ where fair and if anything too powerful, and that we where just whining about nothing.
Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
Pretty much this. Everyone wants to bring and expects to see "cool" units instead of faceless infantry hordes. Faceless blobs scare the hell out of these self same players because their tiny group of mary sue level characters are suddenly stuck in a situation that they are not prepared for. Have you ever taken a group of high level characters in an RPG and thrown a couple of waves of weak mooks at them, such as Goblins? Initially they laugh and boast about how easy things are going to be, but things swiftly change and soon they are crying about how overpowered goblins of skeletons are, and how you are a bad DM for using them.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Martel732 wrote:
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating.
And finally:
Please guys. It is "Imperial Guard", not "Astra Miliwhatsits"
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2017/07/27 14:14:58
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2017/07/27 14:20:30
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2017/07/27 14:23:40
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
Chaos has no snipers, and deepstrike won't allow you to kill a commissar surrounded by conscripts.
2017/07/27 14:26:43
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
sossen wrote:They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
The cost of the support is already included in the 180-200 pts. If you want to get support for the razorbacks you will have to include the cost in the comparison. And while it is possible to use as a transport, a razorback needs to be immobile to get those numbers. You can cut their numbers by 1/4 if they want to move, unlike the conscripts. The razorback is completely useless in melee and typically gets locked in an endless cycle of falling back, the conscripts can fall back and shoot at essentially full capacity. The razorbacks are hardly "significantly tougher" either, they can be wiped with much higher efficiency than any answer to conscripts will have. So razorbacks are bought to act as gun platforms in every matchup while the conscripts can fulfill a multitude of roles and are at their worst when you only want to use them as firepower, as I explained in the post that you quoted. And yet 50 conscripts are equal to two razorbacks when it comes to killing GEQ.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
Assault cannons are still a bad deal when it comes to killing conscripts. 100 points for a razorback with twin AC is killing 20 pts worth of conscripts per turn. For reference the same razorback can kill 30 pts worth of ork boyz or 48 pts worth of space marines. It's simply not efficient enough vs conscripts to be feasible.
master of ordinance wrote: Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Can you explain how this is supposed to work? How are they going to get to the commissar before the conscripts are dead?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:35:12
2017/07/27 14:27:02
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
sossen wrote:
They are capable of killing any targets with T5 and below quite efficiently. 50 of them with FRFSRF can kill 9-10 ork boyz outside of rapid fire range. That's pretty good for a unit that only costs about 180-200 pts including support. For reference two twin AC razorbacks (200 pts) are killing 10-11 ork boyz. When judging their melee stats you have to take into account the effect of the order that allows them to fall back and shoot as well.
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem here - a unit that costs 180 - 200 points is, with support, capable of averaging 1 less kill per volley than a pair of significantly tougher units that together cost 200 points and is a transport can do without support. If anything this is actually proving counter to the arguement as it is showing that conscripts are slightly underperforming to a similarly priced selection from another faction.
Colonel Cross wrote:People place way too much emphasis on the math of things in this game. You wanna cry about math? Look at the comparison of capabilities vs cost of SM flyers vs IG ones.
Ah, now that requires certain players to admit that they are not being massively shafted and that IG are not the be all and end all of cheesemongering, timmy tier, power gaming overpoweredness. And they will not, because even during the dark days of 6th and 7th we had these self same players telling us that the Imperial Guard where still competitive, that Leman Russ where fair and if anything too powerful, and that we where just whining about nothing.
Everyone complaining about conscripts are doing so because they have lists designed for "cool" alpha strikes or taking out flyer spam or knights. Then that list meets a horde list and is hopefully unprepared.
Pretty much this. Everyone wants to bring and expects to see "cool" units instead of faceless infantry hordes. Faceless blobs scare the hell out of these self same players because their tiny group of mary sue level characters are suddenly stuck in a situation that they are not prepared for. Have you ever taken a group of high level characters in an RPG and thrown a couple of waves of weak mooks at them, such as Goblins? Initially they laugh and boast about how easy things are going to be, but things swiftly change and soon they are crying about how overpowered goblins of skeletons are, and how you are a bad DM for using them.
You don't like conscripts? Take freaking troops to deal with them. Assault cannons are absolute death. You know what isn't the answer? Small, elite, hard hitting units which became the norm in 7th edition.
This again. I just cannot agree with you more good sir as you are pretty much hitting the nail on the head time and again.
As far as I'm concerned the only folks who should be able to complain are players with armies who lack snipers. And guess what? Most of those armies are capable of deleting 50 conscripts easily ie: Tyranids, orks, and necrons.
Or a dedicated character hunting deep strike unit to kill the Commanders/Commissars.
Martel732 wrote:
The menagerie of dead last tourney results say otherwise. Try using some factual arguments.
Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating.
And finally:
Please guys. It is "Imperial Guard", not "Astra Miliwhatsits"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:27:24
You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!
*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs.
2017/07/27 14:29:36
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Don't nerf Commissars too heavily, because then Inquisitors will become the meta.
Honestly I'm surprised Guard players don't use Inquisitors more than Lord Commissars; we're hurting for HQ choices without just spamming the same 2 or 3, and they're exactly the same price as a Lord Commissar with a power weapon but are psykers, can still embark in transports, and one of their psychic powers allows a unit to auto-pass morale checks without even suffering the 1 loss from Summary Execution.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
I'm sorry your mono-build unsupported CC army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers and nothing else can no longer faceroll the Imperial Guard.
ADDITIONAL EDIT:
Every single CC army I know has had a way to crack open tanks with shooting because in 6th and 7th, hiding in transports was a good way to get a free shooting phase at the enemy unit that charged the transport and not the contents. So if you have literally 0 antitank shooting, I don't really know what to say?
Of note, armies like orks lack very few good ranged anti-tank options, and so rely on CC to do that work. What they do have will be the first target for all your tank based shooting, and then they will still need to chew through the conscript wall to get to your tanks. This assumes that those units can even draw LOS to your tanks during the game to begin with.
One large issue with conscripts is their durability as a screen + the fall back rules + orders + IG having copious access to shooting that does not need LOS.
If CC armies could hit conscripts and get locked in there would be no issue
If cc armies could hit conscripts and those conscripts could do nothing but fall back, there might be an issue, but at least it would be a little less shooting
If conscripts took morale losses more than 1 per turn, there would be less issue, because at least then assaulting units could reliably cripple the conscripts before dying.
IF IG units needed LOS to shoot things, at least then other armies ranged options could be used to counter the IG ranged options.
2017/07/27 14:29:48
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Make your Elite units havocs with lascannons. Or lascannon predators. Or helldrakes with hades cannons. Or Helltalons. Or traitor Leman Russ Annihilators.
There's tons of ranged-anti-tank available to Chaos. If they bring 200 conscripts and 3 tanks, deal with those 3 tanks the same way you'd deal with an army that brought 6 tactical squads in 3 Rhinos.
Don't nerf Commissars too heavily, because then Inquisitors will become the meta.
Honestly I'm surprised Guard players don't use Inquisitors more than Lord Commissars; we're hurting for HQ choices without just spamming the same 2 or 3, and they're exactly the same price as a Lord Commissar with a power weapon but are psykers, can still embark in transports, and one of their psychic powers allows a unit to auto-pass morale checks without even suffering the 1 loss from Summary Execution.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What gunline? If you bring 200 conscripts with support to a 1500 point game you get like, one baneblade, or two-three LRBTs, or like, 3 manticores, as your gunline.
At 1500 points, you should have plenty of assets to shoot over the conscripts and kill 2-3 tanks.
No one is taking 200 conscripts because then there's nothing for them to screen. It's not like they're free.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
I'm sorry your mono-build unsupported CC army made up entirely of Khorne Berzerkers and nothing else can no longer faceroll the Imperial Guard.
ADDITIONAL EDIT:
Every single CC army I know has had a way to crack open tanks with shooting because in 6th and 7th, hiding in transports was a good way to get a free shooting phase at the enemy unit that charged the transport and not the contents. So if you have literally 0 antitank shooting, I don't really know what to say?
Of note, armies like orks lack very few good ranged anti-tank options, and so rely on CC to do that work. What they do have will be the first target for all your tank based shooting, and then they will still need to chew through the conscript wall to get to your tanks. This assumes that those units can even draw LOS to your tanks during the game to begin with.
One large issue with conscripts is their durability as a screen + the fall back rules + orders + IG having copious access to shooting that does not need LOS.
If CC armies could hit conscripts and get locked in there would be no issue
If cc armies could hit conscripts and those conscripts could do nothing but fall back, there might be an issue, but at least it would be a little less shooting
If conscripts took morale losses more than 1 per turn, there would be less issue, because at least then assaulting units could reliably cripple the conscripts before dying.
IF IG units needed LOS to shoot things, at least then other armies ranged options could be used to counter the IG ranged options.
Weakness to heavy tanks is engineered into the Orks, just like weakness to hordes is engineered into GK and Deathwatch.
I've mentioned it before, but I think the engineered weakness of Guard is intended to be higher-quality shooting (e.g. Tau), but right now, quantity is trumping quality because of how character buffs work (why use small amounts of high-quality shooting buffed to be slightly better when you can just use a TON of gakky shooting and buff it up to be as good as the high-quality shooting with one character!)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:32:29
2017/07/27 14:33:55
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
The only snipers we have are Marauders that are less than effecient at taking out characters (as they should be) and deep strike attack against commissars has the same problem that deep strike against tanks has: there are 50 bloody conscripts in the way! (In order to deal with the conscripts, first you must kill the Comissar. In order to kill the Comissar you must first destroy the bubble wrap. And what is the bubble wrap? The conscripts.)
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Make your Elite units havocs with lascannons. Or lascannon predators. Or helldrakes with hades cannons. Or Helltalons. Or traitor Leman Russ Annihilators.
There's tons of ranged-anti-tank available to Chaos. If they bring 200 conscripts and 3 tanks, deal with those 3 tanks the same way you'd deal with an army that brought 6 tactical squads in 3 Rhinos.
I do take Havocs with Lascannons, I also take Tank popping Terminators and a Knight fitted out for anti-tank (but mostely to draw fire). The problem is, I can drop a tank per turn (two if I'm very lucky) but the Guard players I play against take more like 6 tanks, a couple of Vendettas and deep striking plasma + melta along with the 50 man conscript screaning. I don't have enough firepower to take out enough of his tanks so that when I finally make it onto the other side of the conscript line I don't immediately get hammered. If I do change up my list and take more ranged anti-tank stuff then it ceases to be a cc army.
I know that there are many chaos lists to counter this stuff but none of them are cc orientated and i don't want another edition where cc becomes the deformed sibling to the far superior shooting army again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:44:19
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2017/07/27 14:45:18
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
"Martel, I will happily increase the quality of my responses to you once you drag yourself out of that salty sea you have been stuck in for the past few editions, dry your eyes and start actually looking at the Guard codex and the things you are claiming we are capable of and compare the two. I think your claims of "super conscript deathstar bubblewrap deepstrike denial hell" are incredibly short sighted and incorrect, or that your local IG players have been cheating"
You're making stuff up. I merely stated that the IG had efficient units in addition to the conscripts. Which is absolutely true. I think that marines have one unit to match that was nerfed FOR A GOOD REASON. No one wants to play against 5 stormravens.
IG players are truly the new Tau players.
7th ed Tau: "It's fine that it takes 40 lascannons to kill a Riptide!. We NEED that. If we didn't we might actually lose a game to IG or BA!"
8th ed IG: "Conscripts for 3 pts are FINE! We NEED that, or we might actually have to move and not be able to win every game by tabling the opponent!"
MoO is notoriously terrible at running his own list in 6th/7th, even as far as denying the efficacy of divination for IG in those editions. Now, he's put on the 7th ed Tau cloak. "Nothing to see here, everything is working as intended; move along". Seriously? Enjoy your autowin button, bro. I didn't think I could lose any more respect for you, but there it is.
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
It takes 169 bolter shots to take down a 50man blob. There is no way to speed this up because of the commissar. This is to remove 150 pts. No one has that many bolter shots to spare. Most lists won't even GET 169 bolter shots in a game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:50:02
2017/07/27 14:53:05
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Ah , you should be okay then. Just get some snipers or deep strikers to kill the Commissar off and your golden.
The only snipers we have are Marauders that are less than effecient at taking out characters (as they should be) and deep strike attack against commissars has the same problem that deep strike against tanks has: there are 50 bloody conscripts in the way! (In order to deal with the conscripts, first you must kill the Comissar. In order to kill the Comissar you must first destroy the bubble wrap. And what is the bubble wrap? The conscripts.)
Does anyone you know play a cc army? CC armies have very few shooting units because, you guessed it, they are a cc army. This kind of thinking reminds me of 7th ed tactica threads: "How do I make my cc army competitive?" "Take a shooting army".
Odd question, but is your army (like the majority of the more vocal complainers here) built around small elite units with high power low RoF weapons?
Berzerker Horde supported by some elite units.
Make your Elite units havocs with lascannons. Or lascannon predators. Or helldrakes with hades cannons. Or Helltalons. Or traitor Leman Russ Annihilators.
There's tons of ranged-anti-tank available to Chaos. If they bring 200 conscripts and 3 tanks, deal with those 3 tanks the same way you'd deal with an army that brought 6 tactical squads in 3 Rhinos.
I do take Havocs with Lascannons, I also take Tank popping Terminators and a Knight fitted out for anti-tank (but mostely to draw fire). The problem is, I can drop a tank per turn (two if I'm very lucky) but the Guard players I play against take more like 6 tanks, a couple of Vendettas and deep striking plasma + melta along with the 50 man conscript screaning. I don't have enough firepower to take out enough of his tanks so that when I finally make it onto the other side of the conscript line I don't immediately get hammered. If I do change up my list and take more ranged anti-tank stuff then it ceases to be a cc army.
I know that there are many chaos lists to counter this stuff but none of them are cc orientated and i don't want another edition where cc becomes the deformed sibling to the far superior shooting army again.
A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
It takes 169 bolter shots to take down a 50man blob. There is no way to speed this up because of the commissar. This is to remove 150 pts. No one has that many bolter shots to spare. Most lists won't even GET 169 bolter shots in a game.
Why are you dedicating shooting power to wiping out a screen that you can just shoot over?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 14:54:01
2017/07/27 15:00:00
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
2017/07/27 15:02:01
Subject: Re:How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
I think the main problem comes from the fact that they are so easily spammable, so putting some force org restrictions such as "only 1/2 units per detachment" or "for every unit of conscripts in an army, you must also take 3 infantry squads and 1 veteran squad". These ideas would other restrict the number you saw on a table, or impose a tax for taking them. This could also be used for other things like brimstone horrors (not familiar with daemon codex so won't make any silly suggestions)
Owz it work.
Coz I sez it doz, dats why
2017/07/27 15:04:05
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
Killing 30 is fine. Presuming they have 4 strung back to invissisar back behind LOS blocking terrain, that leaves 16 alive - you have just punched a massive hole in their screen, wherever those casualties came from. Remember, the conscripts are the screen - as soon as you do enough casualties to punch a hole, you run through the breach.
You don't keep attacking a castle wall when you've already punched a hole in it for your troops to storm through.
2017/07/27 15:04:51
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
And who's arse did you pull that fact out of?
10 man Zerker unit
6 PF attacks -->3 dead
36 CA attacks -->17 dead
20 CS attacks --> 6 dead
So just over half the unit is dead on the charge.
Luckily I take 20 Zerkers because otherwise it wouldn't be much of a Zerker Horde and I usually whipe out the unit. Good right? However, you are now sat at the end of turn 2 or the start of turn 3 with all of your squishy cc units out in the open (after getting out of the Rhinos which are the only thing that prevented the units from being whiped turn 1) and combinations of Punishers, Heavy Bolters and Flamers will now whipe out close to 500pts of your army army after they killed a 150pt line of bubble wrap.
If a 10 man unit could whipe them out in a turn I definitely wouldn't be complaining.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
2017/07/27 15:08:32
Subject: How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?
Unit1126PLL wrote: A single 50 man conscript screen will be dissolved in a single charge from 10 Khorne 'zerkers. I'm not sure what you're worried about.
I keep seeing this claim but the numbers just don't add up for me. Even with chainaxe+chainsword you are killing 30, not 50 conscripts.
Killing 30 is fine. Presuming they have 4 strung back to invissisar back behind LOS blocking terrain, that leaves 16 alive - you have just punched a massive hole in their screen, wherever those casualties came from. Remember, the conscripts are the screen - as soon as you do enough casualties to punch a hole, you run through the breach.
You don't keep attacking a castle wall when you've already punched a hole in it for your troops to storm through.
16 conscripts can still also leave a screen well over 3' wide... I mean, obviously they probably won't be deployed like that, they'll be deployed around an objective or in front of tanks... but the conscript player chooses which ones die, so killing "most" is probably not good enough for a melee army.
