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Made in us
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Leominster

 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.

Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.



My entire HH group here in New England give zero feths about scale I can tell you that.

"I was never a Son of Horus. I was and remain a Luna Wolf. A proud son of Cthonia, a loyal servant of the Emperor."

Recasts are like Fight Cub. No one talks about it, but more people do it then you realize.



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 Arbitrator wrote:

The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.

If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."


So the argument here is that anyone who wants 8ed Heresy isn’t a REAL Heresy fan anyway?


   
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 ArbitorIan wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.

If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."


So the argument here is that anyone who wants 8ed Heresy isn’t a REAL Heresy fan anyway?


Yeah, I knew that fallacy was going to get brought up..

No, but if you look at a large swathe of players who jumped onto 30k because of 40k's state, it was always going to be a temporary pitstop. They wanted to play 40k, but could no longer excuse it's issues, however 30k - at least for the massive majority who collect Space Marines - was the next best thing. Now 40k is no longer in the total state that it was with 7th's nonsense, so those people have packed up and gone back to their main domain. They might still have Legion forces, but they can't use them against other 40k armies, at least without a fan version anyway.

30k won't suddenly explode back to popularity if it moved over to 8th. What we'd see is a lot of 40k players using their Legion armies against 8th edition 40k armies. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's probably not quite what people envision when they said 'rekindle 30k'.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/16 00:17:33


 
   
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LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
 The Riddle of Steel wrote:
You know, it just dawned on me, the problem with Horus Heresy in GW's eyes is not the rules; it's the scale.

Now that they have Primaris marines, they are not going to want to release any more regular scale marines. So they are not going to want to push a system that only uses obsolete models of the wrong scale.



My entire HH group here in New England give zero feths about scale I can tell you that.


I am totally fine with the current scale of marines as are most Horus Heresy players. Primaris are even more out of whack with vehicles than the regular marines so I am in no hurry to go to super-28mm or whatever scale they are in. My point is that Games Workshop is slowly moving all of their models to gigantic sizes over the last few years. Just look at the scale from the starter set:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjgr83n8IneAhVSKKwKHbgoB40QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FWarhammer%2Fcomments%2F6cx2gr%2F8th_starter_set_scale_of_models_side_by_side%2F&psig=AOvVaw2KYz6Bb6B3NdzSDgHI-F84&ust=1539742188957811

The poxwalker is at least as tall as the marine, maybe taller. The new plague marine is taller and much bulkier overall. The Primaris marine next to the normal marine just looks ridiculous. I don't really see how anyone could use both models side by side in an army with a straight face.

But the point is that if GW is slowly moving all power-armored marines to a larger scale, I find it very unlikely that they will continue to make any new models of space marines in the old outdated scale for 40k. This makes it tricky to do much with Horus Heresy since they maybe count on a good deal of Forge World model sales going to 40k players who want unique models/armies. If 40k jumps totally to huge marines, then you can expect a lot less love for normal scaled marines in the future as GW will eventually want to phase them out and slowly replace them with Primaris. It's just that it will take many years to re-do the entire line so they had to come up with a story reason why the two versions can exist side by side in the intervening years. This also gives players plenty of time to accept the gradual change and eventually shift their collections over to the new scale.

I love the current Horus Heresy models and I don't plan to abandon my army building with this game anytime soon. I just doubt that GW will give the game much love in the form of new power armored models going forward. But I would love to be proven wrong!

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HH has totally died both where I used to live and where I moved recently. A couple years ago, we had a decent sized group of 8-10 people that got together pretty regularly to play HH. Once 40k moved to 8th and HH stayed in 7th, most of us ebayed our HH armies or repurposed them for 40k. I play AoS, KT, and 40k. Keeping track of which 40k rules apply to HH and which are only for 8th 40k is not something I have any interest in. It also shows me that FW and GW have a complete disconnect when it comes to rules. It seems like they told FW a week before the book went to print that 8th was coming out, and they're already too understaffed to do anything about it. The best thing that happened when Kirby stepped down was a focus on cleaning up the rules. HH is still being played under the policy of "we make and sell models, that just happen to have some rules in case a tiny minority of our customers want to play games with them once in awhile". I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset (which was a clusterf@#$ anyway) to play 30k. It's also impossible to get a community going when they can't buy the core rulebook, red books, black books, or any of the models without ordering from FW. The 30% price hike they just did made me even happier that I got out of 30k. I can either buy a nice watch or rebuild my 30k army, which I wouldn't even be able to find a game with because everyone else has quit. It might still have a following in the UK but in the southeastern US 30k is as good as dead.
   
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 Toofast wrote:
I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset


You play 40k, AoS and KT, but you don't want to play 30k because it has a different ruleset ? That doesn't have any sens, does it ? Help me understand that
Why did you sell your armies when 40k moved to 8th ?

   
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HATE Club, East London

 Arbitrator wrote:

No, but if you look at a large swathe of players who jumped onto 30k because of 40k's state, it was always going to be a temporary pitstop. They wanted to play 40k, but could no longer excuse it's issues, however 30k - at least for the massive majority who collect Space Marines - was the next best thing. Now 40k is no longer in the total state that it was with 7th's nonsense, so those people have packed up and gone back to their main domain. They might still have Legion forces, but they can't use them against other 40k armies, at least without a fan version anyway.


I certainly think those people exist, but I think a lot of people didn’t need to ‘pick’ or ‘switch’ because they played both. In fact, that was one of the main selling points.

I played 40k and 30k at the end of 6th and start of 7th. As 7th carried on I just stopped playing 40k so much, because it was a bit of a shitshow. The game is the same, the background is brilliant, and enough people were playing it locally (all of whom also owned 40k armies) that there was a community to play with. Once 8ed came out, a lot of people WAY preferred the game, and liked the fact that they could play 40k again. But nobody wants to have to switch between the two, as once you’re used to 8ed, 7ed seems like a headache.

If Heresy switched to 8ed, I think we’d all still be playing it. The argument that, because those people still like 40k, they somehow aren’t as big a fan of the Heresy, or that people wouldn’t ‘switch’ back is missing the point - a huge part of the Heresy fan base are people who enjoy 30k AND 40k settings, and would happily play in both. But right now, they’re not playing 7ed any more.

   
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I know its only circumstantial, but I have been dealing with a lot of HH collectors since I have been selling bits and I often get into conversation with some of them, from what I can gather most of the chaps I speak to, don't even play the game and they are just modellers building and collecting armies.


I wonder how many HH sales on the whole actually go to people that never play ? I could imagine that a concept such as the HH based on novels, attracts more of these people than usual.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/19 13:04:14


 
   
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 godardc wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset


You play 40k, AoS and KT, but you don't want to play 30k because it has a different ruleset ? That doesn't have any sens, does it ? Help me understand that
Why did you sell your armies when 40k moved to 8th ?


I am only going to keep track of so many rulesets at once. If I can play 40k and 30k using the same rules, like I did all through 7th, that's fine. If 30k has a completely different ruleset, and I also happen to find it vastly inferior to the other rulesets I play, I would rather just quit than force myself to remember a ruleset that I don't enjoy. I sold my 30k armies when I found out it was being kept in 7th because 7th is my least favorite ruleset in the history of 40k, and I've been playing since 3rd. All of my friends felt the same way. I don't even know anyone that plays 30k any more. We figured the game would slowly bleed out when it was left in 7th and wanted to get some decent cash for our FW stuff that couldn't be used in 40k. I'm glad we did because checking ebay right now, legit FW stuff in bags sells for MUCH cheaper than it used to. I can buy death shroud terminators new in bag on ebay cheaper than I can buy their 40k counterparts for example. The game seems to have completely died, at least in this part of the country. If 7th was a better ruleset than 8th, I would've stuck with 30k to keep playing 7th. However, I can't really think of anything I liked better last edition.
   
Made in gb
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England: Newcastle

 Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
 Toofast wrote:
I love the armies, lore, and everything else around 30k, I'm just not going to keep track of a whole other ruleset


You play 40k, AoS and KT, but you don't want to play 30k because it has a different ruleset ? That doesn't have any sens, does it ? Help me understand that
Why did you sell your armies when 40k moved to 8th ?


I am only going to keep track of so many rulesets at once. If I can play 40k and 30k using the same rules, like I did all through 7th, that's fine. If 30k has a completely different ruleset, and I also happen to find it vastly inferior to the other rulesets I play, I would rather just quit than force myself to remember a ruleset that I don't enjoy. I sold my 30k armies when I found out it was being kept in 7th because 7th is my least favorite ruleset in the history of 40k, and I've been playing since 3rd. All of my friends felt the same way. I don't even know anyone that plays 30k any more. We figured the game would slowly bleed out when it was left in 7th and wanted to get some decent cash for our FW stuff that couldn't be used in 40k. I'm glad we did because checking ebay right now, legit FW stuff in bags sells for MUCH cheaper than it used to. I can buy death shroud terminators new in bag on ebay cheaper than I can buy their 40k counterparts for example. The game seems to have completely died, at least in this part of the country. If 7th was a better ruleset than 8th, I would've stuck with 30k to keep playing 7th. However, I can't really think of anything I liked better last edition.


Personally I haven’t taken to 8th and nor has my club in general. My issue with 8th was that it is a totally new system and it is not enjoyable to spend ages flicking for the war scrolls when in 7th most of its to memory. It probably is faster once you memorise the war scrolls but if you have a lot of armies and big collection that is a big hinderence. Also I had only just bought the Genestealer Cults book and thought it was outrageous that they did the Indexes and then went on to release new codex. One of the main things that got me playing games was picking up the new codes as I kept all my armies to date. I stopped doing that with 8th because they are updating these things annually and it’s a waste of money. There are a lot of those books which I simply never got to use.

Which is why I don’t want FW to go to 8th. Those books are enormously expensive and they only just updated the core rule book and all the legion books. Why should I ever buy a black book or even a red book if on a whim they are going to keep invalidating them? I currently have two of the black books as well as both red books. So you’re advocating me losing a few hundred pounds and being asked to cough up for new ones.

I don’t play the game for the rules. Of my immediate friends, they are purely interested in the Heresy and have little to no interest in 40k or AoS.


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As evidenced in this thread there is no simple answer to this question beyond 'The future is whatever FW (Or GW as parent company) decide it is'
I know that's not massively helpful, but i suspect that similar discussions to this have, and still are, happening at FW/GW too.
There seems, at least anecdotally from this one topic, to be several distinct groups in the camp, including (but not limited to) people who collect but don't play, people who want to be able to play games where the local 8th Ed 40k scene hasn't developed, people who want to play games but the local 30k scene has dried up, people who don't like 8th/feel it has enough 'depth', people who don't like 7th/AoDv1.
All this really shows it that the 'community' is divided on the subject.
I was lucky enough to be at the last HH weekender in February, and was in the 'AoD Forum' session with Neil and Anuj (2 of the HH Games Developers) where this question was effectively asked, and they did a quick 'hands in the air' poll. There were about around 40 people in the room, and i was one of two people who put their hands up when they asked a question along the lines of 'Who would be happy if we moved to 8th?' (Originally they asked something like 'who wants to stay with 7th?' but that was a sea of arms and didn't prove anything!)
This might make it seem overwhelmingly like people want to stay 7th, but the other person to raise his hand wanted to move to 8th because his club had moved to 8th and he couldn't get a game, where as I said that ultimately, I wasn't bothered what the rule set was, i just wanted the chance to play fun games with awesome models in a cool setting (Yeah, i know how cheesey that sounds ) but it got a lot of nods around the room (including Neil and Anuj) Either way, Neil and Anuj, did state they intended to release BA, DA, WS, Daemons and Dark Mech in 7th so that it was all out in the same rule set. They also mentioned that they don't feel that the rules changes invalidate the Black Books, because they are background/setting books first and foremost. Owning all 7, and having read the background, when i knew I'd never get an army for over half of them, and the unit rules being updated, has never bothered me, because the background story/setting contained within is so rich.

Personally, i'd welcome the change to 8th. I have groups of gaming friends locally, and one plays AoS and the other 8th. I don't play enough games (1-2 a month) to recall all the rules for both those yet, and on the rare occasion that I do play a game of AoD in 7th, there is little chance (my opponents normally tell me not to take models off from my Custodes units because i forget about the wound allocation rules!) of me remembering those rules and i feel like i might be impacting my opponents enjoyment of the game. The ability to only play in 2 rules sets would be welcomed! And might mean i get my Vylka Fenryka built and painted! (not to mention, Titanicus I've picked up, because who doesn't want to play with big stompy .

Sorry its so long - and everyone who made it end, thank you for bearing with me!
   
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Deathwatch101 wrote:
Sorry its so long - and everyone who made it end, thank you for bearing with me!


We're not here to offer complete and nuanced answers, we're here to shout that we're right and everyone else is wrong. I'm just joking. That is probably the most comprehensive answer. Many of us disagree about what the best way forward is and we're at the mercy of GW/FW to make that decision.
   
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Washington

Honestly I feel as though 28mm heroic scale Horus Heresy won't re-surge, it will kind of be there in the background getting a book every few years until it dies.

Part of me thinks Titanicus is a precursor to EPIC 30k. A new scale, new books, new models a whole new line for 30k.
   
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 primalexile wrote:
Honestly I feel as though 28mm heroic scale Horus Heresy won't re-surge, it will kind of be there in the background getting a book every few years until it dies.

Part of me thinks Titanicus is a precursor to EPIC 30k. A new scale, new books, new models a whole new line for 30k.


Perhaps. Maybe they don't want to compete with their own products and 30k is kinda running on 40Ks turf despite using a different edition.

Personally I'd just like some openness from Forgeworld about the entire thing. What they want to do and where they're aiming.
   
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Deathwatch101 wrote:

I was lucky enough to be at the last HH weekender in February, and was in the 'AoD Forum' session with Neil and Anuj (2 of the HH Games Developers) where this question was effectively asked, and they did a quick 'hands in the air' poll. There were about around 40 people in the room, and i was one of two people who put their hands up when they asked a question along the lines of 'Who would be happy if we moved to 8th?' (Originally they asked something like 'who wants to stay with 7th?' but that was a sea of arms and didn't prove anything!)


I can believe its like going to a (for example) radical leftist party and ask who agrees the taxes for the richest people should be around 90%. Or going to a radical right wing party and ask about the race purity in the nation.

However neither party is going to win an election because in order to do it you have to win the center voters.

Same with this situation and HH. If HH stays in 7th its never going to expand and bring in new players in a reasonable way. It is doomed to a slow death.
   
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I think 'die' is the wrong kind of language, though. As long as people are still playing it, the game is still 'alive'. As long as models and books are still available, the game is still 'supported'. And I don't see any reason why it can't be alive and supported for a long time according to those definitions. Some 30K kits would probably stay available even in the event of 30K's 'death', since those kits can be used in 40K now.

Will it be a shrinking HH community? Of course. It looks to me like focusing on a smaller pool of their best customers is the entire business plan, to be honest. But you know, maybe that's the best way to keep the thing sustainable for those customers. *shrug*

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Eldarsif wrote:
Perhaps. Maybe they don't want to compete with their own products and 30k is kinda running on 40Ks turf despite using a different edition.

Personally I'd just like some openness from Forgeworld about the entire thing. What they want to do and where they're aiming.


That’s difficult when they’re a subsidiary organisation and probably don’t really know themselves, and when the amount of resources they can command is dependent on the parent company decisions, AND when changing your mind pisses off the fan base even more.

At one point it was definitely going to 8ed ‘eventually’. Then Alan died and GW piled a fair amount more things onto the FW studio (which is a totally reasonable thing to do given their actual remit) and even if FW hired more people, there will be a lag to get things going. So then the official position changes to ‘stick with 7ed’ and the rule book is rushed out and that’s the official FW line at the moment. But if they have a few more years of lower growth or sales, that might change again. And that could be the decision of any number of people, not just the FW HH team.

Glumy wrote:I can believe its like going to a (for example) radical leftist party and ask who agrees the taxes for the richest people should be around 90%. Or going to a radical right wing party and ask about the race purity in the nation.

However neither party is going to win an election because in order to do it you have to win the center voters.

Same with this situation and HH. If HH stays in 7th its never going to expand and bring in new players in a reasonable way. It is doomed to a slow death.


Agreed, and I can’t believe Tony and Anuj don’t know that. Answering the question that way is just a way of reinforcing that they couldn’t give a gak about all the Heresy fans who prefer 8ed, or don’t have huge communities to play against. ‘Yup, the people who HAVEN’T left the system are fine with it so there can’t be a problem’.

   
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Well... Maybe they could introduce a simplified 7th. Cut the rulebook to 1/3 or at least 1/2 of the original. You can throw away more complicated and uneeded stuff (for example like charging first model to first model or losing models from the front, etc). If possible perhaps leave cool stuff like Challenges.

Also bring in some kind or CP and rerolls.

Making the edition more simple, easier to learn and dont make all older rules completely thrashed.

Either this or 8th.
   
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 godardc wrote:
Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.



And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArbitorIan wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

The thing is, most of those people clamouring for HH to move to 8th only played HH in the first place because 40k was in such a horrible place. I'm willing to bet most of the very same people baying that HH go 8th, whilst acting gleeful at perceptions it's dying, still wouldn't give it the time of day. The exception would be if a guy with a Legions list offered them a game against their Primaris or something. 30k was and will likely always be niche. Even at it's height, it was mostly people running Pride of the Legion. People wanted a Games Workshop(tm) approved product they could play Space Marines in that wasn't 40k, because 40k was busted. Now 40k is 'better' most of them are only going to stick with that anyway.

If HH went 8th, I'm willing to bet good money those same detractors would then shift the narrative to, "I will never buy a short Marine now Primaris are here. If FW don't give us true scaled 30k, it will die. Nobody in my community is playing 30k because short Marines look weird."


So the argument here is that anyone who wants 8ed Heresy isn’t a REAL Heresy fan anyway?



Nice straw man argument there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/25 16:37:23


 
   
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 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.



And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.





You mean calling people who buy from recasters 'parasites' are going to be driven to the arms of recasters? Weren't they there already? That's not much of a threat.

I don't know if people remember but several small miniature companies were killed almost outright by recasters in that whole 'wait? We can buy things on the internet?' craze of the 90s. There's a reason game companies have to be both the source of the rules *and* the source of the miniatures, the small casting companies are all gone. I'm not certain calling them out does much good - if they were going to feel guilty about the amorality of their decision they wouldn't have done it in the first place. We always have players like this, complaining about authentic miniature prices, lying about the source of their miniatures, being absolutely boggled when the game company they spent hundreds of dollars on didn't survive. It's just part of gaming life in the modern era - like the kid who colors the golden border of his magic cards or the person who loudly demands that FAQs be written to their specifications instead of the greater community.

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 ChargerIIC wrote:
 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.



And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.





You mean calling people who buy from recasters 'parasites' are going to be driven to the arms of recasters? Weren't they there already? That's not much of a threat.

I don't know if people remember but several small miniature companies were killed almost outright by recasters in that whole 'wait? We can buy things on the internet?' craze of the 90s. There's a reason game companies have to be both the source of the rules *and* the source of the miniatures, the small casting companies are all gone. I'm not certain calling them out does much good - if they were going to feel guilty about the amorality of their decision they wouldn't have done it in the first place. We always have players like this, complaining about authentic miniature prices, lying about the source of their miniatures, being absolutely boggled when the game company they spent hundreds of dollars on didn't survive. It's just part of gaming life in the modern era - like the kid who colors the golden border of his magic cards or the person who loudly demands that FAQs be written to their specifications instead of the greater community.



30k Would not have half the players it does if not for recast.
Do not get me wrong, its piracy through and through. But hey, FW miniatures are insanely overpriced and with the recent increases for no reason even more so. When we got plastic Heresy I bought three boxes of each because it was a good deal.
GW is the only company I have every bought recast for simply due to the price barrier. Without recast I would not have been able to get into 30k.

"I was never a Son of Horus. I was and remain a Luna Wolf. A proud son of Cthonia, a loyal servant of the Emperor."

Recasts are like Fight Cub. No one talks about it, but more people do it then you realize.



Armies.
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LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Recasters and people buying from recasters are like parasites: they live thanks to others, vampirize them remorseless and have no moral.
The cancer of the wargame industry.



And sentiment like that is why a lot of people are driven away from GW and FW and into the arms of the recasters and will continue to buy from them. This sentiment accomplishes NOTHING except alienating fellow hobbyists who also love the game, but for one reason or another choose to try and make their money go further.





You mean calling people who buy from recasters 'parasites' are going to be driven to the arms of recasters? Weren't they there already? That's not much of a threat.

I don't know if people remember but several small miniature companies were killed almost outright by recasters in that whole 'wait? We can buy things on the internet?' craze of the 90s. There's a reason game companies have to be both the source of the rules *and* the source of the miniatures, the small casting companies are all gone. I'm not certain calling them out does much good - if they were going to feel guilty about the amorality of their decision they wouldn't have done it in the first place. We always have players like this, complaining about authentic miniature prices, lying about the source of their miniatures, being absolutely boggled when the game company they spent hundreds of dollars on didn't survive. It's just part of gaming life in the modern era - like the kid who colors the golden border of his magic cards or the person who loudly demands that FAQs be written to their specifications instead of the greater community.



30k Would not have half the players it does if not for recast.
Do not get me wrong, its piracy through and through. But hey, FW miniatures are insanely overpriced and with the recent increases for no reason even more so. When we got plastic Heresy I bought three boxes of each because it was a good deal.
GW is the only company I have every bought recast for simply due to the price barrier. Without recast I would not have been able to get into 30k.


Which works so long as 2 other people buy enough from forgeworld to replace the profit they aren't getting from you. GW can probably take the hit, but then again we all thought that about FASA, Borders books, and all that giant pile of dead FLGS where gaming metas used to be. You might have no effect or even a positive effect on the community, but be aware that someone else is having to cover your financial savings to keep the game alive and not in WHFB territory.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/25 21:07:11


Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


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Palmer, AK

 ChargerIIC wrote:


Which works so long as 2 other people buy enough from forgeworld to replace the profit they aren't getting from you. GW can probably take the hit, but then again we all thought that about FASA, Borders books, and all that giant pile of dead FLGS where gaming metas used to be. You might have no effect or even a positive effect on the community, but be aware that someone else is having to cover your financial savings to keep the game alive and not in WHFB territory.



So...it's OK so long as there's plenty of other people out there to compensate for those lost sales? I'm confused I thought buying from recasters PERIOD was bad?

Everyone hates on the recasters but no one says ANYTHING about the guys that scratch-build, proxy from other manufacturers, or 3D-print their own models. They're just as guilty of not contributing to FW sales.

For some reason it's only the recasters that create such vitriol.




And just for the record...I CAN afford FW product. I just choose not to buy anything from them because I think they charge too much. But if prices returned back to where they were a year or two ago (here in the U.S.) then I'd happily start buying from them again.

Here's the conundrum that a LOT of people (including myself) face as well:

We have different (better IMO) game systems that we buy the models for and promote because we like them/they're cheaper but our local communities/friends ONLY play GW games. It takes a lot of effort to buy and paint multiple factions for these games and demo them, all for the hope of trying to get others to buy into our alternate game system of choice. More often than not this never works out.

So we're left with the choice of either NOT playing these games and only collecting/painting, or buying into GW games which are ludicrously overpriced by a company that doesn't seem to care - if you can't afford or won't spend the money required to collect an army for these games then "you're not the type of customer we're after". EDIT: Hell they just mentioned recently that they even want you using ONLY their bases for their models. If you've based your 100% otherwise GW army on someone elses bases then...you're SoL; I guess it's "never been a better time to collect a new army" then huh?

So we're driven to the recasters JUST SO WE CAN PLAY GAMES LOCALLY WITH OUR FRIENDS AND COMMUNITY. And then we're hated and despised because of it when all we're trying to do is be a part of a community.

Do you see the issue here?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/25 22:24:30


 
   
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Armpit of NY

Oh, the tangled rationalizations we weave, when pirates we seek to be....
   
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Which works so long as 2 other people buy enough from forgeworld to replace the profit they aren't getting from you..


It’s not really as simple as that, though. Profit GW ‘get’ from a single customer comes in a variety of streams. There are always people who value authenticity, and there are always people who like to play 30k, but think the authentic models are overpriced.

Consider someone who wants to play Heresy, buys their big tanks from recasters, but buys two sets of BAC from his local store. Is that lost profit or a gained customer? If that person can’t afford FW prices for the big tanks, and therefore just doesn’t get into 30k at all, that’s £300 of lost profit for GW in lost sales of books and BAC.

I agree that there has to be a good number of people who value the original product, but there are, and that’s not going away. But if the recasters are generating profit for GW through tapping into a market of potential players previously kept out by GWs price point, then GW benefits. They could benefit even more by realising that there IS a price they could set a Spartan at where they’d shift twice as many units, and setting them a5 that price.

To continue the analogy from a hundred pages back, I have a Hyundai which has been repaired over the years with third party parts, because they’re cheaper. Loads of people do this, but Hyundai still sell the more expensive ‘authentic’ parts because some people value that. If they decided to crack down on the third-party parts and make everyone only buy authentic, the cost of repairing Hyundais goes up and their overall sales go down.

   
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Before talking about whole recasting thing you should first take notice about what is available in plastic and what is available in resin for HH.

Lets talk about the roots of the problem from the start.

FW before they even started making HH was a company that made special units for most of the races (alright, alright mostly IG) available in 40k. You could use these units but usually there was a general rule to ban them in normal games (at least in my area). So basically you had a GW made plastic/metal core of the force and optional funny toys made from resin. You didnt need these funny toys to play - they were optional.

So there came a time when (2012 i think) FW basically made their own game, a spin-off of 40k called Horus Heresy. However being its own game all miniatures for it were basically made from resin - there was no available core made from plastic/metal like 40k equivalent. You could use your 40k plastic marines but it wasnt the same. So at the start we can assume HH was like a game for people with big wallets. There is nothing really wrong with games for people with big wallets but it means there wouldnt be so many players around. Now if FW would like to increase the number of players they should think about making core of the army plastic just like 40k. So they should have released from the start:

1) MK3 or MK4 Assault Marines
2) MK3 or MK4 Tactical Marines with close combat variant pistol/chainsword (we got this but without pistol/chainswords - both MK3 and MK4)
3) MK3 or Mk4 Devastators
4) Plastic Deimos Pattern Rhino
5) Plastic Deimos Pattern Predator with several weapon options
6) Plastic Contemptor with several weapon options (we got this but only with 2 weapons + fist)
7) Cataphractii Terminators (we got this also with Tartaros variant)
8) Big introduction box that is a good deal (we got BaC and BoP)
9) Easily available and reasonable priced Legion and Army List codexes

Above plastic boxes should be absolute minimum for a HH game if it was supposed to be a viable alternative for 40k and not only a game for the people with big wallets. We only got 4 out of 9 i pointed out and only after several years in the making of HH. I myself started HH only after the release of BaC. If not for this box i wouldnt even try.

--------
So imagine yourself a player (with big wallet) starting around 2013 before even BaC box. You have to pay a lot for the books and miniatures sure, but the biggest problem is there are not many people around playing the game. And even if they are theyre probably using MK7 most of the time and dont use Deimos pattern.
Lets got to the end of 2015 - introduction of BaC. More people are coming to the game because 40k 7th is bloated. However because rules for HH are still costly and there are no Assault and Devastator plastic boxes what players have to do for their core of the army? Either convert or go recast. Now you (a player with big wallet) wants enemies to play so now what? Should they just dont start the game? Maybe should they wait for introduction of all 9 elements of the puzzle or just all of us should agree this is a game just for people with big wallets only (as should be proper)?
But you (a player with big wallet) want enemies to fight with... Why should you even consider buying a Primarch or other expensive toys from FW if there are no people to play with (assuming you want to play)? So with introduction of easily available plastic boxes you now have more of such enemies. But still there are no Assault, Devastator or Deimos pattern boxes. So what now? So here come recasters with help... so maybe they did help HH a little? Maybe some players with big wallets bought some more expensive toys from FW because they had more enemies to fight with?
-------

So what should be done? GW (or FW) fethed up from the start without releasing all basic necessary elements for players. No wonder so many recasters are around if you have to buy so many basic weaponry made from resin.

So are recasters completely bad? Yes and no depending on who youre asking but from a law standpoint - yes theyre bad. But from a game standpoint i would put them somewhere in the middle.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/26 01:12:26


 
   
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 badguyshaveallthefun wrote:


Everyone hates on the recasters but no one says ANYTHING about the guys that scratch-build, proxy from other manufacturers, or 3D-print their own models. They're just as guilty of not contributing to FW sales.

For some reason it's only the recasters that create such vitriol.


They aren't leeching on FW's work by copying already done work but are actually doing their own work though. Nor are they selling those to others. There's difference between doing work yourself and leeching for profit.


There's no excuse for the leeches that the recasters are. They are scumbags. Human genepool improves if they never get children.

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Automatically Appended Next Post:
There's no excuse for the leeches that the recasters are. They are scumbags. Human genepool improves if they never get children.


Man, of al criminals, drugs, human trafficking, fake meds, sex slavery etc. people get to rise torches for recasters...1st world problems...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/26 09:25:33


 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Glumy wrote:
Lets talk about the roots of the problem from the start.
-------
So they should have released from the start:
-------
So what should be done? GW (or FW) fethed up from the start without releasing all basic necessary elements for players. No wonder so many recasters are around if you have to buy so many basic weaponry made from resin.


While I agree with you generally, I don't think it's necessary for FW to have done all that 'from the start' at all. It's perfectly reasonable for a company to realise that there is a bigger market than originally thought, and adjust their product to fit it.

I'd suggest that, at the start, HH was a game intended for people with the big wallets. That's fine. But the basic release was some Legion stuff and some special characters, and FW were always really open that they expected people to use 40k plastic vehicles. The Deimos rhino was only made into a must-have by a community of rivet-counters - it was an 'alternate Rhino' when it was released. I think a game marketed to be so expensive encouraged this, but the result was a small community of big-wallet customers.

But then GW realised that a lot of people wanted to get into the game (or what always been a bit interested, but maybe because of 7ed 40k, were now seriously interested), but were put off by the massive cost of even basic troops, and that they could make more money by reducing the cost of entry. So they changed their gameplan to appeal not only to big-wallet customers but also slightly-higher-than-average-wallet customers by introducing plastic infantry. That's no different to Apple releasing an iPad mini, or Mercedes releasing a little city runaround. They've identified a demand and adjusted their offering to attract more customers.

They're not going for 'as big as 40k' here. They haven't 'fethed up' by not instantly releasing a full 30k Marine army in plastic. They've just expanded their customer base from 'the richest of gamers' to 'gamers who have a bit more money than the 40k average'. That's fine, and resulted in huge popularity for the game.

The recasters have identified a third market: gamers who are happy to spend 40k prices, and want to play Heresy, but either can't afford multiple £100 tanks or simply don't think a tank model is worth £100 for what it is. The sensible thing to do in that situation is to realise that market exists and find a way to cater to it (more plastic kits, cheaper resin kits and higher production, etc). If a Spartan cost £60 then far fewer people would buy a recast one, right?

Instead, they've removed all the plastic starter sets, increased the price of resin, and made it harder for their biggest source of new players (existing 40k players) to get into the game by separating the rules. It seems like the actual intention at the moment is to scale down the game and the size of the community. Again, that's fine (they're a busy company with a lot going on) but it does mean less releases and less support, and more things being discontinued.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/26 17:45:39


   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




Arbitorlan sure. I wrote "Now if FW would like to increase the number of players they should think about making core of the army plastic just like 40k." so change "from the start" to "once the decision was made to increase number of players".
   
 
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