Switch Theme:

Dune  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Glorious Nation of U.S.S.A!

Part 2 confirmed.

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/dune-part-2-sequel-1235094974/
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Leicester

Huzzah!

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in ie
Dakka Veteran




Ireland

Seen it twice now, going again this time with my Wife, who has not read the books. So going to be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Really glad that part two has been given the go ahead.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

My daughter asked to go see it again, so that would be her third time.

Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing 
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






 stonehorse wrote:
Seen it twice now, going again this time with my Wife, who has not read the books. So going to be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Really glad that part two has been given the go ahead.


It seems crazy it wasn’t green lit before. But these are of course unusual times.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Glorious Nation of U.S.S.A!

 Easy E wrote:
My daughter asked to go see it again, so that would be her third time.


Was she fresh to Dune or already familiar with it from the novels and previous adaptations? If the former, what part interests her most out of curiosity?
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

She was familiar with it from the Lynch version, but not the books.

I am not sure exactly what interests her the most about it, but I think it is a combination of the world-building, visuals, and the main actors in the new one.

Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Having never read the book(s), are the Harkonnen such obviously over the top baddies in the original?

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Glorious Nation of U.S.S.A!

Cool. I hope it doesn't eventually sour for her.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Having never read the book(s), are the Harkonnen such obviously over the top baddies in the original?



Yes. Having said that, in the books the only "good guys" really are Liet Kynes and the Fremen. Everyone else is just spectrum of manipulating bad guys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 17:20:53


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Leicester

I struggle to even class the Fremen as “good guys” definitely the underdogs, but a brutal, utilitarian society that’s big on death cults, mortal combat and religious war hardly counts as “good”.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I found it interesting that apparently part of the the reason part 2 got green lit is that they reached their estimated US opening weekend box office for part 1. An estimate that was made pre-pandemic. Which begs the question of how much of a breakout hit this would have been if released in the before times?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 18:39:12


DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
Made in ca
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Frazzled wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
Having never read the book(s), are the Harkonnen such obviously over the top baddies in the original?



Yes. Having said that, in the books the only "good guys" really are Liet Kynes and the Fremen. Everyone else is just spectrum of manipulating bad guys.


Sounds like some Harkonnen propaganda right there.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 Jadenim wrote:
I struggle to even class the Fremen as “good guys” definitely the underdogs, but a brutal, utilitarian society that’s big on death cults, mortal combat and religious war hardly counts as “good”.


That reads remarkably like the current default argument of colonial apologism. I don't know what that implies about Dune as political commentary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 19:22:49


Posters on ignore list: 34

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

I think there might be a compelling "unreliable narrator" argument to be made about House Harkonnen.

Essentially all we are told about them is from Atredies POV, and they look kinda weird. But from their perspective they've been put in a position where they have to sacrifice their own to regain something they already had or suffer catastrophic financial and political damage.

Not to try and frame them as the good guys, but I think it's a riff on one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Well least they are honest about their selfishness, Leto I "nice guy" facade is pretty much what brings the Imperial House into the game, admittedly there might be some Harkonnen spin but no smoke without fire

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think I'd have preferred if Harkonnen and Atredies were portrayed more as moral equals.

Instead Harkonnen all dress in black, hang out in dark smokey rooms, live on planet Lightning-Wracked Evil Place, and spend their free time torturing people.
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Yeah but the reason the emperor is moving against Atredies is because they present as the good guys. They have political sway because the people of the empire view them as heroes. The moral great. The gods amongst men that they would follow, possibly even against the emperor.

The Harkonans are NOT that. They are not presenting the same or viewed as the same.

Its why the emperor wants to manipulate things to crush Atredies and in doing so remind Harkonan that dune was given to them and dune can be taken away. Arakis is not Harkonans right. Its the emperors, and he will give and take away as he sees fit.

Atredies isn't the golden boys they present as, but they DO present that way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 23:32:25



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Azreal13 wrote:
Not to try and frame them as the good guys, but I think it's a riff on one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


Dune is in many ways a story far ahead of its time crafted with very outdated tools.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

While I'd like to think that, I'm afraid it just tackles themes which haven't changed in millennia because we never learn at a species level.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 stonehorse wrote:
Seen it twice now, going again this time with my Wife, who has not read the books. So going to be interesting to see her reaction to it.

Really glad that part two has been given the go ahead.


It seems crazy it wasn’t green lit before. But these are of course unusual times.


Blade Runner 2049 bombed (no idea why, I think it's pretty good. Not as good as the original, but that would be a hell of a bar to clear) so I think they were worried that the director would make another box office failure and didn't want to commit.
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 Lance845 wrote:
Atredies isn't the golden boys they present as, but they DO present that way.


I think that's a solid take...that's it's the view in the Imperium. To be fair, the Harkonnens ARE pretty brutal and take slaves, etc. So it's like the story of two guys encountering a bear in the woods. Can't outrun the bear, but you really only have to outrun the other guy.

The Harkonnens weren't always so bad. The prequel novels established the cause of the Atreides-Harkonnen feud. IIRC, the Harkonnens were actually wronged by a false accusation of cowardice by an Atreides. Seems like that just kinda poisoned their souls.

My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there might be a compelling "unreliable narrator" argument to be made about House Harkonnen.

Essentially all we are told about them is from Atredies POV, and they look kinda weird. But from their perspective they've been put in a position where they have to sacrifice their own to regain something they already had or suffer catastrophic financial and political damage.

Not to try and frame them as the good guys, but I think it's a riff on one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.


For clarity I have not seen the new movie. In the novel, the perspective is from their side as well. They are definitely bad guys, in the sense they have few morals, don't give squat about people lower than them, use political murder and torture, and have more than their share of sick puppies. So your average real life nobility... (Vive le Emperor!)

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ca
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






I don't recall the reason for the outlawing of thinking machines so I'm hoping someone here does. It wasn't explained in the first book that I recall but it has been a few years. I have reread the original a few times but most of the others just once. Considering the density of the world building instead of having to get lost in a wiki I am hoping someone here remembers better than I do.


Also the Atreides did nothing wrong ever and you are all just a bunch of meanies.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

 Ahtman wrote:
I don't recall the reason for the outlawing of thinking machines so I'm hoping someone here does. It wasn't explained in the first book that I recall but it has been a few years. I have reread the original a few times but most of the others just once. Considering the density of the world building instead of having to get lost in a wiki I am hoping someone here remembers better than I do.


I've only recently got into Dune stuff so could be wrong, but originally thinking machines were outlawed because they were seen as stunting human mental development. I think the author's son changed it into some sort of "Terminator-esque" AI that humanity fought a war for survival against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 17:49:21


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 nels1031 wrote:

I've only recently got into Dune stuff so could be wrong, but originally thinking machines were outlawed because they were seen as stunting human mental development. I think the author's son changed it into some sort of "Terminator-esque" AI that humanity fought a war for survival against.


The Butlerian Jihad existed in the original source (before Brian and KJA got off on well, everything). The specific events are left fairly vague, but it involved AI, and AI aligned humans, being overthrown in a religious crusade to "free" humanity from their "control". There are few if any concrete details from that era in the core novels, and it largely acts as an allegorical underpinning to the setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 18:00:35


 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

We should remember Brian and KJA wrote the novels after Chapterhouse based on Frank's notes. In which it's revealed that

Spoiler:
the enemy the Honored Matres fled from was the AI that the humans defeated during the Butlerian Jihad. So it would seem that Frank envisioned the machines as a fairly malevolent force. Although the ending is also pure Frank Herbert.

And it made sense then why the authors chose to tell the story of the Jihad era first (well, other than rea$on$). It familiarized readers with the ultimate villain better than just pulling an AI out of a hat in the final book or two as Frank apparently intended. Surprise!

My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Saw it on IMAX.

The only complaint I have is THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH OF IT.

This will be a classic.

   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Philadelphia

Movie was 9/10 but seemed rushed. I wanted the extended 3.5 hour version like that have with LOTR

True enough to the book

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

As to the issue of “good guys” and “bad guys” — Dune doesn’t deal with these categories.

Frank Herbert did for science fiction what Machiavelli did for political ethics. Is it better for a prince to be loved or feared? It’s tempting to judge Leto and Vladimir by their methodologies but when judged by their motives they are not necessarily so different. Whether by inspiring loyalty pledged willingly or extorting it through terror, both houses seek to maintain their power. Looking at things this way, the crucial question is just which approach is more effective.

This is why it is so critical to Herbert’s narrative that Atreides is defeated through betrayal. Whatever moral high ground it seemingly occupies did not ultimately achieve its goal. In fact, this same appearance of nobility is what made Atreides the target for Shaddam’s schemes in the first place, given it earned too much esteem in the Landsraad.

In Paul, we have the Machiavellian ideal: to be both loved and feared — indeed, to receive love and fear together in a blend of quasi-religious reverence. But nonetheless, to what end? Nothing more than the same dream of power.

   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

 Stevefamine wrote:
Movie was 9/10 but seemed rushed. I wanted the extended 3.5 hour version like that have with LOTR

True enough to the book


Scuttlebutt is that the banquet scene was written and maybe even filmed. So yeah…bring on that extended cut.

My AT Gallery
My World Eaters Showcase
View my Genestealer Cult! Article - Gallery - Blog
Best Appearance - GW Baltimore GT 2008, Colonial GT 2012

DQ:70+S++++G+M++++B++I+Pw40k90#+D++A+++/fWD66R++T(Ot)DM+++

 
   
 
Forum Index » Geek Media
Go to: