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Yeah, from that I would assume that G'Kar and Londo will still be around but with different actors and possibly different personalities/characteristics and narrative arcs before I assumed that they would be cut entirely. Its entirely possible that some less important or secondary characters do get cut/replaced/merged/combined (similar to BSG as noted previously), but I would also assume there to be a core roster of characters that are nigh-untouchable and essential to the story (i.e. it wouldn't be B5 without them) - G'Kar and Londo almost certainly qualify, as would Delenn, Sinclair/Sheridan (presumably merged into a single character this time around), Ivanova, and presumably Garibaldi as well (though he strikes me as being a bit less important/a bit more replaceable than some of the others). Presumably there will also be a Lyta Alexander/Talia Winters type character as well, though like Sheridan/Sinclair possibly combined into one - at this point though the identity of the character is a bit less important in the grand scheme of things and she/he could be named Alexander Winters for all that it would really matter, as ultimately Lyta/Talia were more of a plot device than anything else, as such the name might be a narrative give-away as to what might come in the future that would spoil some surprises (or get fans on the edge of their seats only to hit them with a twist).

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I’d wager the Londo-G’Kar dynamic might be the straw that breaks this camel’s back.

Their early bickering and mutual antagonism was fairly central. Not just for Centauri and Narn as cultures, but for the wider feel of the show. And as we see a gradual, often grudging respect for each other begin to develop, it was a good cipher for Real World Politics, where diplomats might end up with a very different perspective to their governments in certain areas, without necessarily losing their loyalties.

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If I remember right, both Lyta and Talia left because the actresses had obligations elsewhere/took other jobs.

Patricia Tallman was in the pilot, but didn't stick around for the show, but was free to come back later after Andrea Thompson walked (apparently to CNN, for whatever reason).

I do feel like there was probably some hard feelings there, given that Talia's ultimate fate was to be both mindwiped and reprogrammed AND also butchered for spare parts off camera. (unless that was just a lie Bester made up to piss off Ivanova). The reprogramming was definitely part of the original plan, however, as Kosh made 'recordings' of her real persona 'for the future' in one of the odder episodes.

Apparently JMS liked the idea of spare backups for character concepts, which is why the show ended up with two potential super-telepaths. Which felt a little gimmicky, but worked out with the actresses moving on before things were done.

Though originally the 'mole' was going to be the XO from the pilot that Ivanova replaced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/06 17:32:37


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SoCal

Andrea Thompson was briefly married to Jerry Doyle, right? She might have left because that relationship crumbled? Jerry Doyle also had a lot to do with Michael O’Hare leaving.

   
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Yeah when you've a long running series you can never be sure that all your cast will stick around long term to retain their respective roles. Even ignoring drama and such you've got things like having a family; moving; sickness; changing circumstances etc... Loads of things that can result in them having to cut down on time or leave production.

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 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


J. Michael Straczynski, has said that the reason he decided to do a re-boot instead of a sequel is because in the years since making B5, he has grown a lot as a writer and there are many things storytelling wise that he would alter or change to tell the same story in a much better way. As a writer myself, I totally understand and can relate to this. I've had finished work that people have loved, but I look back on it years later with how much I've improved as a writer and just think, "man, I could do that so much better now." If it were anyone else helming this, I've be super weary of a re-boot, but with Straczynski at the helm, I'm all for this.

Season 1 has not aged well at all (with the expection of a few standout episodes) and the CGI can't even be charitably called good until season 3 (though I think by that point it does still more-less hold up). I'd still love to see some of the great battles re-done with current CGI.

B5 is my favorite show ever (with only Stein's;Gate ever coming close to toppling it) but it's far from perfect and I'd love to see how it's done now. My one worry is the characters. They are IMHO what make the series timeless and many I can't imagine being played by anyone else. Mira Furlan, Peter Jurasik, Andreas Katsulas, Ed Wasser, Walter Koenig, so many iconic performances. This is the one thing a re-boot MUST nail down to be successful to fans of the original I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
If I remember right, both Lyta and Talia left because the actresses had obligations elsewhere/took other jobs.

Patricia Tallman was in the pilot, but didn't stick around for the show, but was free to come back later after Andrea Thompson walked (apparently to CNN, for whatever reason).

I do feel like there was probably some hard feelings there, given that Talia's ultimate fate was to be both mindwiped and reprogrammed AND also butchered for spare parts off camera. (unless that was just a lie Bester made up to piss off Ivanova). The reprogramming was definitely part of the original plan, however, as Kosh made 'recordings' of her real persona 'for the future' in one of the odder episodes.

Apparently JMS liked the idea of spare backups for character concepts, which is why the show ended up with two potential super-telepaths. Which felt a little gimmicky, but worked out with the actresses moving on before things were done.

Though originally the 'mole' was going to be the XO from the pilot that Ivanova replaced.


Similar thing with the original actress for Na'Toth, who was IMHO a much better fit for the role.

Huh, I didn't know that about the original mole, interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/06 18:07:29


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Also, it's been now 27 years since the original series first aired. It's been 23 since the last episode aired. Releasing a sequel to a show overwhelming majority of it's potential audience never saw (or even heard of) would be...probably financially unwise? B5 is fantastic, but it's no Star Wars.
   
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Whilst Babalon 5 is really popular within geek circles, its one of those things that once you step outside of geeky groups the number of people who are even casually aware of it drops off dramatically.

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 warboss wrote:
No, this is not an out of season April Fool's joke.

https://deadline.com/2021/09/babylon-5-series-reboot-j-michael-straczynski-development-cw-1234845022/

A new version of the Emmy-winning space opera television series Babylon 5 is in the works. The CW has put in development Babylon 5, described as a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of the critically acclaimed 1990s series, from original series creator J. Michael Straczynski and Warner Bros. Television.

Written by Straczynski, the reboot revolves around John Sheridan (played by Bruce Boxleitner in the original series), an Earthforce officer with a mysterious background, who is assigned to Babylon 5, a five-mile-long space station in neutral space, a port of call for travelers, smugglers, corporate explorers and alien diplomats at a time of uneasy peace and the constant threat of war. His arrival triggers a destiny beyond anything he could have imagined, as an exploratory Earth company accidentally triggers a conflict with a civilization a million years ahead of us, putting Sheridan and the rest of the B5 crew in the line of fire as the last, best hope for the survival of the human race.


I want to hope but I think I'm more afraid. Afraid that there will be a Season One prom episode and the feud between G'kar and Lando will be either an ex-lover's quarrel or an intergalactic love triangle with them and Delenn or possibly Vir.


I expect at least a single gender swap like Starbuck suffered in BSG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I really enjoyed both DS9 and B5 and would enjoy seeing it come back or be redone.

I thnk the ships looked and look good - especially the more alien ones - Shadows, Minbari, Vorlons and the league races.

The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


Having enjoyed BSG in its orginal form I absolutely loved the modern BSG - if they did a new B5 show to the same standard that would be fantastic.



Agreed. New B5 will need a leggy blonde though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/06 20:46:45


 
   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Andrea Thompson was briefly married to Jerry Doyle, right? She might have left because that relationship crumbled? Jerry Doyle also had a lot to do with Michael O’Hare leaving.


Michael O’hare left because he developed schizophrenia and was physically unable to continue in the role. JMS offered to delay shooting of S2 to give him a chance to try and get settled with his disease, but Michael didn’t want to put other working actors on the hook.
   
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 Strg Alt wrote:
 warboss wrote:
No, this is not an out of season April Fool's joke.

https://deadline.com/2021/09/babylon-5-series-reboot-j-michael-straczynski-development-cw-1234845022/

A new version of the Emmy-winning space opera television series Babylon 5 is in the works. The CW has put in development Babylon 5, described as a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of the critically acclaimed 1990s series, from original series creator J. Michael Straczynski and Warner Bros. Television.

Written by Straczynski, the reboot revolves around John Sheridan (played by Bruce Boxleitner in the original series), an Earthforce officer with a mysterious background, who is assigned to Babylon 5, a five-mile-long space station in neutral space, a port of call for travelers, smugglers, corporate explorers and alien diplomats at a time of uneasy peace and the constant threat of war. His arrival triggers a destiny beyond anything he could have imagined, as an exploratory Earth company accidentally triggers a conflict with a civilization a million years ahead of us, putting Sheridan and the rest of the B5 crew in the line of fire as the last, best hope for the survival of the human race.


I want to hope but I think I'm more afraid. Afraid that there will be a Season One prom episode and the feud between G'kar and Lando will be either an ex-lover's quarrel or an intergalactic love triangle with them and Delenn or possibly Vir.


I expect at least a single gender swap like Starbuck suffered in BSG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I really enjoyed both DS9 and B5 and would enjoy seeing it come back or be redone.

I thnk the ships looked and look good - especially the more alien ones - Shadows, Minbari, Vorlons and the league races.

The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


Having enjoyed BSG in its orginal form I absolutely loved the modern BSG - if they did a new B5 show to the same standard that would be fantastic.



Agreed. New B5 will need a leggy blonde though.


No shortage of those! Tricia Helfer would work well

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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Uhm, I think too that those characters depicted in the new BSG were more lifelike. Also never underestimate what it means to live 24/7 in the fear of being wiped out by merciless killer robots. People just become unstable and will suffer from a magnitude of mental problems.
I was honestly a bit surprised that ONLY a single character committed suicide on screen as such abysmal conditions usually cause a higher death rate.
   
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SoCal

Sterling191 wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Andrea Thompson was briefly married to Jerry Doyle, right? She might have left because that relationship crumbled? Jerry Doyle also had a lot to do with Michael O’Hare leaving.


Michael O’hare left because he developed schizophrenia and was physically unable to continue in the role. JMS offered to delay shooting of S2 to give him a chance to try and get settled with his disease, but Michael didn’t want to put other working actors on the hook.


My understanding was that Doyle kept antagonizing O’Hare, exacerbating his condition, tried to get O’Hare fired and threatened to leave the show if O’Hare didn’t.

   
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 Strg Alt wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Uhm, I think too that those characters depicted in the new BSG were more lifelike. Also never underestimate what it means to live 24/7 in the fear of being wiped out by merciless killer robots. People just become unstable and will suffer from a magnitude of mental problems.
I was honestly a bit surprised that ONLY a single character committed suicide on screen as such abysmal conditions usually cause a higher death rate.


Perhaps a spin-off thread is better than derailing this one yet again?

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There’s no need for any gender swaps in B5, because it had plenty of decent female characters to begin with. Now it will be interesting to see who gets cast, because there’s actually a lot of the roles that are gender neutral, so there could be some shuffling (I believe in the pilot the XO was male and the Doctor female, for example). It could actually be a useful way to help break the link / comparisons to the previous cast.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.

As for leggy blonde’s, I don’t think JMS is that kind of writer / producer, but it does raise an interesting question; the original series was very limited by being a mainstream US network show, as to how dark or naughty it could get. With modern norms, it’s possible that it could be made with more mature content, which would real suit some of the darker elements of the story.

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 Jadenim wrote:
There’s no need for any gender swaps in B5, because it had plenty of decent female characters to begin with. Now it will be interesting to see who gets cast, because there’s actually a lot of the roles that are gender neutral, so there could be some shuffling (I believe in the pilot the XO was male and the Doctor female, for example). It could actually be a useful way to help break the link / comparisons to the previous cast.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.

As for leggy blonde’s, I don’t think JMS is that kind of writer / producer, but it does raise an interesting question; the original series was very limited by being a mainstream US network show, as to how dark or naughty it could get. With modern norms, it’s possible that it could be made with more mature content, which would real suit some of the darker elements of the story.


Hah! Londo used his genitals to cheat at cards, and interspecies relationships were rife. I recall G'Kar being particularly prolific with anything with a pulse in the earlier seasons.

However, I would kind of hope it doesn't go down the Game of Thrones route.

I agree that the original series had a great set of roles for all species, races and genders. I think its already well set up to get the best actor/actress for a particular role, rather than needing to crowbar anything in as such.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Tawnis wrote:
 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


J. Michael Straczynski, has said that the reason he decided to do a re-boot instead of a sequel is because in the years since making B5, he has grown a lot as a writer and there are many things storytelling wise that he would alter or change to tell the same story in a much better way. As a writer myself, I totally understand and can relate to this. I've had finished work that people have loved, but I look back on it years later with how much I've improved as a writer and just think, "man, I could do that so much better now." If it were anyone else helming this, I've be super weary of a re-boot, but with Straczynski at the helm, I'm all for this.


Yeah, its incredible how many people don't comprehend that there is no value in a spin-off/sequel/prequel of a franchise that was never that popular to begin with and has effectively been dead for 20-30 years, and that likewise with half the original cast dead and the other half in middle/old-age there are severe limits as to what can be done as a continuation of the original story. Thats before you get into the fact that with 20 years of more exprience, better technology, bigger budgets, and more creative independence, etc. JMS wants a second chance to make the show better than it was before.

My understanding was that Doyle kept antagonizing O’Hare, exacerbating his condition, tried to get O’Hare fired and threatened to leave the show if O’Hare didn’t.


More or less accurate - though to be clear Doyles desire to get O'Hare removed from the show was supposedly a sort of proto-MeToo thing (ironic considering Doyles personal political beliefs) - evidently O'Hare harassed the various women on the cast and set (including punching a female actress and telling an 18 year old hair/makeup intern that he played with himself at night while thinking about her when he was lonely). I'm sure theres a he-said/she-said thing to this and that some of these stories are exaggerated.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.


You're assuming a lot here, theres no guarantee the Centauri remaining a Roman style patriarchal monarchy and that the G'Kar/Londo dynamic will remain as it was. Rebranding/redesigning the Centauri to be less kitschy is absolutely something that has a high probability of occurring and I would be surprised if this element of the show remains unchanged.
It would also be very easy to rewrite the Londo/G'Kar storyline in a way that wasn't weird or creepy without making it weirdly sexual or romantic - and in fact if they kept Londo as a womanizing horndog type I could see that playing off well against a "feminist strong woman" type G'Kar character (think Admiral Cain from BSG as a good example) - hell they could even leave G'Kar as a womanizing horndog too and it will still work (and be true to the original character lol).

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 Jadenim wrote:
There’s no need for any gender swaps in B5, because it had plenty of decent female characters to begin with. Now it will be interesting to see who gets cast, because there’s actually a lot of the roles that are gender neutral, so there could be some shuffling (I believe in the pilot the XO was male and the Doctor female, for example). It could actually be a useful way to help break the link / comparisons to the previous cast.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.

As for leggy blonde’s, I don’t think JMS is that kind of writer / producer, but it does raise an interesting question; the original series was very limited by being a mainstream US network show, as to how dark or naughty it could get. With modern norms, it’s possible that it could be made with more mature content, which would real suit some of the darker elements of the story.


I wouldn't expect anything to be set in stone apart from the action taking place on a space station and the Vorlons and Shadows showing up at some point. So anything goes.
Therefore the Centauri Empire could be revamped as a matriarchy and Londo and G'kar gender swapped. This would of course cause a lot of drama in the fan base like Starbuck's gender swap did at the time but the actress of Kara Trace performed well. So if they should find two suitable actresses it could be accomplished.
   
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 Mr Morden wrote:


No shortage of those! Tricia Helfer would work well


I could see her being a pretty solid choice for Talia Winters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:


You're assuming a lot here, theres no guarantee the Centauri remaining a Roman style patriarchal monarchy and that the G'Kar/Londo dynamic will remain as it was. Rebranding/redesigning the Centauri to be less kitschy is absolutely something that has a high probability of occurring and I would be surprised if this element of the show remains unchanged.
It would also be very easy to rewrite the Londo/G'Kar storyline in a way that wasn't weird or creepy without making it weirdly sexual or romantic - and in fact if they kept Londo as a womanizing horndog type I could see that playing off well against a "feminist strong woman" type G'Kar character (think Admiral Cain from BSG as a good example) - hell they could even leave G'Kar as a womanizing horndog too and it will still work (and be true to the original character lol).


While they could totally go that route, I think if they kept it as is, it would be a great way to give Na'Toth an antagonist to play off of. She was (especially in the first season) very much the epitome of the strong woman (but not in a cheesy way). It was a real shame her character got sidelined when the original actress left. (Though to be fair, while Mary Kay Adams was fine, she didn't have the same flair for the character so I can see why that happened).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/07 18:58:22


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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


J. Michael Straczynski, has said that the reason he decided to do a re-boot instead of a sequel is because in the years since making B5, he has grown a lot as a writer and there are many things storytelling wise that he would alter or change to tell the same story in a much better way. As a writer myself, I totally understand and can relate to this. I've had finished work that people have loved, but I look back on it years later with how much I've improved as a writer and just think, "man, I could do that so much better now." If it were anyone else helming this, I've be super weary of a re-boot, but with Straczynski at the helm, I'm all for this.

Yeah, its incredible how many people don't comprehend that there is no value in a spin-off/sequel/prequel of a franchise that was never that popular to begin with and has effectively been dead for 20-30 years, and that likewise with half the original cast dead and the other half in middle/old-age there are severe limits as to what can be done as a continuation of the original story. Thats before you get into the fact that with 20 years of more exprience, better technology, bigger budgets, and more creative independence, etc. JMS wants a second chance to make the show better than it was before.

I am well aware that the show was less popular in the US than in Europe, and while the last 2 B5 Cons in Germany were canceled because of Covid, I would not call the franchise dead

and even with better technology, bigger budgets and more experience, there are not many shows that succeeded with a re-boot as most try to get current politics in to make a point which limits them to a specific audience and often don't age very well

so this might be ending up as a much bigger show with the first run in the US than the original was, but if it gets the cult status in Europe (with regular TV re-runs) like the original is a different story

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/07 19:21:27


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I would not call the franchise dead

It's super dead in general public consciousness. It's possibly as dead as Cameron's Avatar.

All jokes aside, the small group of fans it might have in Europe (as compared to nearly none in the US) would not be enough to keep a space opera remotely profitable, which is ultimately the goal of any show. And of course it'll be hard for the reboot to be more current-politics than the original seeing as we are still dealing with exactly the same 80s and 90s issues that B5 depicted in sci-fi setting.

But yeah, you want the show to appeal to new fans, not hope whatever remains of the fanbase is enough to carry it.
   
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There have been no new B5 episodes or spin-off series, no video games, no novels or comics, no films, etc., in about 20 years, tabletop gaming for the series went out of publication almost 15 years ago, and with that the B5 license has gone dormant (to the extent that Warner Bros does not have a licensing team for the property and is thus unable to issue licenses for it). For most of hte past decade + is been almost completely unavailable to stream or severely limited in streaming to select episodes/seasons on select platforms.

Its dead, Jim. The fact that theres a cult fanbase in Europe is irrelevant.

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The same was the case with BSG. Doesn't matter if it's dead as long as the reboot is done well and the plot addresses themes of today. New people will begin to watch the show.

Though one thing is worth mentioning: I am not remembering B5 too well but for the sake of gaining a new audience the devs should limit the amount of silly alien designs, if there were any.
I still remember the actor of Cpt. Adama say this in an interview: "As soon as the devs get the silly idea of introducing aliens into BSG I am out. I don't care how they do it but I won't be around anymore. Adama will just suffer a stroke on screen and I am gone."


   
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I wouldn't say it's alive in terms of having a thriving fanbase, but at least here in Canada, when I talk to people about sci fi shows, almost everyone has heard of B5 and most have seen it. So I would say it's I guess alive but not active, in the sense that I think there is certainly a market for it's return in whatever form it takes.

Also, (and I know that this is taking number from almost 2 decades ago) if you look at how many people watched Legend of the Ragers when it aired and consider that it aired at the same time as the freaking Superbowl, that should tell you how large of a surprisingly dedicated fanbase B5 actually has in the states.

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I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.








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by that margin the BSG franchise is dead as well

no re-run after the initial one in TV, not available on streaming, all the games available here went out of print long ago etc.

I guess this is why they are talking about a reboot of the reboot now

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trexmeyer wrote:
I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.


Don't get me wrong, B5 isn't a perfect show, one of the reasons JMS wants to do a re-boot is that he thinks that he can tell it much better now. However, I very much disagree with your assessment of the main plotline.

To site your specific examples, one of the fundamental rules of the universe that Lorien explains is that everything must be able to die. You drop a nuke on something, it still dies. From the way B5 presents things it's like there is a technological plateau (much like I imagine would exists IRL if we ever advanced that far) where you can only get so advanced. Also, by your example, when Sheridan dropped that nuke, it was amplified by a ship that was partially Vorlon, so fight fire with fire kinda thing. It took every single race in the galaxy (minus the Humans and Centari) throwing pretty much every ship they could spare into a joint fleet to essentially just bloody the Shadow's nose at the end of season 3. If that doesn't speak to how outclassed they are, I don't know what does?

As for the second bit, it's not that Sherridan called them out on the BS, I mean he did do that, but if was that he backed them into an ideological corner. Both of their beliefs were that their way was the right way and that they alone could properly nurture the lesser races; it's the entire reason why they fought. By essentially playing a galactic game of chicken, he said that they would all rather die than follow either of their examples. When they tried to silence Sherridan, assuming it would make the others back down, the entire fleet formed up around the White Star taking the hits for them and giving their lives for the cause. That's what finally convinced them that Sherridan did in fact speak for essentially everyone and that there would be no way to push their agenda without killing basically all the lesser races, which defeats the whole purpose of their roles of guardians to guide and nurture the lesser races. It was then finally Lorien, their former guide and mentor that told them he faced a similar choice when guiding them, and as he once stepped aside to allow them to grow on their own, so to must they for those they guided. That's what finally did it and I for one found that a fantastic bit of storytelling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/07 21:01:32


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 kodos wrote:
by that margin the BSG franchise is dead as well

no re-run after the initial one in TV, not available on streaming, all the games available here went out of print long ago etc.

I guess this is why they are talking about a reboot of the reboot now


Thank you for proving my point? BSG was rebooted in the mid-2000s for this exact reason. Note that its currently *not* a dead franchise as there has been a renewed licensing push over the last 3-5 years to tey to keep BSG in the public consciousness, and the upcoming "reboot" is apparently set in Ron Moores reboot timeline/universe

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trexmeyer wrote:
I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.




They left because they had 2 options. Leave knowing they archieved their mission or don't leave, go nuts, wipe everybody, fail on their mission and lose ltheir purpose.

They remembered what they had forgotten. Why they had remained for in the first place. Help younger races to evolve to level they can be trusted to go on their own way. Not wipe them out. Had they not left option was basically extermination and...then they fail their job.

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