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2022/04/01 01:29:04
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: You "should" do whatever the hell works for you. If that's painting straight from the pot, more power to you.
The challenge for the vast majority of wargamers is not painting an army to a high standard, it's actually getting an army painted at all, so I'm all for whatever makes it easier for people to get their armies done and on the table, and for some people they prefer painting directly from the pot.
What users think they want and what actually best addresses their needs don't always align.
I'll use a palette if I'm going to be painting one color for a while, like doing basecoats. For general purpose I go straight from the pot and just toss in a few drops of water at the end so its keeps consistency. Though on the other hand, much of that is because I dislike the process of putting paint from a pot to a palette and if everything was droppers I'd use it a hell of a lot more.
Generally speaking I find most painting tutorials of little value to me because they are either showing basics I already know, painting things to a higher standard than I want to do for my armies, or showcasing some get-rich-quick-esque technique about how to paint an army in 2 hours and it totally didn't take longer, honest.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/01 01:34:32
AllSeeingSkink wrote: You "should" do whatever the hell works for you. If that's painting straight from the pot, more power to you.
The challenge for the vast majority of wargamers is not painting an army to a high standard, it's actually getting an army painted at all, so I'm all for whatever makes it easier for people to get their armies done and on the table, and for some people they prefer painting directly from the pot.
What users think they want and what actually best addresses their needs don't always align.
That's an absurd position to take on painting direct from the pot. "Best addresses their needs", so what exactly are their needs that aren't being met if they choose to paint straight from the pot?
2022/04/01 01:48:57
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
AllSeeingSkink wrote:That's an absurd position to take on painting direct from the pot. "Best addresses their needs", so what exactly are their needs that aren't being met if they choose to paint straight from the pot?
Voss wrote:OK, wow. I haven't seen a variation of Blizzard at its most toxic in quite a while. That's a classic.
'You think you do but you don't.'
Okay, apparently what I took to be a self-evident truth needs explanation.
Sometimes people know the optimal process for reaching their goal. Sometimes people prefer suboptimal practices as a result of bad product design, and better product design can remove obstacles and enable them to adopt a better solution. And sometimes, yes, what people think they want and what they actually need are completely different. I'm genuinely sorry if your first exposure to this concept was Blizzard being pig-headed, Voss, but it's ground truth in product design.
So, yeah, this isn't art school, but often 'don't bother learning from instruction, just do what feels right to you' isn't going to yield the most efficient way to achieve your goals either.
In my experience, hobbyists who paint directly from the pot tend to do so either due to lack of experience, or a perception that the hassle of transferring paint from a pot to a palette via brush outweighs the benefits (as in NinthMusketeer's post above). The former GW is clearly trying to address with their tutorial videos. If the latter can be improved through pot design, then people who currently paint from the pot because transferring paint is annoying will switch, even if their current solution 'works for them'.
Are there painters who really genuinely prefer painting from the pot over using a palette, even if using a palette represented no additional inconvenience? Probably, but if they're a small minority then GW's product design really shouldn't be catering to them at the expense of everyone currently struggling to get the damn paint onto a palette one brushful (right up the ferrule) at a time.
In any case, I'd sooner expect to see paint pots that don't suck to pour from, so that both camps can be happy. Or maybe droppers for the airbrush paints. But probably not a range-wide switch to droppers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/01 06:01:32
Its a really difficult subject to try to determine what is optimal or not when it comes to painting from the pots.
Different painters want and do different things and thats fine.
This isn't an art school or people don't want to follow tutorials or any instructions is just a poor argument since, unlike in the old days that we had no internet or instructions and was a nightmare and waste of time and money to trial and error ( I still have nightmares with the tiny enamel metal pots), now you are spoiled with tutorials/information and in less than a day you can track down the paint results you want to achieve and check how its done... Ignoring all that is IMO not optimal practice.
GW sells pallets, thinners and widely advises you to thin your paints etc so its safe to assume that this is the intended use of GW paints and pots.
Besides paints have different consistencies some may need more thinning than others.
Dendarien wrote: I have quite a few P3 paints, some probably bought at least 8 years ago that have never dried out in the slightest. My GW paints all seem to die at random.
I have just a few of P3s, not very easy to get them here but I can only say good things about them. Colours are amazing and pots are airtight so they keep paints spot on.
I wish I had more.
I've got pretty much the entire P3 paint line except for the inks, they are up there with Scale75 as my favourite paints to use.
Their black, reds and skin tones are some of my most used paints (and I have a hell of a lot of paints!).
Their only paints that have seemed to lack pigment are their yellow and oranges, but that's the nature of paints in general rather than a P3 issue.
2022/04/01 09:29:01
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
It's the paint thinning argument again. Most paints need thinning, hence you need a palette. If a paint doesn't need thinning, and you're not mixing it, why bother with a palette?
2022/04/01 09:42:32
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Citadel paint pots suck. Even their plastic glue is trash. Regular super glue is far better. And Vallejo paints are also far easier to use and better. GW air brush paint in comparison is utter trash.
2022/04/03 17:45:29
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
AllSeeingSkink wrote:That's an absurd position to take on painting direct from the pot. "Best addresses their needs", so what exactly are their needs that aren't being met if they choose to paint straight from the pot?
Voss wrote:OK, wow. I haven't seen a variation of Blizzard at its most toxic in quite a while. That's a classic.
'You think you do but you don't.'
Okay, apparently what I took to be a self-evident truth needs explanation.
Sometimes people know the optimal process for reaching their goal. Sometimes people prefer suboptimal practices as a result of bad product design, and better product design can remove obstacles and enable them to adopt a better solution. And sometimes, yes, what people think they want and what they actually need are completely different. I'm genuinely sorry if your first exposure to this concept was Blizzard being pig-headed, Voss, but it's ground truth in product design.
So, yeah, this isn't art school, but often 'don't bother learning from instruction, just do what feels right to you' isn't going to yield the most efficient way to achieve your goals either.
Going to be honest, you should have lead with that (though in a far less condescending fashion than 'don't bother learning from instruction' or 'self evident truth,' for Gork's (or Mork's) sake), rather than your previous post.
In my experience, hobbyists who paint directly from the pot tend to do so either due to lack of experience, or a perception that the hassle of transferring paint from a pot to a palette via brush outweighs the benefits (as in NinthMusketeer's post above).
Great! So, maybe someone should try to establish that the hassle does outweigh the benefits.
There's been a lot of grand declarations and sweeping condemnations and... not a lot of anything of educational value.
There's a reason why I went with the Blizzard line.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/03 17:49:18
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2022/04/03 17:55:44
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Voss wrote: Going to be honest, you should have lead with that (though in a far less condescending fashion than 'don't bother learning from instruction' or 'self evident truth,' for Gork's (or Mork's) sake), rather than your previous post.
Well, AllSeeingSkink was literally saying that painters should do what 'works for them' instead of following tutorials. I tend to feel that neglecting instruction from people who know what they're doing, especially when there's such a strong consensus, is really not how you maximize your own efficiency. I've got a couple of hobbies, and in every single one I've seen at least one person swear up and down that their way 'works for them', until they actually give things a try the way the pros tell them to and find that there is some merit to the more common practice.
That said I apologize if those quips came across as condescending. Please take it more as late-night minor exasperation from my end.
In my experience, hobbyists who paint directly from the pot tend to do so either due to lack of experience, or a perception that the hassle of transferring paint from a pot to a palette via brush outweighs the benefits (as in NinthMusketeer's post above).
Great! So, maybe someone should try to establish that the hassle does outweigh the benefits.
There's been a lot of grand declarations and sweeping condemnations and... not a lot of anything of educational value.
There's a reason why I went with the Blizzard line.
Like another commenter pointed out, GW is using palettes in all of their tutorials. They directly show transferring the paint, thinning it out, and painting it that way. So, there's plenty of instruction showing you the 'right way' to paint- though I suppose not on the level of outlining the exact reasons, because then they start to invite questions like 'so if palettes are so great, why do your pots suck so much for using them?'. Honestly, GW's messaging is I think a little too corporate; a video talking about how easy it is to spill an open pot of paint and why you should instead transfer it to a palette would seem rather out of character to me.
But going back to my comment about product design, a big part of UX is also about designing products that intrinsically help educate your users about the right ways to use them and make it as painless as possible to do so, rather than telling them what to do and expecting them to make a painful transition or take a leap of faith. If GW wants people to use palettes, the right way to do that isn't to just tell you that you should be using a brush to transfer paint to a palette, it's to also make it as easy to use a palette as possible.
I'm thinking that including a little square of palette paper with every paint pot would be overkill, but there could be some merit to a 'buy [X] bottles of paint, get a free palette pad' scheme. That way new painters who are just getting spun up are already getting a palette just by buying their initial set. And of course, dropper bottles rather than pots make the transfer process tremendously easier, but a pot design with an integral pour spout could be a compromise. Or maybe a fat dropper bottle that threads in the middle, so it's easy to infer how it's meant to be used (it's a dropper), but still allowing you to open it up if need be.
Point being, with a better paint pot they wouldn't need to put out PSAs explaining why palettes are useful or showing how to properly get paint onto one. I mean, while I always like to see explanatory material, it's 2022; the general rule of thumb is that if a user needs to pull out a manual or go to Youtube to figure out how to use your product, you've already failed.
Voss wrote: Going to be honest, you should have lead with that (though in a far less condescending fashion than 'don't bother learning from instruction' or 'self evident truth,' for Gork's (or Mork's) sake), rather than your previous post.
Well, AllSeeingSkink was literally saying that painters should do what 'works for them' instead of following tutorials.
I'm pretty sure I was saying that people tend to not (and shouldn't feel compelled to) follow tutorials rigidly, instead using what they find useful rather than trying to follow them verbatim.
I've learned heaps of stuff from tutorials over the years, I don't think I've ever actually followed one though.
And of course people should do what works for them, it's absurd to think otherwise. The only time it's worth interjecting and telling someone they're doing something wrong is when they might hurt themselves/someone else by doing it "wrong" or it's plainly obvious they are trying to achieve something and aren't going to reach that goal with their current method. That's why I asked "what is their needs that aren't being met"?
Obviously if someone is struggling with the paint coming out chunky and too thick, you'd advise that person to try using a palette and play around with thinning solve that problem, but I've met people who have no trouble with producing results they are happy with whilst still painting direct from the pot, and occasionally I do it myself.
I'll probably be horribly admonished for saying this, but thinning your paint isn't actually super important for painting miniatures*** Most hobby paints are ballpark the right consistency already and in the grand scheme of things you don't lose a lot for not thinning. The old meme of the space marine with so much paint on his face that you can't see the detail isn't actually a *thinning* problem, it's a *quantity* problem. Half the thinning you do on a dry palette is just overcoming the evaporation you are getting while moving the paint around rather than it being a terrible consistency out of the pot. Now of course two thin coats better than one avoid brush streaks blah blah blah, but if you're looking for the most bang for your buck in terms of getting decent looking models on the table quickly, painting unthinned isn't the end of the world *assuming* the painter understands what it feels like when paint genuinely becomes too thick and gluggy to apply smoothly and can compensate accordingly.
***Of course qualifying that statement with "table top quality" miniatures. That said though, I painted this lass with entirely unthinned oils and I'm pretty happy with how she came out as a display model, I don't think you'll find too many tutorials telling you that you should paint with unthinned oils, but hey, it "worked for me"...
Probably, but if they're a small minority then GW's product design really shouldn't be catering to them at the expense of everyone currently struggling to get the damn paint onto a palette one brushful (right up the ferrule) at a time.
Firstly, I'm not convinced they are a small minority because I see such people all the time in the local hobby stores, and secondly those other people can just buy the droppers made by half a dozen other companies. Why would we want homogeneity in our different painting options?
Also the *correct* way to remove paint from a pot isn't to use your brush and get paint up the ferrule Someone needs to watch some tutorials and follow them rigidly on how to correctly remove paint from their pots!
Hell, go over to some scale model forums on airbrushing and they'll tell you that you shouldn't be dropping paint straight into your airbrush cup anyway, and instead use a stirrer potentially in a completely separate cup. On many levels they're right... doesn't stop me from squirting paint straight into my airbrush cup
I mean this whole thing is just an absurd discussion, if people prefer pots to droppers I have no problem with that. I personally don't really care either way, pros and cons and all that. I've heard lots of "it's the wrong way to do it" and not a lot of compelling reasons why someone should feel, well, compelled to not do it.
The most compelling reason I have for not painting directly from the pot is in summer my room gets so hot and dry that paint will start noticeably drying in the pot itself, but most people don't let their houses get to 30-40°C so I'm guessing that's not an issue for most other folk
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/04 04:58:04
2022/04/04 04:54:12
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Point being, with a better paint pot they wouldn't need to put out PSAs explaining why palettes are useful or showing how to properly get paint onto one. I mean, while I always like to see explanatory material, it's 2022; the general rule of thumb is that if a user needs to pull out a manual or go to Youtube to figure out how to use your product, you've already failed.
Thank you for demonstrating the surreal absurdity which results when someone applies the company store mentality to painting.
Please don't learn how to paint from a company store.
2022/04/04 14:10:11
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
catbarf wrote: Like another commenter pointed out, GW is using palettes in all of their tutorials. They directly show transferring the paint, thinning it out, and painting it that way. So, there's plenty of instruction showing you the 'right way' to paint- though I suppose not on the level of outlining the exact reasons, because then they start to invite questions like 'so if palettes are so great, why do your pots suck so much for using them?'. Honestly, GW's messaging is I think a little too corporate; a video talking about how easy it is to spill an open pot of paint and why you should instead transfer it to a palette would seem rather out of character to me.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2022/04/04 14:19:12
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Do wish they wouldn't thin their paints with the same water they wash out their brushes in though... I keep 2 water pots - one for washing out brushes, and one pot of clean water used only for thinning paints.
2022/04/04 15:40:08
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
So unless you are using a brand that is “straight from the pot” then no, you are doing it wrong. Even if you are new. If you take anything from a tutorial, it should be use a pallet. If you are starting out, thinning your paint and using a pallet should be lesson number one. It looks better and is easier to paint with.
As for using paints from the pot on smaller models, 10mm. I would thin less and want a thicker consistency for smaller models to aid control to an extent.
2022/04/04 22:16:18
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Andykp wrote: All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
Except washes and contrast which get used a lot.
2022/04/04 22:58:32
Subject: Re:Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Andykp wrote: All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
Except washes and contrast which get used a lot.
And get contaminated very easily.
But I've learned here that there is no better or best way. If a painter is fine with using a downward stabbing motion to jam paint onto minis, then it's more than just their preference...it's also what's best and cannot be improved upon, and no one should say otherwise.
Andykp wrote: All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
God forbid someone use something in the way it wasn't designed to be used!
That's by far the most convincing reason I've heard so far. </sarcasm>
I'd also contend that most mini paints are prethinned to the point where they're largely fine being used unthinned, though I'm not going to try and get in the head of the designer to figure out exactly what they were thinking when they designed them, but I assume it was to get them in the ballpark of the correct consistency out of the pot. In fact it's a complaint I've heard a few times over the years, that many hobby paints are too thin out of the pot and that makes them hard to use in techniques that prefer thicker paint. If we're talking about artists acrylics, yeah, they have a paste-like consistency and need to be thinned in order to flow.
Andykp wrote: So unless you are using a brand that is “straight from the pot” then no, you are doing it wrong. Even if you are new. If you take anything from a tutorial, it should be use a pallet. If you are starting out, thinning your paint and using a pallet should be lesson number one. It looks better and is easier to paint with.
And what if you're experienced and still do it
New painters are the ones I would tell to use a palette because it makes it easier to learn how to paint. But there's blokes who have been painting for decades and are perfectly happy with the results they are getting that paint from the pot.
Maybe I've missed it, but I'm still yet to see an actual compelling reason why someone shouldn't paint from the pot if it aligns with their painting style. "It wasn't designed to be used that way!", "That's how it's done in the tutorials!" and "It's wrong!" are not compelling reasons. "Paint should be thinned" is a more compelling reason, but even that is far from a hard and fast rule and there's plenty of times painting unthinned works perfectly fine.
I'm really not sure why people are being so ardent about needing to use a palette when they also can't come up with good reasons, or perhaps are so shallow in their thinking that they genuinely believe "because it was done that way in tutorials" is actually a good reason.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/04/05 09:55:56
2022/04/05 10:14:04
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
It depends what you're doing. If I just need to paint a black dot for an eye I'll grab a GW pot and grab a tiny bit of paint, wipe it off on the lid and dot it on. I'm not going to put in on my wet palette first. Same for if I'm doing tiny bright sharp highlights. If I want that sharp contrast then I'll go direct from the pot. In those circumstances, I definitely waste less paint than squeezing the tiniest amount I can from the a dropper bottle onto a palette.
If I want my colours more transparent, so the highlights blend in more, then obviously I'd thin the paints.
I'm baffled that there are "purists" on either side of this that can't see it both ways. I'm not saying you *need* pots: you can still put a bit of paint onto a dry palette for that sort of painting, it's just slightly more inconvenient and uses more paint. Just like it's slightly more inconvenient to get a larger quantity of a base colour onto your palette with pots.
2022/04/05 11:09:08
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
I might not be the greatest painter, but in a way, I always paint directly from the pot. Or rather, I store all my paints in droppers and keep a working supply in microcentrifuge tubes (usually 1.5 ml). I never have things like contamination, don't have issues with paint drying out, and can paint just the way I like it. Sure, it might not be up to some higher standards, but I'm not interested in achieving such things. I just want minis that look good enough from a distance.
Everything with palettes and the like sounds like something that only really helps those aiming for higher levels. For those of us who don't, why should we worry about it at all?
Andykp wrote: All this “I paint straight from the pot and it’s fine” stuff, or “just do what works best for you” is rubbish. The fact is the vast majority of acrylic paints we use are designed to used on a pallet and thinned. It is how they are designed. Not doing so is literally using the wrong, as in not how they are designed to be used.
God forbid someone use something in the way it wasn't designed to be used!
That's by far the most convincing reason I've heard so far. </sarcasm>
I'd also contend that most mini paints are prethinned to the point where they're largely fine being used unthinned, though I'm not going to try and get in the head of the designer to figure out exactly what they were thinking when they designed them, but I assume it was to get them in the ballpark of the correct consistency out of the pot. In fact it's a complaint I've heard a few times over the years, that many hobby paints are too thin out of the pot and that makes them hard to use in techniques that prefer thicker paint. If we're talking about artists acrylics, yeah, they have a paste-like consistency and need to be thinned in order to flow.
Andykp wrote: So unless you are using a brand that is “straight from the pot” then no, you are doing it wrong. Even if you are new. If you take anything from a tutorial, it should be use a pallet. If you are starting out, thinning your paint and using a pallet should be lesson number one. It looks better and is easier to paint with.
And what if you're experienced and still do it
New painters are the ones I would tell to use a palette because it makes it easier to learn how to paint. But there's blokes who have been painting for decades and are perfectly happy with the results they are getting that paint from the pot.
Maybe I've missed it, but I'm still yet to see an actual compelling reason why someone shouldn't paint from the pot if it aligns with their painting style. "It wasn't designed to be used that way!", "That's how it's done in the tutorials!" and "It's wrong!" are not compelling reasons. "Paint should be thinned" is a more compelling reason, but even that is far from a hard and fast rule and there's plenty of times painting unthinned works perfectly fine.
I'm really not sure why people are being so ardent about needing to use a palette when they also can't come up with good reasons, or perhaps are so shallow in their thinking that they genuinely believe "because it was done that way in tutorials" is actually a good reason.
I must admit I was being a bit arsey last night and came over more militant than I am really, I am ardent about using a pallet because it is, easier, produces better results, allows more control over consistency of paint, volume of colour, effect of the paint in the model. By using straight from the pot or bottle, you lose any control over the properties of the paint bed you are basically colouring in, but you are also making life harder for your self as the paint flows less well and and is harder to control and produces less pleasing results. If you just want to colour your models in, you are still better off thinning your paints.
As the paints are designed to be thinned, what is a reason not to thin them? Saying it suits your style is fine but very few painters who don’t thin their paints have a style they have given any thought to, or have much understand of how they are manipulating the properties of their paints bumpy using them neat. They are just being lazy, but actually making life harder for them selves.
I had a friend who would not use a pallet but struggled to paint, as soon as I got him thinning his paints he was so much happier, he admitted that the paint went on easier and everything he found frustrating about painting was eased.
2022/04/05 11:20:54
Subject: Games Workshop - color range swiching from pots to bottles?
Dolnikan wrote: I might not be the greatest painter, but in a way, I always paint directly from the pot. Or rather, I store all my paints in droppers and keep a working supply in microcentrifuge tubes (usually 1.5 ml). I never have things like contamination, don't have issues with paint drying out, and can paint just the way I like it. Sure, it might not be up to some higher standards, but I'm not interested in achieving such things. I just want minis that look good enough from a distance.
Everything with palettes and the like sounds like something that only really helps those aiming for higher levels. For those of us who don't, why should we worry about it at all?
It's not just about standards though, it's about ease/speed. Sometimes it's quicker and easier to use a palette too.
Like, one of the worst pieces of advice I got when I started painting was "don't buy nice brushes, they're expensive and you'll ruin them". I mean, that's true for 5 minutes until you've learned not to get paint in the ferrule and to clean them afterwards, but for the first year I ended up using Army Painter and GW brushes untill I finally went, "let's see how expensive these expensive Windsor and Newton brushes are". Oh, seven quid. Less than the cost of most stuff I'm painting. And they made painting *so* much easier. I'm not sure they made the end result better but they made it so much easier and more enjoyable. And given the cost of everything else in the hobby, were hardly expensive.
If you've tried a bunch of different things and found the one that works for you that's great but equally if you've never tried a palette it might also be worth trying. But then I find experimenting with new techniques and stuff fun in and of itself. That's part of the fun for me. If it's not I get sticking with what you know.
Most hobby paints are ballpark the right consistency already and in the grand scheme of things you don't lose a lot for not thinning. The old meme of the space marine with so much paint on his face that you can't see the detail isn't actually a *thinning* problem, it's a *quantity* problem. Half the thinning you do on a dry palette is just overcoming the evaporation you are getting while moving the paint around rather than it being a terrible consistency out of the pot. Now of course two thin coats better than one avoid brush streaks blah blah blah, but if you're looking for the most bang for your buck in terms of getting decent looking models on the table quickly, painting unthinned isn't the end of the world *assuming* the painter understands what it feels like when paint genuinely becomes too thick and gluggy to apply smoothly and can compensate accordingly.
Someone needs to watch some tutorials and follow them rigidly on how to correctly remove paint from their pots! 
