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Dr.Marmalade wrote:
I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.

It's literally wasted points.

You can pay: 80pts for 10 Pinks, 100pts for 20 Blues, and 60pts for 20 Brimstones (240pts) for 50 Bodies, or you can pay 150pts 50 Brimstones and be guaranteed to have 50 bodies, because they won't refuse to split if they lose morale.

Split is bad because of how expensive it is. It is always more efficient to simply run the maximum amount of the weakest version.

Dr.Marmalade wrote:
I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.

I can see it working with total saturation and points values, however I play Power Levels and only have twenty pinkies - and the only way to make blues and brims fit into Matched Play rules is to pay five Reinforcement power to bring in one or two of them :/

Can’t even try brimstone swarms, since they’re priced as pinkies

Dr.Marmalade wrote:
I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.

I'm gonna need something more than anecdotal evidence from one guy that goes against every bit of logic, math, and public opinion out there. For the single cost of a squad of 10 pinks with split (so 30 wounds) I can get 53 wounds and have the ability to separate them around 5 squads with brimstones.

Pink horrors have shots, yes, you can make that arguement, but the shots are bad and need a buff to be useful.
Blue horrors have literally nothing going for them, brimstones are even better in melee given that the extra attack is better since you probly need a 6 to wound anyway.

I use blue horror splitting in my army over 6 units of 5 blue/ 5 brimstones, I consider it a 60 point tax for not owning another 30 Brimstones which would cost like 60-100 dollars...


Right now I use pink horrors along with flamers for the same reason: To eat the points left when I take out magnus/heralds because i'm not playing competitive.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Do you hate CP or something?

That's 6 CP...

I'm hoping for 1 round... maaaybe 2 round of that CSM slaanesh double-shooting strategem. The rest of the CPs, I'd just use for re-rolls.

1 HQ and you have a battalion

How you figure that?

Also, that Spearhead detachment has to be a CSM... so that I can use that double-shot strategem.

Trancefate wrote:
We definitely need a codex. Given popularity I guess we would get ours last? however we are in serious need of one. About 2/3 of our units are not worth taking in any kind of competitive list, 1/2 if you wanna play it conservative.

The issue is compounded by the fact that we are in many instances encouraged to take mono-daemon lists.... It boils down to armies that can only be built out of a handful of units.

Looks like we're getting our codex in time for Christmas

JakeSiren wrote:

Trancefate wrote:
We definitely need a codex. Given popularity I guess we would get ours last? however we are in serious need of one. About 2/3 of our units are not worth taking in any kind of competitive list, 1/2 if you wanna play it conservative.

The issue is compounded by the fact that we are in many instances encouraged to take mono-daemon lists.... It boils down to armies that can only be built out of a handful of units.

Looks like we're getting our codex in time for Christmas

Nope, first one of 2018 apparently.

Ah really? Well that's still not bad. I'll just wait impatiently until then.

*Edit*
Just want to double check, does this mean this info wasn't 100%? Is there a summary somewhere that is more accurate?

*Edit*Edit*
Ok, just found this which confirms what you said.

I hope they scrap the current Tzeentch spell entirely and just make a new one. Maybe Treason can stay.

I think the biggest problem with Tzeentch is that we pay for psykers that can cast 2+ powers, but due to the limitations in matched play can't use all of their power outside of very small points. Bolt of change is OK as a power, but needs a WCV drop IMO (basically a smite that can target characters)

Boon is kinda terrible and is unreliable. I would like to see it do all 3 for the unit.

For treason I would like to see some leadership debuffs in the daemons army to give it some better utility. I think all we have is Be'Lakor. As it stands we have a ~41% chance to cast the power, by a (assuming ld10) 8% to roll over the enemies leadership making it a less than 3.5% chance of successfully going off. The enemy being in range of Be'Lakor makes that a ~7% chance. Re-rolls make it slightly better with a 14.6% chance, but still not enough to count on getting it off once a game.

The last thing I want at all is for Tzeentch to involve morale. Give that to Slaanesh. Tzeentch needs the ability to cast spells, or have a unique "cantrip" spell each unit can use equal to their spells. Flickering Fire so to speak. Lose 3 casts and do 3x effective or something.

They're literally magic given physical form, if they get less spells than Eldar it's a huge kick in the giblets.

Make things interact with rolls, cause some chaos, make Herald's give a useful buff, make screamers actually either a powerful melee unit, or give it some kind of unique aura/ability. Let Exalted Flamers/Flamers be used as conduits for attacks like in Sigmar.

Don't just gut what they are. They're wizards. Let the only actual wizard army be goddamn wizards.

Dr.Marmalade wrote:
I can't believe nobody likes the split rule. It is very good. I have played around a dozen tournament and practice games with my splitting list and it has never lost. Bigger isn't always better. It's never wasted points if you force people to shoot pinks as it is literally all they can target.

8+5+3 = 16pts(cost of a pink splitting down to a brim) for 3 wounds

16pts = 5 brimstones giving you 5 wounds

More wounds + bigger footprint for objectives and screening is why I always takes brim sqauds with one blue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
The last thing I want at all is for Tzeentch to involve morale. Give that to Slaanesh. Tzeentch needs the ability to cast spells, or have a unique "cantrip" spell each unit can use equal to their spells. Flickering Fire so to speak. Lose 3 casts and do 3x effective or something.

They're literally magic given physical form, if they get less spells than Eldar it's a huge kick in the giblets.

Make things interact with rolls, cause some chaos, make Herald's give a useful buff, make screamers actually either a powerful melee unit, or give it some kind of unique aura/ability. Let Exalted Flamers/Flamers be used as conduits for attacks like in Sigmar.

Don't just gut what they are. They're wizards. Let the only actual wizard army be goddamn wizards.

Right? Its literally a psyker army, if they don't give us some form of psyker dominance I'mma be mad

I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.

They are one of the worst units in the game. Stop spreading missinformation.

This is a tactics thread. Not a single major tournament list that does even OK has a bloodthirster. The entire SoCal had no khorne units period.

yes korne is really bad right now, in 2nd place i put slaanesh.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
I like Bloodthirsters! Sure, only two of the three are useful, but they can absolutely shred heavy infantry/tanks. Heck, they can rip super heavys to shreds, which is more than most units can say.

They are one of the worst units in the game. Stop spreading missinformation.

This is a tactics thread. Not a single major tournament list that does even OK has a bloodthirster. The entire SoCal had no khorne units period.

Tactics don't just apply to major tournaments, you salty cheese monger Play what you wanna play, enjoy what you wanna play.

Out of the games i've brought Khorne Daemons to my local area, they've never not pulled weight.

I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

 vaklor4 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.

Which is totally fine.

However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.

Which is totally fine.

However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.

Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.

There's no reason to take a LoC or Fateweaver when Magnus exists. Even stock in Magnus is going down with each new codex release. Heck, even Kronos Tyranids can shut out daemon monstrous creatures with just a single strategem (their artifact helps too).

I'm sure someone, somewhere has used them. Competitively? Absolutely not.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm sure someone, somewhere has used them. Competitively? Absolutely not.

Early on in 8th I saw LoC used in Daemon lists, but I havent had the time to look into the newer stuff post-AM codex

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm sure someone, somewhere has used them. Competitively? Absolutely not.

Early on in 8th I saw LoC used in Daemon lists, but I havent had the time to look into the newer stuff post-AM codex

Well, I'm in the top 10-15 or so of Ranked Daemon players in North America, and I can assure you they're not being used by anyone that I've ever heard of.

In defense of Bloodthirsters, I like them too.

They have pretty models and ensure games are streamlined, very much in keeping with the spirit of 8th edition. I bring a Supreme Allied Command with five of them to ensure games end in less than an hour.

End sarcasm mode.

The 8th edition Daemons Codex is rumored to be the first one being released in 2018. Hoping this leads to new playstyles, too many Magnus + a ton of Horrors lists right now.

What would you do specifically to improve Greater Daemons in the new Codex?

The conversations I've had always center around Deep Strike, which I think would actually not do much. Coming in 9 inches away from an opponent is great, but a smart opponent is going to position their forces so that all you are charging is the chaff. The fact they have so many wounds means they are always going to be targets, so it's not like you can move them up the board like other ICs.

I hate to say this, but I think 8th edition mechanics make it impossible to be successful with Greater Daemons. There might not be a way for a Codex to solve all the problems we see with them. Maybe if they had twice the movement, maybe if they had Deep Strike, maybe if they could automatically ignore AP modifiers... but it's too much to even consider with where they are now.

Not rumored; confirmed by GW. First Codex of 2018.

I don't even think there's anything wrong with Magnus and tons of horrors, it's just the ONLY viable all daemon option available; the priority should be improving everything else to compete with that.

How to improve the Greater Daemons? Either drop them to, realistically, only be slightly more than Daemon Princes (See 220ish), or buff them to be twice what they are now.

14-16W, T7, and only 4-7 Attacks with 2 Psychic powers (that are awful) at not worth 360pts. I could just take 5 Exalted Flamers and have an infinitely more survivable and powerful choice for less points.

Deep strike should be given to Greater Lords, at least the winged ones. If a Hive Tyrant can deep strike in, so can my giant bird.

They need to be more specialized. Slaanesh needs to be very, very fast and potentially impact morale. Khorne needs to hit very hard. Nurgle needs to be very, very resilient and for the love of Tzeentch my Lords of Change need to be able to cast good, powerful spells.

 vaklor4 wrote:


Tactics don't just apply to major tournaments, you salty cheese monger Play what you wanna play, enjoy what you wanna play.

This comment is beyond silly.

Dictionary definition of tactics: "an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end."

I think it was kind of implied that WINNING was that specific end.

If you wanna take units cause they make you all warm and fuzzy and emotional inside that's cool, you do you. This is a tactics thread, spreading straight up WRONG information does nothing but hurt the army. Enough people like you say something like "Lolol Bloodthirsterz is gud GW me likey!!" and now they don't get changed for codex and the players who build their armies to be competitive will have shelved units for the next god knows how many years.

Do you guys think summoning could be fixed by just removing the "if you moved you can't summon" part of the rules? Basically giving deamons deep strike but you need a charecter to pull it off like a homing Beacon? Maybe even add "pass a leadership test on the charecter who is your Beacon, if failed can't be used as a Beacon for remanded of turn"?

Otherwise I just don't see deamons as anything but either a fluff army or as part of a chaos army as back in the day.

Though in a chaos army nurgle with fleshy abundance is amazing on helldrakes / forgefiends / maulerfiends.

I don't think it would help very much. There's just very little benefit to ever not include the models in your army, instead of summoning them. Very rarely worth it.

Azuza001 wrote:
Do you guys think summoning could be fixed by just removing the "if you moved you can't summon" part of the rules? Basically giving deamons deep strike but you need a charecter to pull it off like a homing Beacon? Maybe even add "pass a leadership test on the charecter who is your Beacon, if failed can't be used as a Beacon for remanded of turn"?

Otherwise I just don't see deamons as anything but either a fluff army or as part of a chaos army as back in the day.

Though in a chaos army nurgle with fleshy abundance is amazing on helldrakes / forgefiends / maulerfiends.

The problem seems to be a little more complex than restrictions around moving. Sure, I would be happy having a character stand still if I knew the summoning would work, 100% of the time.

Saying this because deep strike is now automatic. Summoning is inferior by comparison because a) it's dependent on a summoning roll and b) most of what you can summon (i.e. bloodletters) are not terribly good.

To fix it, I would simply remove the summoning roll and allow any Daemon to be summoned. Maybe you still need a character to differentiate it from deep strike, but this would bring the summoning rolls on par with similar mechanics in the game.

Alternately, I would replace summoning with Deep Strike. Easy, streamlined, in the spirit of 8th edition.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I play against my five year old son. My Khorne is crushing. Best army. GW should nerf it /s

I'm happy to point out when RVD is being salty, this isn't one of those moments. He's being realistic. If the argument is, "I play casually and--" then it isn't an argument. The value of any model, from a casual perspective, is not based on tactic but purely upon ones personal opinion of them.

Which is totally fine.

However, as it stands, Greater Daemons are some of the worst models probably in the game right now.

Isnt Lord ot Change used in Tzeetch Daemon lists? I understand the point youre making, but im fairly certain LoC is an exception to the other 3.

Not LoC, people bring aetaos'rau'keres (the super LoC from fw) alongside malefic Lord spam.

As much as I loved my thirster model people are Right, greater demons are trash. Look no further than gulliman for proof, he costs roughly the same and defines lists by himself. Yes he's op so maybe not the best comparison but they don't even hold a candle. It's kind of a joke how bad most demons are(exceptions to every rule).

As for khorne in general, bloodletters are the only thing I've used to some success and that wasnt even in my list, just an option to summon v melee alpha strikes as a kick back. 7 pt bodies with power swords is pretty good, they just lack delivery systems.