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I think the discussion we're having is great! While certainly some folks have proven that some things work, I think it's terrible if we all end up netlisting something.

While I personally love MSS cause I use my necrons in more of an assault type unit like D.lords and such, I can see how like large groups of foot warriors would be difficult to charge and so it'd be kind of useless to have MSS in there as you're depending on other units to take care of the counter charge. It's definately a different view point. I'm confused however as to why I'd have a lord in there in the first place though as I don't see him doing much in that kind of warrior block. Is it to just add in something with 2+ save to tank shots and take advantage of ever living and ghost ark rezing models instead of just warriors?

My personal viewpoint of GK weakness so far anyway have always been that we're:

#1 weak to return fire as we have low numbers - supplementing with big fire magnets and number of bodies tends to help
#2 no active psy defense - just all passive but it's kind of hard to stop other units buffing like crazy outside of mindstrike missles
#3 low numbers of long range AP 1-2 weapons , plasma henchmen is about all we got/servitors and the storm raven unless you go land raider and I'd hardly call 1-2 units enough for saturation
#4 Low volume of AP3 weapons and low number of large blast/cover denying attacks
#5 lack of survivable transports so we tend to be quite slow now a days unless you deep strike most things.
#6 Assault capabilities are just really medium when you really play them on the field outside our paladins/purifiers as we lack fleet/number of attacks/and really vulnerable to shooting/overwatch due to low numbers again.

As far as most difficult to overcome weakness, I think #1 is the biggest problem and often ties into #6. Survivable bodies on the ground is rough. It's actually gotten somewhat worse as I've seen alot of damage thrown out by chaos lists now with like 2 baleflamers going to town on my gunlines. Unless I got a skyshield, I'm kind of hosed. We don't often have the points to spare for full on sacrifical units like guard/nids/crons/chaos.

Allies selection for me usually has to fill some of this stuff. And no, henchmen just don't cut it. The low leadership and T3 in this environment of lots of enfeeblemens and flamers is not survivable really. If we had some sort of ATSKNF or get back to the fight mechanic, then I'd be fine with Ld8. Otherwise, they behave more often like firewarriors at long range and I've lost many a groups to the table edge.

#2 really has a tough time for us as there really isn't an ally that won't shut down our own powers too. Space wolves might be helpful if you don't mind the 24' range but at least it's something

#3 not that big a deal frankly as I always believed in volume after our psybolt dreads showed up though a str 10 rail gun vs a chaos daemon prince is really really nice lol.

#4 This wasn't really on my radar at first but I've noticed a big shift to MEQ foot in the meta lately and the baleflamer really has made me wish we had more of this stuff. It's just greed for the most part but man is it powerful. Our incinerators work well enough for xenos armies but I really feel like I see too much 3+ armor lately.

#5 For some reason I've been loving drop pods lately. Modrak sorta counts as one too. Night scythes also come to mind due to invasion beam. Heck, even valkyries in numbers sort of works or just outflank things. We don't have nearly as much flexibility in this as we're kind of tied into deep striking. Servo skulls sort of helps but most people have wised up to them and just eleminate them with some fast attack choices. Personal teleporters are really expensive but does sort of work on the DK. I'd not really depend on my interceptors much though. Since I've been play Tau lately, I've also grown rather fond of 3+ cover tanks lol. Really really tough nut to crack.

#6 After trying out a few games with subbed in wraithwing, it's been pretty fun to have HOW/rerolling charge distance. Our paladins and purifiers really don't have much in this regard. And frankly the way we kit them out now a days, they are more like mobile gun boats with some good coutner attack capabilities. While assault really has taken a back seat this edition, I've still managed to find a place for it. Vs nids for example, a gunline will easily be rushed by lots of gaunts with a venomtrope providing cover across the board. One DK flamer template isn't enough to stop it in general. 2, maybe but still difficult in some ways. JY2's target saturation still works this edition it just doesn't involve the barge overlord as often but still is effective with the right balance.

So I spent the last 2hrs reading what eveyone had to say and you've all answered my major question( So how much money is GW forcing me to pull out to update to 6th ed standards? xD).

The answer: alot

It seems pretty clear that henchman unless running drago have become a must as, we need objective campers and more over we need people on the ground. and more over we need ranged fire.
my first tourney listl http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/492858.page l ever played was this one last week which before hand in 5th edition was outstanding was murdered.

I'd like to share my findings which do reinforce/ come into unison with yours and my solutions from your findings and mine.

GM
ehhh. lot a points to get a lascannon to the face and die with. happened but yea he's awight for grandstrategy for scoring I presume.

SR's
I Love em, they are supposed to fly around and drop gak off and blow gak up but haha, that's exactly what it doesn't do. Everyone seems to think the are survivable but that really isn't the case, at least in my findings. SR, unless your takin 2 don't take any. Nobody allows free roam of flyers as most list at the tourney had a ADL, or some kind of flyers (More flyers than us) or, some sort to combat them. The SR is too much for what it brings to the table if( it survives the next turn to do anything at that) 205pts for 2 weapons 240ish for a HB upgrade is just too many points spent if your going for an anti flyer apporach. Even if your not It's alot of points for a model that can easily be shot out by more stronger flyer armies. Necs, guard, (literally every list I played against had an ADL so people must be learning) I'm not saying don't take em. I'm just giving a heads up for anyone thinking one SR is going to be enough/ going to do them well, It's not.

conclusion: take two or take none.

Dk's
Unless your taking two don't taken em xD. Yea similiar situation here is that they are the first thing targeted and the first thing to go down. more people have dedicated units for taking them down whether it be snipers/ las/ or plasma but, all together T6 looks good on paper but, at the end of the day it doesn't do anything when it dies on shunt/ does nothinng when the DK is dead after wards.

conclusion: take two or take none.

Need for Ranged troops of some sort is a must
Lack of range is the bane of this army now. Like simply put, a dreadnought is good by all means for popping transports but, it doesn't seem like a fair trade off to shoot a rhino and lose your dreadnought from AV Fire. plus that's first Blood as so many of you have pointed out. Simply put any army like IG/Tau/ or SW will massacre us at range if we continue to result to dreads as our main still

conclusion: In agreeance for henchman all the way. 8 psychers with 5 acolyte for additional wounds in one unit and a 3man pc and a 5 man henchman unit works wonders on range. plenty of templates to carry out hordes/ plenty of AP to deal with marines. In unison with srevos for reduced scatter. I belileve these 2 units will probably become the new LR source of firepower in a pure GK army anyways.

GK SS's
man oh man do these guys need a transport to block line of site or something. Once these guys go down to half strength pretty much count these guys out unless your going against a similiar opponent with low body counts because, getting behind on the body count after already being behind is just an uphill battle that short of paladins, is just very/ too hard to win.

conclusion: get rhinos for your transports, there gonna blow up but I;m telling you now I'd rather lose a 40 point marine so to speak lilke previosuly stated than half my gk unit.

Purifiers

I'd say that unless your running a paladin squad with 4 psycannons and a quisi already/ this squad SHOULD go in everyone's llist. Why? quisi with 4 psycannons with ADL quad gun and str 5 bolters wand str 7 psycannons means( No flyers For U ) Really, I'm not kidding this unit is just amazing. expensive but, amazing. They fill som many roles. They can most certainly tank out a horde unit have plenty of anti tank and I'd argue probably the best anti flyer unit in the game as long as prescience goes off unscaved. Straight up, while I don't have an ADL with quad gun yet, 4 psycannons have yet to fail killing off flyers for me. adding a quad gun with soem cover is just extra icing on the cake.

Conclusion: well obviously you don't have to have them, I just highly and very much recommend them xD

Coteaz
I don't leave home without out him anymore to say?

From all these findings and your findings as well I've constructed one last list that I plan n playing at the next tournament

Hq

Coteaz

Quisi
psycher, 3 servos

Elites

Purifiers x 10
4 psycannons
5 halberds
dh
psybolts

Troops

10 Gk
2 pscyannons
psybolts
dh
rhino

10 Gk
2 psycannons
psybolts
dh
rhino

2 crusaders
1 warrioracolyte

8 sanctioned psychers
5 warrior acolyte

3 PC servitors
5 warrior acolyte

Heavy Support

Dk
tele, hi

Dk
Hpsycannon

I went with with the crusader idea for holding the backyard objective idea will deffinitely free up my main force from having to split a unit of gk making them practically useless. So they can sit back there and go out to get it when time is called for and I have a rhino for them to sit in if it's in the open, 2 of them, although hopefully I can use those for my acutall gk

Took the sure anti flyer unit of coteaz with the purifiers on the quad gun( ain't nobody comin round here xD)

Got the long range henchmen either behind the ADL or in ruins provided there are some to give better line of site.

quisi to go with the servo squad in addition to the servos he provides for reducing scatter on the field.

I love Dk's over SR this editon. I can't see myself using them anymore knowing I'd have to take 500 points worth of my army in reserves with no sure sign of when they get on the field and at that( the one turn or turn they get on the field with just 24 str 5 bolter shots a las and melta. I got SS sqauds for that mess and Simply put I want more close combat punch as that is generally what would lack in my army should I not take them. I got one at home with a heavy pscannon a good distrcation from my main force as well as a good way to deal out damage/ then I got the one which can actually get up close and personal .

All in all I think I tackled it all for the most part.

anti flyer
anti vehcile
long range
med range
cc
templates
scoring units
mobility
model count

what do you guys think?

Too many weak GEQ's. You need more bodies, trust me.

As of lately all of my tournament lists start like this: Coteaz, Grand Master, 2x Strikesquadx10 with 2xcannons, 2 DKs with flamers(teleporters dependant on boardsize) after this core is in any other points left over are just to enhance or support this.

The only time I bring the heavy psycannon on a DK is for the lulz and even then it under performs. I used to love some corny henchman holding an objective but I think strike squads in cover just do it better.

What do you guys think about this rather interesting list? I just played against it with my tyranids at 1750:

Coteaz (Inquisitor Lord)

x3 Daemonhosts
x3 Acolytes with Melta Bombs
x3 Acolytes with Bolters
x2 Crusaders, x1 Psyker
x1 Crusader, x2 Acolytes with Plasma Guns
x1 Crusader, x1 Psyker, x1 Acolyte with Bolter

x3x10 Purifiers: x4 Psycannons, x1 Thunderhammer, x5 Halberds

x3 Chimera with Dozerblade
x3 Razorback with Dozerblade and Psy-ammo

x1 Dreadknight with H-Incinerator and Personal Teleporter

1750


He would combat-squad the purifiers. Halberds+hammer would go in the psybacks. Psycannons will then hop onto the chimeras.

I personally think it is awful (though I get the impression from your comment that you didn't write it). Only 18 scoring models most of which are T3. The combos in some of the warbands seems random (Crusader, single Psyker, Acolyte for instance). It has good shooting, but it is easily shut down. Even then, there are some armies you just can't table, so you should always be able to play the scenario.

No, I didn't write it, although I did play against it:


1750 BAO Practice - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Grey Knights


My opponent tends to write "interesting" GK lists that tend to buck the trend of normal traditional GK lists. There are some synergy to his lists and I've played against them in the past. They have given me trouble before.

I've done ok with my 1-2 psyker per squad tactic before. It's really useful vs hordes as it's just spammed large blast markers to force wounds though I don't think I'd have put a crusader in the same squad to save points.

The daemonhosts I keep seeing used but I just feel like theres something I don't know about them though in every game I've just shot them off the board so I couldn't really tell what they are good for. Maybe buff a inquisitor to T4 if it's just the 2 of them? If they had like true daemon rules, then they'd be boss, fearless to the group, heck ya but sadly they don't have anything like that so I am not sure what I'd really do with something like them.

certainly adds flavor.

I've done the whole chimera/razorback hot swap before and it sorta of works but I find myself at the mercy of str 7-8 weapons like most light transports do. Splitting up my razors and chimeras and forcing the chimeras to drive 24' up, makes my side armor very vulernable. Also since I play mech IG still, the AV 12 wall still works but when you start to dilute it with Av 11's and denying occupants shooting from some vehicles, I feel like it looses something in terms of target priority denial.

The gunboat chimera with jokaro's plasma servitors or psykers and 1 bolter acolyte or something is still fun for me to use. Lack of cammo netting also hurts alot for the GK chimeras.

I mean his list can work but I see the biggest problem is air power. He can maybe handle one or two flying things but that'd be pushing it. 3+ flying things would give that list alot of grief especially if it packed in AP2 weapons or templates.

What about this for a GK list at 1500:

1 Coteaz
1 Kaldor Draigo


6 Palladins W/ Psybolt Ammo
2 Psycannon &Nemesis Deamonhammer
1 Stormbolter & Brotherhood Banner
3 Stormbolter & Sword

3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las
3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las
3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las
3 Henchmen w/ Razorback TL Plas&Las

1 DreadKnight w/ Heavy Incinerator
1 DreadKnight w/ Heavy Incinerator


Draigo en Coteaz join the pally for a nice killy unit, the dread knights march up with the pallies, the Razorbacks give fire support

Better if you get a 2 or 3 for Grand Strategy and if you aren't facing a list that will blast the Dreadknights and Paladins away easy such as Dark Eldar. You really rely on those 8 models for scoring as the 12 Henchmen are kind of pants at it.

I had a strange game the other day vs a guy that essentially had draigo and 6 solo paladins all deep stiking. The other parts of the list consisted of 2 scoring Dk's with just incinerators and no teleports, and a storm raven. Vindicare and a techmarine hung around with a psyfle dread in reinforced ruins.

Was really small army but really fun to play against. (this was 1500 points). His entire strat was to abuse the hell out of LOS and kept pressure on me with some decent but kind of low volume shooting. Essentially at these points I only had one assault element to my list and he'd just shoot that down a bit and then hide everything. When my guys got into position to get around some annoying ruins LOS, it was already turn 4 and he still had 4 scoring paladins and a scoring dk. I didn't lose much but with a shooty army, having nothing much to shoot at really was annoying as hell lol.

I'm not sure it's a super viable list but just seems to buck the trend. I'm not sure I'd want to fight it with my ork horde list as he'd just tarpit the heck out of my 3 scoring units (that I stripped the power klaws out of) like forever.

Vs my necrons wraithwing, I think I'll have the advantage but with a slow foot slog list, it was kind of hard to actually shoot him off things as his whole aim is to hide and avoid me behind LOS which we actually have quite a bit of here for terrain. Lucky for him we were playing emperor's will where we ended up a draw with both sides contesting eachother's HQ's with his paladin getting a lucky deep strike roll and my henchmen squad finally making it over to get stuck in with a DK with 1 wound left vs some 3 DCA with axes... But people are comming up with all sorts of wierd lists. Creative though.

How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

Denial is definitely a viable strategy, especially when you think your army is overmatched or your opponent's firepower is just too great. It's not fun for your opponent to play against, but it definitely gives you a chance to win where normally that chance may be small. That's how I played my necrons against a shooty MSU army at the the Golden Throne. It was how my bugs were able to overcome a guard army with tremendous firepower and most recently, a hybrid purifier/henchmen army. Deny your opponent his greatest strength (i.e. shooting in most cases) and now you have the advantage. But in order to do it well, you will need to bring a balanced army with enough mobility to overcome the positional disadvantage you will most likely be putting yourself in when you try to deny your opponent his strengths. That's why my crons have wraiths and flyers and my bugs have 2 flyrants and the far-reaching biovores.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

I've become a fan of using psykers with at least the Prescience power as my HQs. One big 10 man terminator squad (with Psybolts and 2 Psycannons) basically getting to reroll all misses has done wonders for me. When the odds say you'll kill at least 5 marines a turn with that, it's pretty good.

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves, the always Deep Striking thing has always been part of their rules because some expansions have mission which don't allow Deep Strike as standard deployment. Even then, 'always being allowed to enter by Deep Strike' in no way includes a clause 'and doesn't count for total reserves'. I've seen people say this before and it is nothing more than people reading a rule how they want it to play. There is nothing in the rules to support it, and there is no precedent set for it; everything else that is exempt from the reserve rules explicitly say so. So yes, it is cheating.

well I guess we may have misplayed it but it wouldn't have hardly mattered as he had one paladin hidden way the heck in the back behind some hills I could never have reached anyway so doubt it have changed the outcome of the game any way.

Still a very novel solution to the whole thing.

Personally I think it would have been better changes to that kind of list if he dropped the techmarine / vindicare/ psyfleman and took like a cheapo inquisitor to hide also way behind a hill somewhere as his warlord cause draigo by himself is good and all but really not that sturdy as he has nothing else for me to shoot at. Maybe get a 2nd storm raven just to be more annoying? I really have no idea. His "firebase" was definately a bullet magnet and even with a 2+ save, the vindicare still went down to enough shots his way.

I had an aegis too but it and the combined fire of the army having not much else to shoot at all game brought down his one storm raven after it killed a rhino and a henchman from coteaz's squad.

A more general question: Have had a lot of fun playing Grey KNights but like all Marine armies, they really aren't my favorite force TO play, given so many options that I have. So I have been playing other armies since 6E came out.

But I wonder this: In tournies, now that 6th Edition Allies have really taken flight and patterns are starting to show up we can kind of count on a bit, are we finding that Grey Knights are nearly the force they were as a whole?

I have seen no Grey Knights at tournies recently which surprised me and prompts the question. I've had no really strong desire to reach for mine to test the theory. They are my best painted army but I am having too much fun right now with other armies.

So just thought I'd ask if their tourney performance has sort of even'd out. I am sure most would say its a very good codex still, but is it the "powerhouse" it was when it first emerged?

 Jancoran wrote:
A more general question: Have had a lot of fun playing Grey KNights but like all Marine armies, they really aren't my favorite force TO play, given so many options that I have. So I have been playing other armies since 6E came out.

But I wonder this: In tournies, now that 6th Edition Allies have really taken flight and patterns are starting to show up we can kind of count on a bit, are we finding that Grey Knights are nearly the force they were as a whole?

I have seen no Grey Knights at tournies recently which surprised me and prompts the question. I've had no really strong desire to reach for mine to test the theory. They are my best painted army but I am having too much fun right now with other armies.

So just thought I'd ask if their tourney performance has sort of even'd out. I am sure most would say its a very good codex still, but is it the "powerhouse" it was when it first emerged?

I too have not seen many Grey Knights other than myself at tournaments since 6th struck Earth, however they are performing even better for me since, and I've managed to consistently place high with them, all but once in the top 5.

 Jancoran wrote:
A more general question: Have had a lot of fun playing Grey KNights but like all Marine armies, they really aren't my favorite force TO play, given so many options that I have. So I have been playing other armies since 6E came out.

But I wonder this: In tournies, now that 6th Edition Allies have really taken flight and patterns are starting to show up we can kind of count on a bit, are we finding that Grey Knights are nearly the force they were as a whole?

I have seen no Grey Knights at tournies recently which surprised me and prompts the question. I've had no really strong desire to reach for mine to test the theory. They are my best painted army but I am having too much fun right now with other armies.

So just thought I'd ask if their tourney performance has sort of even'd out. I am sure most would say its a very good codex still, but is it the "powerhouse" it was when it first emerged?

It's morphed alot from what it used to be for sure and I think that turned alot of people away from the knights. They were great when it was mech MSU with easy to pull off dismount charges that were very dangerous i.e. purifiers and of course the hard to kill paladin blocks that probably got way more attention than actually performing that much better.

It's definately still a good codex meaning there are alot of choices and they do alot of different roles usually well but definately not as powerful as it used to be. It's like I said on the first page too, it's definately a top end of the midtier codex now. More shooty options such as necrons, tau even (believe it or not I'm actually undefeated after 9 games with the Tau so far lol just about against anything as long as you let me have my tetras and eldar allies, and maybe a baracuda) , IG, and Space wolves got probably my top votes for best armies of 6th edition so far.

Others in the same level as GK I feel are Nids (psychic spam flying ftw), and chaos. (yes I said chaos, baleflamers and spawn all the way. Great units in that dex but people are still stuck using alot of wierd combos for fun as far as I can tell)

A bit below would be SM, sisters, orks (fear the 120 shoota boyz hordes and loota spam, also dakka jets are amazing, also great with wierd boyz and random waaaag), older non-forge world tau's, eldar, dark eldar, still good but definately more gimic prone like eldrad+vect madness etc along with daemons who I think are still a bit gimmicy. I got the flying circus and have enough flamers and screamers already painted but I'm still either not doing it right or just have terrible luck to where I can't really place them much higher,

At the bottom levels I'd probably put black templars and still wondering where to put dark angels as I'm thinking it's gonna get updated like in a month so I can't tell where it'll end up.

Upper mid-tier is not giving it enough credit I think. It is still solidly top tier, just not Necron tier.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Upper mid-tier is not giving it enough credit I think. It is still solidly top tier, just not Necron tier.

Agreed. They are still top-tier. They just aren't top dog anymore.

 sudojoe wrote:

It's definately still a good codex meaning there are alot of choices and they do alot of different roles usually well but definately not as powerful as it used to be. It's like I said on the first page too, it's definately a top end of the midtier codex now. More shooty options such as necrons, tau even (believe it or not I'm actually undefeated after 9 games with the Tau so far lol just about against anything as long as you let me have my tetras and eldar allies, and maybe a baracuda) , IG, and Space wolves got probably my top votes for best armies of 6th edition so far.

Others in the same level as GK I feel are Nids (psychic spam flying ftw), and chaos. (yes I said chaos, baleflamers and spawn all the way. Great units in that dex but people are still stuck using alot of wierd combos for fun as far as I can tell)

A bit below would be SM, sisters, orks (fear the 120 shoota boyz hordes and loota spam, also dakka jets are amazing, also great with wierd boyz and random waaaag), older non-forge world tau's, eldar, dark eldar, still good but definately more gimic prone like eldrad+vect madness etc along with daemons who I think are still a bit gimmicy. I got the flying circus and have enough flamers and screamers already painted but I'm still either not doing it right or just have terrible luck to where I can't really place them much higher,

At the bottom levels I'd probably put black templars and still wondering where to put dark angels as I'm thinking it's gonna get updated like in a month so I can't tell where it'll end up.

Here are my opinions. This is assuming the general is competent and knows how to play his army.

TOP-TIER ARMIES:
Tyranids are solid and can compete with a lot of the top tier armies. I'd actually rank them as a lower-top-tier army.

Daemons are a newly-crowned top-tier army that can win tournaments, thanks to the recent White Dwarf updates.

Necrons are a top-tier army that can win tournaments. They are arguably top-dog right now.

IG is a top-tier army that can still win tournaments.

Space wolves are a top-tier army that can still win tournaments.

Dark Eldar are a lower-top tier army. They have unbelievable offense but their resiliency is questionable.

Orks are a top-tier army that can still win tournaments. A lot of armies will have problems playing against 180 orks backed by nob bikers or 3 dakkajets or 30 lootas.

Believe it or not, Black Templars are a top-tier army that can win tournaments. Dave Fay has been proving this consistently. This is probably one of the very few armies that can match space wolves and grey knights in firepower and out-shoot everything else. 70pts for land speeder typhoons?!? I'll take 9 please. 5-man MSU squads with lascannons? Dreads with S10 lascannnons and terminators with S9 typhoon missile launchers due to Tank hunters? Codex creep actually has practically 75% of the army under-costed in comparison with the newer marine armies.



MIDDLE-TIER ARMIES:
Tau are still good. They are more matchup prone, excelling against certain armies and weak against others. They are an upper-middle-tier army.

Space Marines

Blood Angels

Chaos Space Marines

Sisters of Battle - often under-estimated.

Deathwing - a horribly unbalanced army but also one that a lot of armies find very hard to deal with.



LOWER-TIER ARMIES:
Dark Angels (other than Deathwing) - really, I can't find anything in that codex that vanilla marines can't do and do better.

Tyranids? No offense but I have a beat stick with a permanent dent in it the shape of a Tyranid.

Top tier? One thinks not! other than one dude who doesn't know how to read the rules for Psyker powers, I haven't seen ANYONE succeed with Tyranids.

Now I WAS talking at tournies BTW. in casual games I can see potential for fun with them, and their are combos I have been DYING to try in the absence of anyonegiving them a serious tourney go. But in tourney play itself not only are they rare right now but the are getting beat down by most reckonings Ive heard of.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves, the always Deep Striking thing has always been part of their rules because some expansions have mission which don't allow Deep Strike as standard deployment. Even then, 'always being allowed to enter by Deep Strike' in no way includes a clause 'and doesn't count for total reserves'. I've seen people say this before and it is nothing more than people reading a rule how they want it to play. There is nothing in the rules to support it, and there is no precedent set for it; everything else that is exempt from the reserve rules explicitly say so. So yes, it is cheating.

TDA actually does because it says "The wearers of Terminator armor may always deep strike"

They still count against the limit, but you can go over with them.

So if he had other units that we just in normal reserves he would have been illegal.

He couldn't have held a unit of Strike Marines in reserves as they would have been forced onto the table.

 Jancoran wrote:
Tyranids? No offense but I have a beat stick with a permanent dent in it the shape of a Tyranid.

Top tier? One thinks not! other than one dude who doesn't know how to read the rules for Psyker powers, I haven't seen ANYONE succeed with Tyranids.

Now I WAS talking at tournies BTW. in casual games I can see potential for fun with them, and their are combos I have been DYING to try in the absence of anyonegiving them a serious tourney go. But in tourney play itself not only are they rare right now but the are getting beat down by most reckonings Ive heard of.

While it's true that they haven't won any tournaments lately (though I have heard of them doing well in some), I attribute that to the rarity of tyranids appearing in the larger tournaments. People really don't have confidence in them at this time and so are opting to bring other armies to tournaments instead, ones that they feel are more "tournament-ready". But ever since I've started playing tyranids again recently, I'm beginning to see how good they can potentially be. I know my experiences are anecdotal since it's only a few games and not in a tournament environment, but some armies you can try even for a few games and gauge whether they have what it takes to succeed.

For my tyranid experiences (which BTW I am documenting in battle reports), just check out my battle reports in my battle report link below.

 jy2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Tyranids? No offense but I have a beat stick with a permanent dent in it the shape of a Tyranid.

Top tier? One thinks not! other than one dude who doesn't know how to read the rules for Psyker powers, I haven't seen ANYONE succeed with Tyranids.

Now I WAS talking at tournies BTW. in casual games I can see potential for fun with them, and their are combos I have been DYING to try in the absence of anyonegiving them a serious tourney go. But in tourney play itself not only are they rare right now but the are getting beat down by most reckonings Ive heard of.

While it's true that they haven't won any tournaments lately (though I have heard of them doing well in some), I attribute that to the rarity of tyranids appearing in the larger tournaments. People really don't have confidence in them at this time and so are opting to bring other armies to tournaments instead, ones that they feel are more "tournament-ready". But ever since I've started playing tyranids again recently, I'm beginning to see how good they can potentially be. I know my experiences are anecdotal since it's only a few games and not in a tournament environment, but some armies you can try even for a few games and gauge whether they have what it takes to succeed.

For my tyranid experiences (which BTW I am documenting in battle reports), just check out my battle reports in my battle report link below.

Unless your army is SM , BA, SW, DA, Plague Marine,Thousand Suns or super covered GK your army is not
"tournament-ready" . all horde armys Tyranids, Orks, Deamons, Dark Eldar and Guardian heavy Eldar armys are useless in 6ed

 jy2 wrote:
Believe it or not, Black Templars are a top-tier army that can win tournaments. Dave Fay has been proving this consistently. This is probably one of the very few armies that can match space wolves and grey knights in firepower and out-shoot everything else. 70pts for land speeder typhoons?!? I'll take 9 please. 5-man MSU squads with lascannons? Dreads with S10 lascannnons and terminators with S9 typhoon missile launchers due to Tank hunters? Codex creep actually has practically 75% of the army under-costed in comparison with the newer marine armies.

Tank Hunters doesn't do that anymore.

 Grey Templar wrote:
TDA actually does because it says "The wearers of Terminator armor may always deep strike"

They still count against the limit, but you can go over with them.

If people can't see the contradiction there then there's no point in discussing this. It's just silly.

 yorkskargrimironklaw wrote:
Unless your army is SM , BA, SW, DA, Plague Marine,Thousand Suns or super covered GK your army is not
"tournament-ready" . all horde armys Tyranids, Orks, Deamons, Dark Eldar and Guardian heavy Eldar armys are useless in 6ed

No offence you really haven't even the faintest idea about what's competitive it seems. jy2 has proven himself at some of the biggest and baddest tournaments in the US, I'd take some advice from him if I were you, as there are no cheesy SM armies, Thousand Sons are not good, Orks and Daemons are both very good armies (the latter being one of the two big bads out there today) and horde armies do work very well in 6th. Moreover, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Daemons are not horde armies and there good builds don't play as such.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves,

Yes it does. You should the rules again.Here is the relevant part: They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules . It explicitly goes on and tells you that models in Terminator armour may always start in reserves, so why you keep claiming it doesn't say that? Anyway, this is not right thread to argue it, we can move it to YMDC if you have any actual rules that support your viewpoint, while keeping in mind that specific > general / Codex > BRB.

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
How did he Deep Strike 7 units when he only deployed 5? That's illegal.

In this case, it isn't. All 7 units only consisted of models which are always allowed to Deep Strike, ie. terminators. He could also DS those DK too if he wished, they have same special rule as terminator armour does.

TDA does not override the rules for reserves,

Yes it does. You should the rules again.Here is the relevant part: They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules . It explicitly goes on and tells you that models in Terminator armour may always start in reserves, so why you keep claiming it doesn't say that? Anyway, this is not right thread to argue it, we can move it to YMDC if you have any actual rules that support your viewpoint, while keeping in mind that specific > general / Codex > BRB.

They may always start the game in reserves. The word MAY is what makes them count tward the 50% total... Pay close attention how the word MAY doesn't look at all like the word MUST. Flyers and droppods have this word in thier rules.

Yes, you can go over the 50% rule with Terminators. However they do still count toward the limit. So you couldn't put any other units in reserves that don't have this explicit allowence.