Grey Knights are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

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**Tomb King**

jy2 wrote:
Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:Wait....am I in the right thread? What's all this talk about necrons?

Tremorcrons is an ok build, but it's got holes in it. People will figure it out eventually. Immo and Orikan are both hit-&-miss characters. Sometimes when they're on, they rock. But just as often as not, many times they will just not do much.

But no matter what, necrons have changed the current meta. Now you need to take into account Night-fight at tournaments to truly have a TAC list. For IG, they still have the perfect weapons against necrons - 3 manticores. These are great TAC heavy choices and isn't bothered all that much against NF.

Except 3d6 scatter and manticore's arent as great against other top builds.

3D6 is better than not being able to shoot at all. I'm also assuming you have scouting vendettas to searchlight the opponent if you had to. Against a scarab-farm, you have to consider sacrificing at least 1 bird to try to take out that threat....

As for manticores not being great against other top builds, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

ShumaGorath wrote:There isn't much that D3 str10 large blasts isn't great against.

Mark my words now boys. I see (immotep) Necrons knocking IG from the top 3... maybe even the top 5. Hitting the side armor with d6 S 8 blast is crushing. You might say it averages 1 in 6 vehicles. How many vehicles do you have in your ig army?

**schadenfreude**

Tomb King wrote:
Target wrote:
Tomb King wrote:
Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Ah, didn't realize you were joking, thought you thought it was a truly bad-news-bears situation.

And yea, that Necron tremor army is a very weird type of list. It doesn't engage in the traditional slugfest that most armies do, it just keeps you locked into one place and lolz until the end of the game. Playing as a more stationary mech IG (which I'm guessing is what you play) is super tough versus it, as you really have no way to deal with the scarab farm until it's charging you, and your strength (shooting) is nixed by night fight while lightning cracks on side AV 10. The only real way to beat it IS to bum rush it, and it makes you pay very dearly FOR bum rushing it.

The big Ace I can see for IG against it is Al'rahem (he's always been a cornerstone of my IG GT builds), you can control reserve rolls with the astropath and the side he comes in on, and now you're in his backfield on turn 2 or 3, missing out on the super fun "no movement turn 1". It's not a sure-win, but it's definitely an important role player in that match.

But, kudos to you for taking guard up the ladder so far! You seem to have played them quite well to go 5-1

And now....are necrons going to push GK out of this thread and replace them as the "most overpowered book?"

They've taken down 3 for 3 on the last GT's, Templecon, SVDM, and now Indy Open!

Ya, I made it so far only to sit across the table for the duration of the final game and watch lightning strike. lol. Anyone that doesnt believe in codex creep should look at the last 3 codices released by games-workshop. Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, and now Necrons. I am seriously worried about the next army book coming out. I think eventually an army is gonna be put out that if you roll a 5+ on any given turn the battle ends. lol

The thing with necrons is they basically play there own game. They have the ability to make all 6 turns night fight with 2 solar pulse(for your enemies turn if you fail with immotep) and Immotep. While bringing scarab farm and just throwing them at your opponent there isnt much your opponent if he is shooty heavy or MSU spam can do about it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:
Tomb King wrote:
Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Didn't you roll on from reserve and lose a third of your army turn one? (I might be thinking of a different game.)

Step One: Don't go full reserve.
Step Two: Searchlight the C'Tan or Immo or Orik. Watch it evaporate. *
Step Three: Profit

Seriously, he can't hide them all unless there is VERY favorable terrain and if they are off the board they don't work. You have plenty of sacrificial searchlights in a guard army and then everything in your army is blowing him up. You just ignore the rest until you deal with the biggest threat.

lol, no I had a DoW game I practiced against them and rolled on and lost half.

In this last occasion I won first turn and it was spearhead. So i kept the demolisher and a vet squad in a chimera in reserve and made sure I gave enough cushion when I scouted up as he can seize on a 4+, I search lighted his ctan and fired 3 TL las, 8 TL Auto Cannon, 6 Multi, laser and 3 HB shots at it and had more to shoot but stopped when none of the previous made it through to wound. He made his invul saves when I did wound him. Only works if he fails his save.

As for taking out Orik and Immotep it was spearhead and he placed his two hq's in the very back corner farthest from me as possible. Then he seized the initiative. I missed immotep's unit 3 out of 4 manticore shots. The last one hit 4 of them but only killed one in the unit. All my vendetta's were gone by my turn 2. Lightning plus a very angry ctan and immobilizing one that tried to move back some.

I don't think IG should deploy against Imotep + Orikan. Full reserve, outflank the Vendettas, and employ a refused flank deployment against Necrons. With the short range of their weapons refused flank works very well. Necrons can't smoke or flat out before you roll on the table. With an astropath 2/3 of your army can roll on turn 3. Orikan's shenanigans are cancelled out by no IG being on the table turn 1. Imotep loses 2 turns of lightning strikes, and doesn't get to use it all until turn 3. By turn 3 he needs to roll a 4+ to continue night fighting (75% chance with the right cryptek, 50% without). By turn 4 he needs to roll a 5+ (55% with reroll, 33% without), and by turn 5 it's only on a 6 (16.6% or 33.3%). And while unlikely Imotep does have to make his rolls on turn 1 and 2 while IG are off the table to continue night fighting.

IG can also do a spotlight + Marbo + PBS combo on imotep on turn 2 causing him to run off the table.

Necrons are a solid book, but they are not over powered. Also IG isn't dead. Hydra spam went 6 wins and 1 tie to win first place out of 92 players at the bay area open yesterday.

**Pony_law**

Part of the reason I think necron's are doing so well at the moment is the meta hasn't adapted to their builds yet. Right now necron palyers got to build against the known meta with a decent book, their opponents are still building with past meta in mind and have less experience against the new crons.

Cron's definitely have a good book, but so far each competative build I've seen have success I think is counterable, so i expect the results to slow down.

**Mannahnin**

They're better than a lot of people thought, but I agree that part of their advantage is unfamiliarity. There are counters to most of what they do, but most people haven't learned them yet, and even the folks who are getting used to them haven't made the counters second nature yet.

**Draigo**

Well there is no other army that can change the battlefield like the crons and with the different tremor lists, wraith lists, night fight lists, etc its not as simple as well this army is long range, mc or whatever. lol

**Spidey0804**

pretre wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:I find it entertaining. Granted I also don't believe GK's are broken. I find they slot in nicely to 5th edition.

Agreed. I have actually had little to no problem with GKs so far in 5th edition. Granted I only do one tournament a month, but I have lost to exactly one GK player and it was damn close (Amusingly enough, Celestine not getting back up lost me the game.) I think it was about 4 games with my SW at 2500 and 6-8 with Sisters and Orks at 1500-2000.

I agree here as and SOB player I have only lost to GKs 2 twice, The first time was when I played against them for the first time and the second was when a guy decided he wanted to stop playing in the forth turn of tourney. Long story and I don't feel like getting into it. But I beat them on a more regular basis then not.

**DarthDiggler**

I, along with a few others, said GK are overpowered. The naysayers have pointed to a lack of tourney success in 2011 as evidence they are not overpowered. I said 2012 would be the year everyone gets a chance to build GK and play them.

Adepticon 2012. The field is 25% Grey Knights. Grey Knits win the best overall and the top Imperial Army (which means they finished 1-2 among marines). Of the top 16 players record wise, 7 of them are Grey Knight players.

Anything can happen in a dice game and maybe GK will go undefeated at the end or maybe not, but out of 240 players in the final 16, 46% of the field remaining in Grey Knights and looking at the names present it appears some of the top players nationally have moved on to Grey Knights as expected. Something they had not done yet in 2011.

**Welsh_Furey**

fantasy deamons end of it lol

**OverwatchCNC**

Threadnomancy?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Welsh_Furey wrote:fantasy deamons end of it lol

I made this point ages ago when this all began. Then again somewhere in the middle. It was ignored, as the truth often is.

**-666-**

I wish the mods would lock this thread.

**jy2**

Adepticon is showing that when the good players play grey knights, they are indeed very dominant.

**Timmah**

jy2 wrote:Adepticon is showing that when the good players play grey knights, they are indeed very dominant.

Or maybe they were 25% of the field and scenarios benefited them.

**OverwatchCNC**

-666- wrote:I wish the mods would lock this thread.

This technically was a case of thread necromancy but I still doubt they will lock it.

**Smitty0305**

the codex is broken.

anyone saying the codex isnt broken is a GK player who doesnt like the idea that their CODEX not their TACTICS are the reason they win games.

**OverwatchCNC**

Smitty0305 wrote:the codex is broken.

anyone saying the codex isnt broken is a GK player who doesnt like the idea that their CODEX not their TACTICS are the reason they win games.

Cool story bro.

Anyone saying the codex is broken is just a non gk player tired of being beaten by them.

I am glad there is a resurrected thread where we can both discuss our views using 0 facts.

**-666-**

Great comments like Smitty's are one reason I'd love to see this thread bite the dust. There will always be top tier armies that are hard bit and that will never change.

**MDizzle**

The Simple fact is GK are OP I don't think you can deny that if you have played Vs it or read the book. The fact is GK have an answer to everything and that is why they are OP.

**Blood and Slaughter**

So how come I win just as handily with Dark Eldar as with GK then? Are they broken too? (I've beaten Purifier spam with the evil space faeries but in fairness I've not yet played other GK builds).

As regards the Adepticon results, consider that c40% of attendees had GK (I read in a Dakka thread). Now you may argue that they had 50% of the top 8 places but if nearly half the people attending are bringing them then that's to be expected.

Even were the percentage of attendees bringing GK lower (as I'd expect to be the case), you should consider that the net wisdom declaring them OP combined with the fact that they have several good builds would encourage people to take them, especially if they're looking for a new army to bring.

I agree that some codices restrict the possible competitive builds and that one or two codices are subpar while others allow several competitive builds and some have some very good builds indeed (Guard, GK, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves at least). But while snivelling about GK being OP may be amusing, I'd like to see some hard facts about number of attendees bringing GK armies to Adepticon (and how many GK players in the top 8 had previously placed in say the top 20 or so).

**Tomb King**

Blood and Slaughter wrote:So how come I win just as handily with Dark Eldar as with GK then? Are they broken too? (I've beaten Purifier spam with the evil space faeries but in fairness I've not yet played other GK builds).

As regards the Adepticon results, consider that c40% of attendees had GK (I read in a Dakka thread). Now you may argue that they had 50% of the top 8 places but if nearly half the people attending are bringing them then that's to be expected.

Even were the percentage of attendees bringing GK lower (as I'd expect to be the case), you should consider that the net wisdom declaring them OP combined with the fact that they have several good builds would encourage people to take them, especially if they're looking for a new army to bring.

I agree that some codices restrict the possible competitive builds and that one or two codices are subpar while others allow several competitive builds and some have some very good builds indeed (Guard, GK, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves at least). But while snivelling about GK being OP may be amusing, I'd like to see some hard facts about number of attendees bringing GK armies to Adepticon (and how many GK players in the top 8 had previously placed in say the top 20 or so).

Closer to 25% were GK. 8 of the top 16 were GK. As for your point about dark eldar their were 0 that survived day one so regardless of generals fielding them they did not survive. So conclusion DE are very balanced. I am just getting tired of seeing GK's. It gets boring. I beat GK's everytime I match up against them but it isnt usually fun to have back to back repeat match-ups. If the amount of players continue to grow they can have 2 seperate GT's. One for the 64 GK players and one for 64 players not using GK

. This way maybe the over populated GK will see how boring it can get playing against the same thing over and over.

GK won the Adepticon Champs.

**-666-**

Some people felt the same way about IG two years ago.

**Adam LongWalker**

-666- wrote:Some people felt the same way about IG two years ago.

Compared to the GK codex the IG was an easy beat. Meta is Meta. The GK codex gives so much flexibility that it is hard to beat. As I have stated in my previous postings about the GK (in 2011), the Cortez build is a brutal build and the person who won Adepticon used a Cortez Build.

Lets see what happens when 6th ed comes out and then see who and what codex gets nerfed. I got a sneaky suspicion that MSU units are going to go by the wayside.

**ShumaGorath**

-666- wrote:Some people felt the same way about IG two years ago.

I haven't seen competition get strangled by quite this level of entrant consolidation before. Top tables have looked similar to this, but even orks or IG weren't this popular in their heydays and this books been going for a year now. Having two brutally powerful ranged armies and an army that wins melee conflicts automatically comprising half a tournament is pretty terrible for any tyranid players or any army winning on the basis of mellee (grats to the ork and daemon players that got in). Hopefully sixth can help.

**winterman**

Closer to 25% were GK. 8 of the top 16 were GK.

To be exact 22% were GK and 7 of the top 16 were GK (the 8th was an alt when an Ork player declined to play in the finals). Probably of more interest is the numbers for undefeated (which I think is 7/14 but not sure).

Still, the point remains and its a strong one -- a much higher percent of GK ended up in the finals if all things were equal. If people recall Orks had a similar stat last year but nowhere near as strong. However we cannot just attribute this stat to the power of the codex itself. I can't quantify, but I think a big part of the results is the number of exceptional players playing the dex.

**pretre**

Interesting to know. So glad that this thread got necro'd. /facepalm.

I'll have to wait to see the results for Adepticon to see how things actually went out. Although it sounds like winterman has some good data there.

What were the others in the top?

I think a lot of it was that folks drank the kool-aid and a lot of top players brought GK. Sad thing is that I heard there were no SOB. :(

**-666-**

SW and IG are just as broken as GK. Its a fact.

**pretre**

-666- wrote:SW and IG are just as broken as GK. Its a fact.

Citation needed.

Adding 'Its (sic) a fact.' to your posts doesn't make it so.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wait, it was a clever way of mocking the argument that any of them are broken. Well played.

**winterman**

pretre wrote:Interesting to know. So glad that this thread got necro'd. /facepalm.

I'll have to wait to see the results for Adepticon to see how things actually went out. Although it sounds like winterman has some good data there.

What were the others in the top?

I think a lot of it was that folks drank the kool-aid and a lot of top players brought GK. Sad thing is that I heard there were no SOB. :(

I don't have full stats and the 22% thing was the report from a few at the event. Could be inaccurate I guess. I dunno about SoB but it was mentioned many times that there were no Tyranids (which is kinda crazy for a 256 player event but that is a story for another post).

Below is the ranking after game 4 day 1. Notice Necrons were number 1. Also quite a few top rated or GT winning players in the mix and former Adepticon Finalists.

Alexander Fennell – Necrons
Tony Grippando – Grey Knights
Mike Mutscheller – Space Wolves
Justin Cook – Grey Knights
Bill Kim – Chaos Daemonsk
Jose Mendez – Dark Angels
Joakim Engstrom – Grey Knights
Ricky Johnson – Orks
Doug Johnson – Orks
Brett Perkins – Imperial Guard
Paul Murphy – Grey Knights
Tony Kopach – Space Wolves
Dave Ankarlo – Grey Knights
Brad Chester – Grey Knights
Nick Nanavati – Grey Knights
Reece Robbins – Eldar

**pretre**

Cool, thanks for the breakdown.

**Tomb King**

-666- wrote:SW and IG are just as broken as GK. Its a fact.

lol, that is why this is the second straight event that I was the solo IG player to survive the 1st day of gaming... and space wolves had only 2 make it to day 2 at this event and 0 made it to day 2 at the INDY Open. As for nids they have been removed from competitive play which is sad. Second event in a row that 0 were represented.

**Stoffer**

winterman wrote:
pretre wrote:Interesting to know. So glad that this thread got necro'd. /facepalm.

I'll have to wait to see the results for Adepticon to see how things actually went out. Although it sounds like winterman has some good data there.

What were the others in the top?

I think a lot of it was that folks drank the kool-aid and a lot of top players brought GK. Sad thing is that I heard there were no SOB. :(

I don't have full stats and the 22% thing was the report from a few at the event. Could be inaccurate I guess. I dunno about SoB but it was mentioned many times that there were no Tyranids (which is kinda crazy for a 256 player event but that is a story for another post).

Below is the ranking after game 4 day 1. Notice Necrons were number 1. Also quite a few top rated or GT winning players in the mix and former Adepticon Finalists.

Alexander Fennell – Necrons
Tony Grippando – Grey Knights
Mike Mutscheller – Space Wolves
Justin Cook – Grey Knights
Bill Kim – Chaos Daemonsk
Jose Mendez – Dark Angels
Joakim Engstrom – Grey Knights
Ricky Johnson – Orks
Doug Johnson – Orks
Brett Perkins – Imperial Guard
Paul Murphy – Grey Knights
Tony Kopach – Space Wolves
Dave Ankarlo – Grey Knights
Brad Chester – Grey Knights
Nick Nanavati – Grey Knights
Reece Robbins – Eldar

Yeah, notice the single Necron in a field of GK players. People bring them to tournaments because they're terribly broken and it's telling that 7 out of 16 players in the final field are GK players.