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ShumaGorath wrote:

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:IDK, Hulk's list looks pretty mean.

Is he bringing grey knights? If so then I concede upon match-up. lol

If you're playing mech guard (which by the look of your last comment you are) you're one of his worst matchups possible if he's doing the all-footsy grey knights again. Psybolt ammo is pointless versus chimeras, and psycannons are suddenly just autocannons.

Autocanons that can kill land raiders.

How many guard armies have access to land raiders, shuma?

That was all about mech guard versus GK's, and was clearly labeled as such.

Target wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:IDK, Hulk's list looks pretty mean.

Is he bringing grey knights? If so then I concede upon match-up. lol

If you're playing mech guard (which by the look of your last comment you are) you're one of his worst matchups possible if he's doing the all-footsy grey knights again. Psybolt ammo is pointless versus chimeras, and psycannons are suddenly just autocannons.

Autocanons that can kill land raiders.

How many guard armies have access to land raiders, shuma?

That was all about mech guard versus GK's, and was clearly labeled as such.

Leman russes than. AV14 is AV14. The general that underestimates 30 rending shots is the one that loses his tanks.

It's all foot. And Mech IG are one of the nastier match-ups for me. We'll see how the weekend goes

Brad, are you going to BAO?

No, couldn't do another flight to Cali this early in the year so I'm headed to the Indy Open down in Indianapolis. It's a 6-round Nova-style event. Should be a good time. The BOA is on the list for next year if it's possible. Otherwise it's the Indy Open, Adepticon, The Bugeater, and the Nova guarenteed left for this year.

New thread suggestion: Nerf Hulksmash

thehod wrote:New thread suggestion: Nerf Hulksmash

How about 'Hulksmash is the most overpowered player GW has seen in the last decade.'?

pretre wrote:

thehod wrote:New thread suggestion: Nerf Hulksmash

How about 'Hulksmash is the most overpowered player GW has seen in the last decade.'?

I used to be a player like Hulksmash, but then I took a Manticore shot to the knee.....

Target, I am not sure where you fall on this debate currently... are you in the GK are overpowered camp? Or with the necron's latest success are you feeling that GK were just another good imperial book?

I feel like my Deathwing would be stronger if played as GK, at least from a shooting standpoint. Close combat is about a wash I feel. Morale suffers slightly, what with Paladins not being fearless, though there are ways to help Paladin morale.

DevianID wrote:Target, I am not sure where you fall on this debate currently... are you in the GK are overpowered camp? Or with the necron's latest success are you feeling that GK were just another good imperial book?

I feel like my Deathwing would be stronger if played as GK, at least from a shooting standpoint. Close combat is about a wash I feel. Morale suffers slightly, what with Paladins not being fearless, though there are ways to help Paladin morale.

I'm in the "GK are just another good 5th edition book" camp (and have been since they came out). I feel they're currently top tier, but by no means OP. They're just hanging out alongside SW, IG, BA, DE, and Crons

Not sure I think your DW would be stronger as GK

Paladins get:
Wound allocation
2 Wounds
More volume of fire
Force weapons (not a big deal since all DW have str 8 fists)

DW gets:
Controlled entry via deepstrike if desired
Much cheaper
Missiles (ill take em over psycannons any day)
Access to storm shields for free
Fearless

Target wrote:Force weapons (not a big deal since all DW have str 8 fists)

As a nid player, I have to disagree that Force weapons are not a big deal.
There's a huge difference between a STR 8 fist and a force weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:Force weapons (not a big deal since all DW have str 8 fists)

As a nid player, I have to disagree that Force weapons are not a big deal.
There's a huge difference between a STR 8 fist and a force weapon.

I'll agree that for Nids players, it is a big deal. However, from the point of view of a tournament army thinking about str 8 weapons vs force weapons, in general I'd choose str 8. While force weapons may be better versus nids, str 8 allows you to punch vehicles (much more common than MC's), still instakill 90% of the characters/multiwound models you'll see, and not need a psychic check to do any of that.

Target wrote:I'll agree that for Nids players, it is a big deal. However, from the point of view of a tournament army thinking about str 8 weapons vs force weapons, in general I'd choose str 8. While force weapons may be better versus nids, str 8 allows you to punch vehicles (much more common than MC's), still instakill 90% of the characters/multiwound models you'll see, and not need a psychic check to do any of that.

Fair enough.

Target wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Target wrote:Force weapons (not a big deal since all DW have str 8 fists)

As a nid player, I have to disagree that Force weapons are not a big deal.
There's a huge difference between a STR 8 fist and a force weapon.

I'll agree that for Nids players, it is a big deal. However, from the point of view of a tournament army thinking about str 8 weapons vs force weapons, in general I'd choose str 8. While force weapons may be better versus nids, str 8 allows you to punch vehicles (much more common than MC's), still instakill 90% of the characters/multiwound models you'll see, and not need a psychic check to do any of that.

The initiative6 and prevalence of might of titan makes those points somewhat flawed. I'm happy to run ICs and dreadnaughts into 5 man blocks of DW knowing I'll take a few down with me, and I know that a land raider is perfectly safe. As long as a librarian is local I can do neither of those things against GKs. Even without MoT stacking hammerhand will give them the ability to kill nearly every vehicle in the game with relative ease.

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:IDK, Hulk's list looks pretty mean.

Is he bringing grey knights? If so then I concede upon match-up. lol

If you're playing mech guard (which by the look of your last comment you are) you're one of his worst matchups possible if he's doing the all-footsy grey knights again. Psybolt ammo is pointless versus chimeras, and psycannons are suddenly just autocannons.

This is the equivalent of saying alpha strike guard armies are good against other alpha strike guard armies. I would be happy if I went the entire GT playing against alpha strike guard than playing against GK 6 times straight.

In the end the worst match-up for grey knights is.... grey knights. Wait you have all force weapons and 3+ cover saves too?

None the less I am hoping it will be a fun weekend regardless the outcome. Here's to hoping that I dont get an opponent with red paint syndrome

Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:IDK, Hulk's list looks pretty mean.

Is he bringing grey knights? If so then I concede upon match-up. lol

If you're playing mech guard (which by the look of your last comment you are) you're one of his worst matchups possible if he's doing the all-footsy grey knights again. Psybolt ammo is pointless versus chimeras, and psycannons are suddenly just autocannons.

This is the equivalent of saying alpha strike guard armies are good against other alpha strike guard armies. I would be happy if I went the entire GT playing against alpha strike guard than playing against GK 6 times straight.

In the end the worst match-up for grey knights is.... grey knights. Wait you have all force weapons and 3+ cover saves too?

None the less I am hoping it will be a fun weekend regardless the outcome. Here's to hoping that I dont get an opponent with red paint syndrome

Except I was responding specifically to the things you even kept in your quote: you stating that if you had to play Hulk, you were screwed. I stated his particular brew of GK's, if he took it, was bad against your mech guard. Your mech guard (no clue if it's an alpha strike variant or not) is very different from Hulk's all foot GK, which is not an alpha strike build. 24 Inch guns, no scout, and nothing fast does not equal alpha strike. Which makes your "this is the equivalent" statement...make even less sense to me.

Also: GK's worst matchup = not grey knights. Grey knights have a wide variety of builds. Coteaz/hench spam builds hate seeing DOA Blood Angels, Tyranids, etc, Paladin builds hate seeing Dark Eldar, Template Spam guard, All foot PAGK hate seeing = super heavy mech msu spam, esp. av 12 fronts as it neutralizes the advantage of their psycannon.

...And for the love of god, would you guys stop quoting 3+ cover saves? It's fairly rare to see a tournament-worthy GK army featuring a libby...

...And for the love of god, would you guys stop quoting 3+ cover saves? It's fairly rare to see a tournament-worthy GK army featuring a libby...

Aren't librarians standard in every build except Coteaz henchspam..?

pretre wrote:SVDM Results: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/433040.page

1 GK, got 2nd. Wraithwing got 1st.

Go Wraithwing!

And congrats to GK for finishing 2nd without purifiers, henchmen or psyfleman-spam. Who knew double-raven would finish so high in a tourney?

Last but not least, can't believe Deathwing made it to 3rd but congrats as well.



Last, last but not leastest, can't believe I'm back in this thread.

jy2 wrote:

pretre wrote:SVDM Results: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/433040.page

1 GK, got 2nd. Wraithwing got 1st.

Go Wraithwing!

And congrats to GK for finishing 2nd without purifiers, henchmen or psyfleman-spam. Who knew double-raven would finish so high in a tourney?

Last but not least, can't believe Deathwing made it to 3rd but congrats as well.



Last, last but not leastest, can't believe I'm back in this thread.

As i mentioned, I played the GK's. I'd cooked up this list a few days prior to the tournament with the goal of "I've never played anything quite like this, it'll be fun! There's a few take away points:

-Redeemers are terrible
-Double ravens are fun, but not exactly powerful, as they go down in a hurry.
-Libby isn't worth it. It's not so much the points cost as it is the opportunity cost of eating up an HQ slot. The powers look awesome on paper, but any intelligent opponent can play around them pretty easily.
-REDEEMERS ARE TERRIBLE

I'm admittedly biased, because in 4/5 games my redeemer was immobilized on t1 to it's first terrain test (terrain was great at SVDM, but, without room to move a landraider in between pieces without a check on any board I was on). In the one game it didn't, it was because my opponent moved up with a MM attack bike on t1, and hit me with a full range MM, rolled a 6 to glance, (I failed my 3+ cover, yes, I took a libby, also a "never again") and a 5 to produce an immobilized. We both had a good laugh afterwards about that. Redeemers. NEVAR AGAIN.

Also, with only 2 heavy support Psyfle dreads, I felt fine. My long range AT was a bit slim, but with how people are switching away from light-mech-msu spam, 2-3 Psyfle dreads is all you really need IMO to have a solid long range AT response. You won't overwhelm or blow mech-msu off the board like the 5-6 dreads, but you'll be a much more well rounded tournament force.

And third place Deathwing, was Brad, he's on here as DevianID. Deathwing is still a great army, and esp. in the hands of someone really experienced like Brad. I may have taken 2nd, but that's due to painting. 2nd in BP's was Deathwing.

Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Tomb King wrote:
Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Ah, didn't realize you were joking, thought you thought it was a truly bad-news-bears situation.

And yea, that Necron tremor army is a very weird type of list. It doesn't engage in the traditional slugfest that most armies do, it just keeps you locked into one place and lolz until the end of the game. Playing as a more stationary mech IG (which I'm guessing is what you play) is super tough versus it, as you really have no way to deal with the scarab farm until it's charging you, and your strength (shooting) is nixed by night fight while lightning cracks on side AV 10. The only real way to beat it IS to bum rush it, and it makes you pay very dearly FOR bum rushing it.

The big Ace I can see for IG against it is Al'rahem (he's always been a cornerstone of my IG GT builds), you can control reserve rolls with the astropath and the side he comes in on, and now you're in his backfield on turn 2 or 3, missing out on the super fun "no movement turn 1". It's not a sure-win, but it's definitely an important role player in that match.

But, kudos to you for taking guard up the ladder so far! You seem to have played them quite well to go 5-1


And now....are necrons going to push GK out of this thread and replace them as the "most overpowered book?"

They've taken down 3 for 3 on the last GT's, Templecon, SVDM, and now Indy Open!

Tomb King wrote:
Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Didn't you roll on from reserve and lose a third of your army turn one? (I might be thinking of a different game.)

Step One: Don't go full reserve.
Step Two: Searchlight the C'Tan or Immo or Orik. Watch it evaporate. *
Step Three: Profit


Seriously, he can't hide them all unless there is VERY favorable terrain and if they are off the board they don't work. You have plenty of sacrificial searchlights in a guard army and then everything in your army is blowing him up. You just ignore the rest until you deal with the biggest threat.

Phazael wrote:

I used to be a player like Hulksmash, but then I took a Manticore shot to the knee.....and now play like mattyrm

Fixed that for you mate.

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Ah, didn't realize you were joking, thought you thought it was a truly bad-news-bears situation.

And yea, that Necron tremor army is a very weird type of list. It doesn't engage in the traditional slugfest that most armies do, it just keeps you locked into one place and lolz until the end of the game. Playing as a more stationary mech IG (which I'm guessing is what you play) is super tough versus it, as you really have no way to deal with the scarab farm until it's charging you, and your strength (shooting) is nixed by night fight while lightning cracks on side AV 10. The only real way to beat it IS to bum rush it, and it makes you pay very dearly FOR bum rushing it.

The big Ace I can see for IG against it is Al'rahem (he's always been a cornerstone of my IG GT builds), you can control reserve rolls with the astropath and the side he comes in on, and now you're in his backfield on turn 2 or 3, missing out on the super fun "no movement turn 1". It's not a sure-win, but it's definitely an important role player in that match.

But, kudos to you for taking guard up the ladder so far! You seem to have played them quite well to go 5-1


And now....are necrons going to push GK out of this thread and replace them as the "most overpowered book?"

They've taken down 3 for 3 on the last GT's, Templecon, SVDM, and now Indy Open!

Ya, I made it so far only to sit across the table for the duration of the final game and watch lightning strike. lol. Anyone that doesnt believe in codex creep should look at the last 3 codices released by games-workshop. Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, and now Necrons. I am seriously worried about the next army book coming out. I think eventually an army is gonna be put out that if you roll a 5+ on any given turn the battle ends. lol

The thing with necrons is they basically play there own game. They have the ability to make all 6 turns night fight with 2 solar pulse(for your enemies turn if you fail with immotep) and Immotep. While bringing scarab farm and just throwing them at your opponent there isnt much your opponent if he is shooty heavy or MSU spam can do about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
Target I was obviously joking with the comment about conceding to grey knights. However, I am currently left puzzled on how I can possibly beat immotep + orikan + CTAN withering wolderscape + scarab farming assault army. The army has my number and I literally could do nothing to stop it. I felt quite powerless playing it in the final game at the INDY GT. Almost took with guard. Just cant play an entire game in night fight as I get blown up by lightning.

Didn't you roll on from reserve and lose a third of your army turn one? (I might be thinking of a different game.)

Step One: Don't go full reserve.
Step Two: Searchlight the C'Tan or Immo or Orik. Watch it evaporate. *
Step Three: Profit


Seriously, he can't hide them all unless there is VERY favorable terrain and if they are off the board they don't work. You have plenty of sacrificial searchlights in a guard army and then everything in your army is blowing him up. You just ignore the rest until you deal with the biggest threat.

lol, no I had a DoW game I practiced against them and rolled on and lost half.

In this last occasion I won first turn and it was spearhead. So i kept the demolisher and a vet squad in a chimera in reserve and made sure I gave enough cushion when I scouted up as he can seize on a 4+, I search lighted his ctan and fired 3 TL las, 8 TL Auto Cannon, 6 Multi, laser and 3 HB shots at it and had more to shoot but stopped when none of the previous made it through to wound. He made his invul saves when I did wound him. Only works if he fails his save.

As for taking out Orik and Immotep it was spearhead and he placed his two hq's in the very back corner farthest from me as possible. Then he seized the initiative. I missed immotep's unit 3 out of 4 manticore shots. The last one hit 4 of them but only killed one in the unit. All my vendetta's were gone by my turn 2. Lightning plus a very angry ctan and immobilizing one that tried to move back some.

You can only do so much when your dice fail you.

Wait....am I in the right thread? What's all this talk about necrons?

Tremorcrons is an ok build, but it's got holes in it. People will figure it out eventually. Immo and Orikan are both hit-&-miss characters. Sometimes when they're on, they rock. But just as often as not, many times they will just not do much.

But no matter what, necrons have changed the current meta. Now you need to take into account Night-fight at tournaments to truly have a TAC list. For IG, they still have the perfect weapons against necrons - 3 manticores. These are great TAC heavy choices and isn't bothered all that much against NF.

Yeah, TK, get your own 'Necrons are the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade' thread... Let's get back to ours.

pretre wrote:You can only do so much when your dice fail you.

QFT and lol at the make a necron thread.

jy2 wrote:Wait....am I in the right thread? What's all this talk about necrons?

Tremorcrons is an ok build, but it's got holes in it. People will figure it out eventually. Immo and Orikan are both hit-&-miss characters. Sometimes when they're on, they rock. But just as often as not, many times they will just not do much.

But no matter what, necrons have changed the current meta. Now you need to take into account Night-fight at tournaments to truly have a TAC list. For IG, they still have the perfect weapons against necrons - 3 manticores. These are great TAC heavy choices and isn't bothered all that much against NF.

Except 3d6 scatter and manticore's arent as great against other top builds.

Tomb King wrote:

jy2 wrote:Wait....am I in the right thread? What's all this talk about necrons?

Tremorcrons is an ok build, but it's got holes in it. People will figure it out eventually. Immo and Orikan are both hit-&-miss characters. Sometimes when they're on, they rock. But just as often as not, many times they will just not do much.

But no matter what, necrons have changed the current meta. Now you need to take into account Night-fight at tournaments to truly have a TAC list. For IG, they still have the perfect weapons against necrons - 3 manticores. These are great TAC heavy choices and isn't bothered all that much against NF.

Except 3d6 scatter and manticore's arent as great against other top builds.

3D6 is better than not being able to shoot at all. I'm also assuming you have scouting vendettas to searchlight the opponent if you had to. Against a scarab-farm, you have to consider sacrificing at least 1 bird to try to take out that threat....

As for manticores not being great against other top builds, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

There isn't much that D3 str10 large blasts isn't great against.