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I'm also not a huge fan of mixing CC weapons, you don't really have the same flexibility as mixed shooting as almost always the squad is attacking the same target.

It won't really break the squad though, so if you need some extra points, go ahead and swap one or two to LCs.

If anyone should keep a hammer though, it's the Sergeant. An extra hammer swing is way more useful than an extra Claw swing.

I found contemptor more expensive and a bit less resilient than venerable dreads to be used in a gunline.
If I paid for this M9, I would use them more as assault dreads.
Are the different weapons options worth it (2 twin linked lascannons for example) ?

I think they are worth it, M9 isn't needed but can be helpful. I'm pretty sure the Mortis Contemptor is the only way to get dual shooting options (besides the ML/TLAC on the Ven) on a BS 2+ model with CT.

I've been toying with the idea of a Contemptor/Venerable Raven Guard gunline to not need a Chapter Master and benefit from that sweet -1. I just don't have enough dreads to pull it off, that and Razorbacks are so good, but almost surely going to catch a nerf in CA.

 Perth wrote:
I think they are worth it, M9 isn't needed but can be helpful. I'm pretty sure the Mortis Contemptor is the only way to get dual shooting options (besides the ML/TLAC on the Ven) on a BS 2+ model with CT.

I've been toying with the idea of a Contemptor/Venerable Raven Guard gunline to not need a Chapter Master and benefit from that sweet -1. I just don't have enough dreads to pull it off, that and Razorbacks are so good, but almost surely going to catch a nerf in CA.

Raven Guard have 2 seperate chapter master options. Shrike may not be great, but he give you chapter master benefits, and if you don't mind running raptors, Lias Issadon goes raven guard, is a chapter master, and it just Raven Guard Plus.

stratigo wrote:

 Perth wrote:
I think they are worth it, M9 isn't needed but can be helpful. I'm pretty sure the Mortis Contemptor is the only way to get dual shooting options (besides the ML/TLAC on the Ven) on a BS 2+ model with CT.

I've been toying with the idea of a Contemptor/Venerable Raven Guard gunline to not need a Chapter Master and benefit from that sweet -1. I just don't have enough dreads to pull it off, that and Razorbacks are so good, but almost surely going to catch a nerf in CA.

Raven Guard have 2 seperate chapter master options. Shrike may not be great, but he give you chapter master benefits, and if you don't mind running raptors, Lias Issadon goes raven guard, is a chapter master, and it just Raven Guard Plus.

There's also Tyberos for Carcharodons, but that's a different topic.

I know we have options, but both are 100 points more expensive than the base Captain and you'd have to make your Lt the Warlord for Storm of Fire.

I think the list still has 3 Razorbacks and 15 Scouts, but everything else hits on 2+. So is rerolling 2s on 3 Razorbacks worth 3 Command Points or 100+ Points and a more fragile Warlord?

Well, you can then just take the cheaper dreads that don't hit on 2s. I find re-rolling all hits makes them reliable enough. I guess if you like the added durability etc, and you think you'll use the CP on something else worthwhile, then your idea isn't bad.

Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1

stratigo wrote:
Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1

It is good, but it is inherently better on melee units than it is shooting units, and space marines don't have many good melee units. Other codexes with the same ability but actual melee units (Chaos and Mechanicus) can do it much better.

It's also a bit of a 50/50 on how good it is, based on if you get first turn or not.

jcd386 wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1

It is good, but it is inherently better on melee units than it is shooting units, and space marines don't have many good melee units. Other codexes with the same ability but actual melee units (Chaos and Mechanicus) can do it much better.

It's also a bit of a 50/50 on how good it is, based on if you get first turn or not.

You know if you've got first turn before the units set up though.

With Lias Issadon, it allows you to have a devastating alpha, whether you go first or not. It's something you ca, and likely should, build an army around. It's the other archetype next to the G man gunline that make s acompetetive mono marine list (not as goot as guard, but who is?)

I find that terminators with claws are best as Cataphractii. You don't lose out on much besides mobility, and you get the delicious 4++. I find terminators are generally not used for their mobility past their teleport strike anyways so it's a good trade imho. So for me I use all claws on Cataphractii and TH/SS on my regular terminators.

Strike from the Shadows is amazing, plus you know who goes first before you place them so even if you aren't getting first turn you can usually still deploy them advantageously. I think the stratagem is best used on things that can't otherwise deep strike, like Assault Centurions or aggressors, but it is also good for things that can deepstrike since that gives even more versatility. Special mention for vanguard that then may be able to jump over the screen to hit units behind them. Also, being able to get good firing positions for sub 48" weapons is good too. Looking at you Grav-cannons and Multi-meltas.

stratigo wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Raven guard have such a good strategem that I get sad people don’t use it and just rely on the minus 1

It is good, but it is inherently better on melee units than it is shooting units, and space marines don't have many good melee units. Other codexes with the same ability but actual melee units (Chaos and Mechanicus) can do it much better.

It's also a bit of a 50/50 on how good it is, based on if you get first turn or not.

You know if you've got first turn before the units set up though.

With Lias Issadon, it allows you to have a devastating alpha, whether you go first or not. It's something you ca, and likely should, build an army around. It's the other archetype next to the G man gunline that make s acompetetive mono marine list (not as goot as guard, but who is?)

Sure, you know before you set them up, but going first is way more effective than going second, so much so that going second can mean you wasted a CP and the usefulness of the unit you wanted to be close to the enemy drops significantly.

Building an army around the ravenguard strat means relying on the first turn more than is generally a good idea. This is exacerbated by the fact that most ravenguard armies have a lot of drops, meaning you get first turn a lot less than otherwise.

Of course Lias is a good way to build an army, since it doesn't rely on the first turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Garius wrote:
I find that terminators with claws are best as Cataphractii. You don't lose out on much besides mobility, and you get the delicious 4++. I find terminators are generally not used for their mobility past their teleport strike anyways so it's a good trade imho. So for me I use all claws on Cataphractii and TH/SS on my regular terminators.

Strike from the Shadows is amazing, plus you know who goes first before you place them so even if you aren't getting first turn you can usually still deploy them advantageously. I think the stratagem is best used on things that can't otherwise deep strike, like Assault Centurions or aggressors, but it is also good for things that can deepstrike since that gives even more versatility. Special mention for vanguard that then may be able to jump over the screen to hit units behind them. Also, being able to get good firing positions for sub 48" weapons is good too. Looking at you Grav-cannons and Multi-meltas.

To me it seems like "advantageously" here means "out of line of site" at best, and "somewhere in cover" at worst. If the unit is threatening, like a grav dev squad, it is likely to be on the receiving end of a lot of enemy fire power the next turn, unless you can hide it completely, in which case the enemy can move away from it if it is an assault unit, potentially get out of range if it is a shooting unit, and like force it to move with heavy weapons if it does survive the next turn.

I'm not saying it's bad by any means, but i haven't seen a lot of units that maintain their effectiveness if they go second, so i don't think it's worth planning an army around.

I do think there might be something to the idea of making a RG brigade to have a lot of CP, and use the strat as a deployment method to let you deploy large numbers of units wherever you want, but haven't seen any version of it that is particularly convincing.

Guys, sell me on Librarians.

I run a Blood Ravens gunline with Gabriel Angelos, a Lieutenant, and your typical SM shooty units. I would love to throw in a Librarian (who I have proudly painted as Jonah Orion) for fluff reasons but they never seem to do much for me. Sure sometimes they get off a good Deny The Witch but typically the armies I come up against either don't have psykers or they have 3+. Null zone is badass but it's only 6" and I haven't found it super useful in shooty lists so far, am I just using it wrong?

Do any of you run Librarians in gunlines? Do you find them worth the 115 points or so? If you do rate them, what powers do you typically take? Force axe or Force Stave? Mustard or Mayo?

Axe is usually best for Librarians.

Not much to sell on though. Buy one for some powers you might want. You're Blood Angels so buy two. What does the rest of the list look like?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Axe is usually best for Librarians.

Not much to sell on though. Buy one for some powers you might want. You're Blood Angels so buy two. What does the rest of the list look like?

Nah, Blood Ravens are Codex adherent (allegedly.)

I'm running a fairly typical mobile gunline. AC Razorbacks. Scouts for screening. Preds or Devs. A few Dreads. And maybe a Stormtalon or two. RG or UM CT's typically. Might run some Salamander CT's if I ever start running tact squads again.

I just can't seem to justify a Libby.

I love libs. Had a game a few weeks ago where near the end of the game my opponents Hive Tyrant was moving towards my remaining tactical marines and I had a lib in position to intercept and try and block. My opponent was ignoring my lib because it hadn't done much all game, just blocked a few casts of "the horror". Then I rolled an 11 on smite and did 4 mortal wounds to it. Didn't kill it but brought it down to 2 wounds. It was one of those " You will not ignore me!" Moments. Opponent actually stopped moving towards the tacticals and went the other direction back at my lib because suddenly he could not afford that to happen again.

Since then I always try to take one, if for nothing else but support. Also a lib can make a seriously powerful captain beat stick. Salamander Captain on a bike with salamanders mantel and might of hero's and psychic defense (the one that gives a 4+ save vs mortal wounds) makes for a tough charecter. 3+/4++ toughness 7 str 7 (I give him a relic blade) 5 attacks, it's not a deamon prince but it can go toe to toe with a hive tyrant and has a great chance to come out the other side alive.

Azuza001 wrote:
I love libs. Had a game a few weeks ago where near the end of the game my opponents Hive Tyrant was moving towards my remaining tactical marines and I had a lib in position to intercept and try and block. My opponent was ignoring my lib because it hadn't done much all game, just blocked a few casts of "the horror". Then I rolled an 11 on smite and did 4 mortal wounds to it. Didn't kill it but brought it down to 2 wounds. It was one of those " You will not ignore me!" Moments. Opponent actually stopped moving towards the tacticals and went the other direction back at my lib because suddenly he could not afford that to happen again.

Since then I always try to take one, if for nothing else but support. Also a lib can make a seriously powerful captain beat stick. Salamander Captain on a bike with salamanders mantel and might of hero's and psychic defense (the one that gives a 4+ save vs mortal wounds) makes for a tough charecter. 3+/4++ toughness 7 str 7 (I give him a relic blade) 5 attacks, it's not a deamon prince but it can go toe to toe with a hive tyrant and has a great chance to come out the other side alive.

Speaking of that, how does Might of Heroes interact with x2 str weapons?

You multiply then you add. So a powerfist or thunder hammer is str 9. Enough to put a dent in a land raider

What is the general consensus on troops in Salamander armies at the moment (or just marines in general)? I've been doing a lot of testing with 3 melta tactical squads in drop pods and it's never quite worked well enough to justify 250 points each. With ground transports they always take a little too long to be effective.

Intercessors have always been pretty mediocre for me and I have no personal experience with scouts.

I've seen a few people say salamanders troops are superior to other chapters and worth taking but I haven't seen enough out of them to justify them in a competitive sense (although I love to see lots of marines on the table in casual games). What are your thoughts?

I run a minimum of 3 tactical marine 5 man squads with a heavy weapon in my Salamanders army. They are my "bubble wrap" around devastators / whirlwinds / predators. Normally I have been taking them with missile launchers but last time I took plasma cannons and it worked well. The more chances you get to use the chapter tactic the better off you will be is my theory, and even if your moving your still probably going to hit with that one heavy weapon.

Also because of the tactic you don't need to have a leutinant or captain near them so they can function on their own.

I only recently joined up, so forgive me if this was already covered.

Any suggestions for going up against a smite spam army? My BT's ran up against a horde of Tzeentch demons that included a Demon Prince, and a couple other Psykers. It was only a 750pt game, and the other player got some really good rolls on their first round of smites, so it was hard for me to get back on an even footing. I have seen a few posts that mentioned just putting enough troops out front of protect your higher value units, but are there other options? Since BT can't field Psykers, my options are limited.

In the handful of games I have played the past two months I have noticed that my Ironclad is doing some serious work. I run it with the assault launchers, Hurricane & CF/SB combo. Great for melting 1w units, and that CF can do some serious damage if anything gets into CC.

TMTMTPoS wrote:
What is the general consensus on troops in Salamander armies at the moment (or just marines in general)? I've been doing a lot of testing with 3 melta tactical squads in drop pods and it's never quite worked well enough to justify 250 points each. With ground transports they always take a little too long to be effective.

Intercessors have always been pretty mediocre for me and I have no personal experience with scouts.

I've seen a few people say salamanders troops are superior to other chapters and worth taking but I haven't seen enough out of them to justify them in a competitive sense (although I love to see lots of marines on the table in casual games). What are your thoughts?

If running Salamanders I think tactical squads with Lascannons are pretty darn good.

 Karthicus wrote:
I only recently joined up, so forgive me if this was already covered.

Any suggestions for going up against a smite spam army? My BT's ran up against a horde of Tzeentch demons that included a Demon Prince, and a couple other Psykers. It was only a 750pt game, and the other player got some really good rolls on their first round of smites, so it was hard for me to get back on an even footing. I have seen a few posts that mentioned just putting enough troops out front of protect your higher value units, but are there other options? Since BT can't field Psykers, my options are limited.

In the handful of games I have played the past two months I have noticed that my Ironclad is doing some serious work. I run it with the assault launchers, Hurricane & CF/SB combo. Great for melting 1w units, and that CF can do some serious damage if anything gets into CC.

Smite spam is a tournament list, and Black Templars are not. It's going to be an uphill battle. Hell, even just going up against 3 psykers is uphill for BT. Smite Spam is not something you're going to win against without Guard allies at any points level, templar troops are just simply too expensive.

I used to have the opinion that BT made out pretty well in this codex, but now that a few other codexes have come out since then I feel like we got the weakest chapter trait, warlord trait, and stratagem. This goes for a lot of Marine armies too though, the traits in Admech and Guard are just straight up superior to the majority of Space Marine chapter tactics. Kind of sad IMO. I'll put it to you guys this way, if I see Magnus, Mortarion, Girlyman, Cawl, or Celestine + Guard on the other side of the board I might as well just not play that game with Templars. Especially with Mortarion, I literally cannot think of anything that can possibly to compete with him or take him down in a fashion that doesn't have my entire army shooting at him and maybe taking him down to 1/3rd of his wounds.

I really want to play my templars, been playing my admech stuff lately, and seeing the power level of the last 3 dexes that have come out have just left me rather bitter.

Tactical Marines are still lame even Salamanders buffing their lone Heavy Weapon. Salamander Devastators are a different story, though. Cherub + Signum for days equates dead models!

Sniper Scouts are mildly fun with Salamanders. With a Lieutenant near, you increase your chances even more for mortal wounds if you like gimmicky stuff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tactical Marines are still lame even Salamanders buffing their lone Heavy Weapon. Salamander Devastators are a different story, though. Cherub + Signum for days equates dead models!

Sniper Scouts are mildly fun with Salamanders. With a Lieutenant near, you increase your chances even more for mortal wounds if you like gimmicky stuff.

I disagree, I find my tacticals do a great job when ever I use them with my Salamanders. With a single laz cannon or missile launcher you get a small squad that can hold objectives on your side of the board easy, move and still reliabily shoot with their heavy weapon, and are not as "big a target" as a dev squad is but just as effective.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to turn this into another debate about if tacticals suck or not, or whether there are better options, but for what they cost and what they are they do a great job for me. Give them razorbacks with assault cannons and you have a mobile force that can get where they need to be reliably. Out of all chapter tactics I think salamanders works best for these guys if your needed extra heavy fire Support.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:
I only recently joined up, so forgive me if this was already covered.

Any suggestions for going up against a smite spam army? My BT's ran up against a horde of Tzeentch demons that included a Demon Prince, and a couple other Psykers. It was only a 750pt game, and the other player got some really good rolls on their first round of smites, so it was hard for me to get back on an even footing. I have seen a few posts that mentioned just putting enough troops out front of protect your higher value units, but are there other options? Since BT can't field Psykers, my options are limited.

In the handful of games I have played the past two months I have noticed that my Ironclad is doing some serious work. I run it with the assault launchers, Hurricane & CF/SB combo. Great for melting 1w units, and that CF can do some serious damage if anything gets into CC.

Smite spam is a tournament list, and Black Templars are not. It's going to be an uphill battle. Hell, even just going up against 3 psykers is uphill for BT. Smite Spam is not something you're going to win against without Guard allies at any points level, templar troops are just simply too expensive.

I used to have the opinion that BT made out pretty well in this codex, but now that a few other codexes have come out since then I feel like we got the weakest chapter trait, warlord trait, and stratagem. This goes for a lot of Marine armies too though, the traits in Admech and Guard are just straight up superior to the majority of Space Marine chapter tactics. Kind of sad IMO. I'll put it to you guys this way, if I see Magnus, Mortarion, Girlyman, Cawl, or Celestine + Guard on the other side of the board I might as well just not play that game with Templars. Especially with Mortarion, I literally cannot think of anything that can possibly to compete with him or take him down in a fashion that doesn't have my entire army shooting at him and maybe taking him down to 1/3rd of his wounds.

I really want to play my templars, been playing my admech stuff lately, and seeing the power level of the last 3 dexes that have come out have just left me rather bitter.

I feel like you are dead on with this post, but I want to believe you are wrong. I'm going to give it a few more matches and see how it goes. I think what really hurt was the fact that you can still smite units that are locked in melee. With a horde army you can slow down an enemy unit and spam it into oblivion. Sad day.

Psykers feel very powerful overall. I played another match against some Ynnari last week using his Chaos army (he wanted to play test his two armies) and the Eldar HQ kept the match very close with his constant soul burst, which really felt OP with the Ynnari army special rule. I feel like BT should have gotten a little more to combat Psykers, and I feel their 1cp strat is lacking.

All that being said, while it is an uphill battle I think it's something that can be overcome. I believe it would require some really crafty army lists that have long range horde clearing to quickly remove that bubble around said Psykers, or perhaps a lot of deep strike. I'm currently putting together a box of Revers to give that a go. Depending how they setup, in theory you could split that 10man squad of revers up and possibly get 2 casters locked up round 1? This would really depend on if you go first... but drop within 9". You can move up that 6", toss that shock grenade, get some shots in, charge in and clean up.

Perhaps that would be easy to defend against in the current meta. My lack of action table time might be showing.

Tips: do not bring terminators against your smite spam opponent.
He will just wreck them.

I used tac marines with plasma combi plasma and the scions of Guilliman stratagem and it worked quite well for me, being able to shoot overcharged plasma without any risk

The one game I played vs the smite spam found that a well placed squad of snipers can make them think twice about getting those casters too close. It wouldn't make a difference against the squads who can cast it, but those characters? That same game I had a turn where my snipers dished out 4 hits, with an additional 2 mortal wounds on their Demon Prince.

My BT will find a way to purge the heretic casters....

Hey guys, this is the list I've been running recently playing against a lot of Guard, Nids, and Genestealer. Been wanting to shave something to change Marneus into Guiliman. Any suggestions?


+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ HQ +

Marneus Calgar [10 PL, 200pts]: Terminator Armour

Sergeant Chronus [11 PL, 233pts]
. Predator: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 75pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Scout Squad [6 PL, 75pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

+ Elites +

Vanguard Veteran Squad [7 PL, 107pts]
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Power sword
. Veteran Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol, Power sword

+ Heavy Support +

Predator [9 PL, 192pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

Predator [9 PL, 192pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

++ Spearhead Detachment (Imperium - FW Adeptus Astartes) [32 PL, 618pts] ++

+ Heavy Support +

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 309pts]: 2x Heavy flamer, 2x Storm cannon array

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 309pts]: 2x Heavy flamer, 2x Storm cannon array

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [73 PL, 1380pts] ++

++ Total: [105 PL, 1998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Drop the Vets, Snipers and Calgar to grab Rusty Glitterbomb and a cheap HQ, probably a tech marine. I'll look closer tonight but it seems like the options are pretty limited.

Edit: Okay, looks like you're going to be probably be stuck at one Spearhead detachment, so that eliminates the need for a second HQ. The vets have to go, they are pretty out of place in this list. (+107), that get's you almost there, so let's drop one of the Scout squads(+183) and drop Calgar for Rusty (+23). Now at this point if you drop the Sniper Rifles (which I think most of us have found to be fairly underwhelming) we're almost up to bringing those Scouts back to expand a no-deepstrike bubble around your gunline (+43), dropping the Storm Bolters and HKM from Chronus and the other Predators should put you at exactly (+55), enough to get a Scout squad back in.