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 Karthicus wrote:
The one game I played vs the smite spam found that a well placed squad of snipers can make them think twice about getting those casters too close. It wouldn't make a difference against the squads who can cast it, but those characters? That same game I had a turn where my snipers dished out 4 hits, with an additional 2 mortal wounds on their Demon Prince.

My BT will find a way to purge the heretic casters....

Mostly you just need something between the smites and your good stuff. Scouts and Rhinos seem like the most obvious choices, though most vehicles work pretty well, and the larger the game the more points you have to add padding like that to your lists, with 2k being the sweet spot in my opinion.

What's everyone's experience with Tigurius?
He seems like a flat improvement over a Power Armored Librarian, costing about 30% but knowing an extra power, re-rolling failed test, and (possibly best of all) giving a -1 to hit buff on a nearby unit.

The main problem I see is that Power Armor Librarians aren't very good to begin with, so 'upgrading them' isn't necessarily worth it.

 tpogs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Axe is usually best for Librarians.

Not much to sell on though. Buy one for some powers you might want. You're Blood Angels so buy two. What does the rest of the list look like?

Nah, Blood Ravens are Codex adherent (allegedly.)

I'm running a fairly typical mobile gunline. AC Razorbacks. Scouts for screening. Preds or Devs. A few Dreads. And maybe a Stormtalon or two. RG or UM CT's typically. Might run some Salamander CT's if I ever start running tact squads again.

I just can't seem to justify a Libby.

So far my Librarian was mostly been useful for his hot rolling of Deny the Witch. But I've gotten a few good buff spells off, and once a double 6 Smite nailed the a daemonprince for only one wound on perils. That was all pre-codex, I haven't used him since I got the book. I got a game coming up this weekend though and I plan on bringing a Primaris Librarian with Might of Heroes and Veil of Time, my plan is to use the Libriarian to buff the crap out of inceptors, then charge em in. Or I'll buff the Dreadnought, but I think I'll get the most bang from my buck on the Inceptors. But the Space Marine psychic spells frankly don't seem that good to me. I'd almost rather just bring an IG detachment with some astropaths.

Seems to me like the only real convincing reasons to take a SM lib are for null zone vs things like primarchs and terminators, and veil of time if you want a unit to reliably deep strike and charge something. Everything else they offer is either underwhelming, or obtainable elsewhere for cheaper.

How is everyone fairing against the new Guard codex? Previously I was bringing a quad las pred and 4 las and 4 missile launchers. Do we think this is enough dakka or should we be brining something to deep strike and attempt to charge the russes?

 Sonminiser wrote:
How is everyone fairing against the new Guard codex? Previously I was bringing a quad las pred and 4 las and 4 missile launchers. Do we think this is enough dakka or should we be brining something to deep strike and attempt to charge the russes?

I'm honestly not sure how effective that would really be. Assuming there aren't any conscripts in the way, and there probably will be, the russes are also likely to have heavy flamers on them, which are pretty annoying to charge. I think our main strategy is just going to be to try and outshoot the tanks. Ravenguard are pretty hard for guard to shoot at since they mostly hit on 5s, and Roboute lists may be able to kill enough in the first few turns to make it work. I'm not sure there are really any other "good" space marine lists worth talking about.

 Sonminiser wrote:
How is everyone fairing against the new Guard codex? Previously I was bringing a quad las pred and 4 las and 4 missile launchers. Do we think this is enough dakka or should we be brining something to deep strike and attempt to charge the russes?

Guard have a lot of options, its going to depend on what your opponent is bringing. An intelligent opponent isn't going to let you deepstrike and charge any of his backline stuff. Do you know what styles your opponents play? There's worlds of differences between a balanced infantry company with support units versus a conscripts bubble wrapping super heavy tanks. What works against one won't work against the other.

Its also going to depend on the objectives a lot. Guard make for some great static gunlines, but that doesn't necessarily translate to winning objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
Seems to me like the only real convincing reasons to take a SM lib are for null zone vs things like primarchs and terminators, and veil of time if you want a unit to reliably deep strike and charge something. Everything else they offer is either underwhelming, or obtainable elsewhere for cheaper.

Null zone just seems so situational to me. The two buff spells would be useful just about all the time in my experience. I wish Marines got the +1 save one.

I actually think we need to consider Deep Strike Vanguard or LC Terminators to nullify infantry shooting and focus on using Preds at the moment. Just off the top of my head. Won't be playing again until this weekend so hopefully I'll have cooked up something at that point.

Might of Heroes became less appealing after I read that +1 Strength is applied after the x2 strength of fists/hammers etc rather than before. It can still be quite good though.

Bremon wrote:
Might of Heroes became less appealing after I read that +1 Strength is applied after the x2 strength of fists/hammers etc rather than before. It can still be quite good though.

That is actually wrong you add strength and then you apply weapon modifier. Might plus hammer = 10. Salamander trait can swing at 12 with might.


It's the first point in the designers commentary. Apply multiply divide and then add subtract to the characteristic and then apply the weapon modifier.

...thanks! That puts MoH solidly back into the options list for my Primaris Librarian (which I really didn’t have fun assembling).

Bremon wrote:
...thanks! That puts MoH solidly back into the options list for my Primaris Librarian (which I really didn’t have fun assembling).

I'm thinking of picking him up, what was the issue with assembly? Just proxying a spare LT for him right now.

Took the following BT list (We discussed a few pages back) to a local ITC tournament.





Went 2-1, only loss was to the person who won the tournament.

First round vs Dark Angels
Relic mission

Roughly;
Knight
Gravis captain
10 sniper scouts
10 tacs
10 devs
10 scouts
7 deathwing terms
1 JP captain

Went second, improperly screened my gunline and he missed his DS charge by 1". I lost a razorback, scouts and a tarantula to shooting. In return I picked up the knight and all the terminators+JP captain. From there it was me slowly grinding forward and wiping him out. Tabled him bottom of four or five.



Round 2 vs Thousand Sons
KP based on PL

Roughly;
Magnus
Ahriman
10 tzaangors
8 1k sons with flamers
5 1k sons
2x sorcerers
2x rhinos
2x heldrakes
1x maulerfiend

I deployed all my crusader squads, scouts and razorbacks as best as I could to screen my predators and make it difficult for him to consolidate into my gunline after his first turn charges inevitably wrecked my screen. I used BT stratagem to shut down Magnus invuln buff. He did exactly what I expected. I lost some squads and I think 2 razorbacks, but managed to keep 1 heldrake locked with scouts. My turn I killshot and took down Magnus and a heldrake. JP captain used his BT tactic to make a 8" charge into his locked heldrake and smash it down to half. From there on I adjusted my screen to stop the maulerfiend, and turn 3 or so I dropped vets out to start pounding the rubrics. Moving CM up to support my infantry, the extra 3" was clutch for rerolls on preds. He managed to get a rhino into my backfield but, again, I was able to keep 2 preds shooting almost all the way to the end. Game ended on bottom of 5 with just 3 tzaangors left on the field, hiding behind a building with my CM about to wipe them. Cost me a major victory, unfortunately.



Third Round vs Chaos soup
6 objectivess with 1x 4pt, 1x 1pt, and 4x 2pt



Roughly
Magnus
3x Malefic lords
changeling
sorcerer
3x10 horrors
2x10 cultists
1x40 cultists
1x3 oblits
kharbydiss
2x9 berserkers
1x dark apostle
1x champ

Board had lots of large LOS blocking terrain. I actually got first turn but magnus was far corner (Vanguard deploy) so I couldn't reach with tanks. Used scouts to deny DS, killed most of 2 horror units, but not much. Changeling and some good saves on his part meant I did not much. He kept berserkers off, but brought in oblits. Used VOTLW and Slaanesh power to double tap one of my preds. I rolled amazingly and survived with 2 wounds. Shut down warptime on the cultists, since Magnus was still out of LOS, though in range. Lost most of my screening units to smite spam. In return I finished two horror squads, got a malefic lord and the oblits. His turn berserkers land, he makes 4/5 charges on 10+ and is just outside my pred flank. Shut down warptime again, since cultists were about 11" from my lines. My turn magnus is front and center, but can't afford to shoot him. Despite killshot, I barely manage to take out kharbydiss. I put two razorbacks, half a pred, all 6 vets, the chapter master into berserkers and kill 4. His saves were on fire. I picked up about 15~20 cultists. I charge berserkers, fail to do anything with first vet squad, he counter attacks and I fail 80% of my saves and lose every single vet. Dice have totally given up on me. I concede since I have no real chance of winning, and am too tired to try to drag another hour and a half into a possible minor loss. Even if the berserkers hand't been blessed by khorne himself, I probably would have lost still. Board had perfect LOS blocking coverage at distances that fit magnus movement and were just at smite range. In hindsight I could have used the auspex scan on a crusader squad vs the oblits, overcharged plasma may have picked one up. Alpha legion on a bunch of his stuff combined with changeling is really rough, even with rerolls. Having 3s just flat miss with no chance to reroll was extremely painful. If he had put berserkers down turn 2 on the far flank I intentionally left open, I may have had a chance. However, he played well, had a favorable matchup, had the 4 pt objective on his side, and the dice put an exclamation point on the match. I think I lose that one 80% of the time. Maybe if it had been 12" deployment with me having first turn I could've dumpstered Magnus out the gate and had a good shot, but, no such luck.

Interesting to think about, an UM player using Guilleman, 3 preds, a fire raptor and a terminus ultra got wiped out by the same list in half the time. I think having the 6 infantry squads as screens and the large number of units in general is very useful, despite giving up the +1 to go first.



Overall I think this list is very strong. The only army I wasn't confident I could beat was the one I lost to, and the overall winner. Every unit performed as expected. I could see getting to the upper tables at a larger GT, but the list has a massive weakness to smite spam. Hordes could be a problem, depending on the army and what else is with the horde. The strongest things in the list were absolutely the bike chapter master and the preds. I would upgrade chapter master to thunder hammer, and maybe drop bike for JP. The mobility was a factor in every game, and the larger base helps with aura size. Company vets put out lots of dice and ate a 3 damage smite for him as well. The only thing I wished I had more of was scouts, though idk how I'd fit them. The crusaders were used to screen in 2 games, though when they actually got to shoot they were doing good damage. I was considering going heavier on the tarantulas, as enemies who charge them but dont wipe them can still be shot, but have to fall back to move away. The BT helm and strat were pivotal in both of my wins, and key to me staying alive in my last fight. I rerolled something like 3 or 4 charges with the chapter tactic, as well. I used all of my CP in every match.

I ended up in 3rd, the person I beat in round 2 was 2nd place because he had 2 major victories. That stung a bit, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles, I suppose.

Nice reports. You guys don’t use nearly as much terrain as I would expect. We use more smaller pieces.

Hey, so what’s the deal with auto bolt rifles and bolt carbines? Same stat line but bolt carbines are free...

 argonak wrote:

Bremon wrote:
...thanks! That puts MoH solidly back into the options list for my Primaris Librarian (which I really didn’t have fun assembling).

I'm thinking of picking him up, what was the issue with assembly? Just proxying a spare LT for him right now.

It wasn’t horrible, and the end result looks great; it’s just a different process than I’m used to (ie; glue legs together, glue torso together, glue legs and torso together, etc.). This was like...glue leg to piece of chest, glue other leg to piece of back, glue two halves together and hope your dryfitting worked out as you expected.

I tend to run a Primaris Librarian. I'm also a bit unclear whether he's required. But you have to take something and he does seem useful. I didn't have any trouble building the kit, I must say. I think it's pretty cool.

The main reason to run a librarian is null zone - which is indeed situational. The thing is, when the situation comes up and you want it, it's fantastic. I had my libby hiding behind a chaplain dread up against GKs recently and they smashed two dreadknights and Draigo.

The difficult thing is that you need an 8 to cast null zone. When needed, it's worth using a CP to up your odds of casting it. It really does make a huge difference when an important enemy model goes from having a 3++ to no save at all.

The rest of the time he does reasonable work casting smite and might of heroes. MoH twins well with null zone and my crimson fist primaris captain with the fist of vengeance (made out of the store birthday kit). It's pretty nice with any hard-hitting melee units, so centurions and aggressors like it too.

He's actually quite badass in his own right as well, and casting might of heroes on himself to turn his power sword S5 turns him into a respectable beatstick for his price.

I don't know if I'd describe the librarian as an auto-take. It works in my army, as I've got a repulsor he can deploy in and I feel like he does a job for me. I'm running a battalion so I need two HQs and he is a decent fit. A lieutenant would be a reasonable alternative - more of a general buff than the situationally massive help that null zone provides - though lieutenants themselves aren't nearly as fighty as librarians.

 argonak wrote:
Nice reports. You guys don’t use nearly as much terrain as I would expect. We use more smaller pieces.

Hey, so what’s the deal with auto bolt rifles and bolt carbines? Same stat line but bolt carbines are free...

Probably Because different units use them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Nice reports. You guys don’t use nearly as much terrain as I would expect. We use more smaller pieces.

Hey, so what’s the deal with auto bolt rifles and bolt carbines? Same stat line but bolt carbines are free...

Probably Because different units use them.

True... kind of. They are two units with identical profiles. Reivers with carbines are flat out better than intercessors with auto bolt rifles (stun grenades, better pistols, lame scary hats), and 3 points less per model.

You can argue that the intercessors become better if you buy them an auxiliary grenade launcher and/or power sword, and that as troops they buy you more CPs, but then the reivers have options too.

The end result is that auto bolt rifles are a pretty poor choice for intercessors, but carbines are a decent choice for reivers.

I tend to think that 5 deep striking reivers with carbines and a sword for the sergeant would be a decent unit to bring. Point for point, reivers spit out the same number of shots as inceptors - though with worse ap and strength. But you get three times as many bodies so your survivability and cc killiness is far better. A tough-ish unit that can be dropped on an objective is a useful thing to have, especially in maelstrom missions.

You could even give them grapples and then purposely place objectives in high up places near board edges for them to grab.

I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot

I hear you on the elite competition... kind of. The thing is, you can take a hell of a lot of elite slots pretty easily, so it's hard to run out.

In fact more often I find that having a lot of units from one FO slot is a good thing, as it lets you unlock more CPs. Reivers probably should be fast attack, I agree, but it's not such a bad thing that they aren't.

Anyway I'm not suggesting for a moment that reivers are this awesome unit you should always take. I think they can do a job.

Mandragola wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot

I hear you on the elite competition... kind of. The thing is, you can take a hell of a lot of elite slots pretty easily, so it's hard to run out.

In fact more often I find that having a lot of units from one FO slot is a good thing, as it lets you unlock more CPs. Reivers probably should be fast attack, I agree, but it's not such a bad thing that they aren't.

Anyway I'm not suggesting for a moment that reivers are this awesome unit you should always take. I think they can do a job.

I seriously wish they were fast attack so i could actually take a primarus only brigade.

they are an assault marine according to icon as aggressors are actually dev as well.

 Desubot wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'd say carbines are the preferred loadout for reivers seeing as how lightning claw vanguard vets have 5 more attacks, so on their weapons and rerolls to wound.
But! Move reivers to fast attack and then I'd say they are fine. There's just too much competition for elite slots in my opinion
There's better melee options and better shooting options in the elite slot

I hear you on the elite competition... kind of. The thing is, you can take a hell of a lot of elite slots pretty easily, so it's hard to run out.

In fact more often I find that having a lot of units from one FO slot is a good thing, as it lets you unlock more CPs. Reivers probably should be fast attack, I agree, but it's not such a bad thing that they aren't.

Anyway I'm not suggesting for a moment that reivers are this awesome unit you should always take. I think they can do a job.

I seriously wish they were fast attack so i could actually take a primarus only brigade.

they are an assault marine according to icon as aggressors are actually dev as well.

I hear that. A primaris brigade is a relatively insane proposition, but in general the SM codex is weak in fast attack. The units there aren't great, and there aren't very many of them.

One option would be to do a bunch of converting to stick reivers on bikes, and call them scout bikers. I've stuck primaris guys in the cockpits of my Xiphon and Storm Raven, and put aggressor heads on my assault centurions, to make them fit in visually.

My Xiphon pilot doesn't have any feet, but you can't tell that from the outside - and who needs feet when you have wings?

That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.

A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?

Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:



Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"

You could put kit bash primarus in land speeders and take 3 for mobile firepower, that would fit OK for the 3 fast attack units.

Do people expect TLAC Razorbacks to get nerfed? Or nerfed beyond the TLAC costing 42 instead of 35? I mean, even if it's one of SM's most efficient units, it's not like its THAT uber nor do marines appear to be an overpowered army in need of a nerf.

bort wrote:
Do people expect TLAC Razorbacks to get nerfed? Or nerfed beyond the TLAC costing 42 instead of 35? I mean, even if it's one of SM's most efficient units, it's not like its THAT uber nor do marines appear to be an overpowered army in need of a nerf.

I highly doubt it. at least not untill next year if another round of indexs dont come out.

I don't see how they can adjust the price of the TLAC Razorback (which aren't even broken, BTW) without making the other options too expensive. That they are being used as a Battle tank rather than an APC is mostly due to the other battle tanks outside the Quad Las Predator(which is still beaten by two Twin Las Razorbacks) being kinda crap. If they buffed the Vindicator (it should do d6 shots base, 3d3 against 10+) and made the Predator T8, we would be in business. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing the T8 tanks bumped up to a 2+ Sv(Vindicator, Hunter, and Stalker). The Razorback and Rhino can stay at T7 since they were historically lightly armored compared to the Predator and Whirlwind.

Also, Traceoftoxin, put your giant images behind spoilers. They really mess up the thread view.

 ultimentra wrote:
That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.

A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?

Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:

Spoiler:

2k points, Black Templar Double Battalion + Spearhead:

Battalion 1:
HQ's- Emperor's Champion, Captain w/ Power axe+Bolt Pistol (Crusader Helm)
Troops- 3 Crusader squads
Squad 1: Melta, Combi Melta, Lascannon
Squad 2: Plasma, Combi Plasma
Squad 3: Plasma Combi Plasma

Dedicated- 2 Twin Lascannon Razorbacks

Heavy- LRC

Flyer- Storm Raven, TLAC, Heavy bolters, Hurrican bolters, Missiles

Battalion 2:
HQ's- Captain w/ Power Sword+Bolt Pistol, Lieutenant w/ Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
Troops-
Crusader Squad: Flamer, Combi Flamer
Scout Squad: Bolters + HB
Scout Squad: Bolters + HB

Spearhead:
HQ- Lieutenant w/ Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
Heavy-
Rapier Quad Launcher
Rapier Quad Launcher
Rapier Quad Launcher

Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"

I generally do 2 tarantulas near my predators/chapter master, and 1 on the far side of the deployment zone. Without the CM buffs, the tarantulas dont do much damage, but people still like to go after them so it serves as 27 pts of force splitting. I like to put them on the front line of deployment to help screen. As I mentioned, you can shoot anything within 1" of them, but if the enemy charges them, they can't just walk away without falling back. So, they make great screening units for very little cost.

I had 1 scout squad of each type. Overall I think the shotguns were the best, but, almost all the scouts did was control boardspace and die. Which is what I wanted them to do. So, that was fine. If you wanted them for objectives I'd take bolters or sniper rifles, though I think scout snipers are far too expensive (15 pts vs 7 pts for ratlings or elysian snipers, both are BS3+!!!).

Crusaders are not good at melee and never will be. Double flamer is decent. I use Emp Champ in a rhino with a double flamer squad for casual games, and it's a decent counter-assault unit, but there's so many better options. EC does do serious work vs characters though, I've had him 1 shot demon princes. Something you should keep in mind with your list.

I think if you want to do gunline style play you should drop the stormraven/LRC and move points around for 3x preds. If you want to play aggressive you should invest in company vets over melee crusaders. Either way, LRC are super vulnerable to being tied up, and you just don't have the means to stop it. I've used them 3-4 times in 8th, and while their firepower is pretty good, their best strength is being able to safely deliver assault units where you need them.

Yeah Land Raiders are definitely more viable than before but they have too much a risk of getting tied up. Try out a Spartan and see how it works out.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
That's an awesome list Traceoftoxin, I think I'm going to try and build towards something similar. Chapter approved is right around the corner though, so I may wait on buying 2 razorbacks and a bunch of tarantulas because you never know what's going to get nerfed and buffed. I really like the idea behind the list though.

A couple questions, where did you typically deploy your tarantulas? On objectives? Also what weapons did you give your scouts? Bolters? Shotguns?

Here's something I'm thinking about trying out in the near future:

Spoiler:

2k points, Black Templar Double Battalion + Spearhead:

Battalion 1:
HQ's- Emperor's Champion, Captain w/ Power axe+Bolt Pistol (Crusader Helm)
Troops- 3 Crusader squads
Squad 1: Melta, Combi Melta, Lascannon
Squad 2: Plasma, Combi Plasma
Squad 3: Plasma Combi Plasma

Dedicated- 2 Twin Lascannon Razorbacks

Heavy- LRC

Flyer- Storm Raven, TLAC, Heavy bolters, Hurrican bolters, Missiles

Battalion 2:
HQ's- Captain w/ Power Sword+Bolt Pistol, Lieutenant w/ Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
Troops-
Crusader Squad: Flamer, Combi Flamer
Scout Squad: Bolters + HB
Scout Squad: Bolters + HB

Spearhead:
HQ- Lieutenant w/ Power Sword + Bolt Pistol
Heavy-
Rapier Quad Launcher
Rapier Quad Launcher
Rapier Quad Launcher

Scouts sit on objectives, one pair of Captain/Lieutenant babysit the artillery, and the other go in the LRC with the plasma and melta squads. Emperor's Champion goes in the Storm Raven with the flamer squad to drop into the enemy deployment zone and say "hey look at me! I'm scary!"

I generally do 2 tarantulas near my predators/chapter master, and 1 on the far side of the deployment zone. Without the CM buffs, the tarantulas dont do much damage, but people still like to go after them so it serves as 27 pts of force splitting. I like to put them on the front line of deployment to help screen. As I mentioned, you can shoot anything within 1" of them, but if the enemy charges them, they can't just walk away without falling back. So, they make great screening units for very little cost.

I had 1 scout squad of each type. Overall I think the shotguns were the best, but, almost all the scouts did was control boardspace and die. Which is what I wanted them to do. So, that was fine. If you wanted them for objectives I'd take bolters or sniper rifles, though I think scout snipers are far too expensive (15 pts vs 7 pts for ratlings or elysian snipers, both are BS3+!!!).

Crusaders are not good at melee and never will be. Double flamer is decent. I use Emp Champ in a rhino with a double flamer squad for casual games, and it's a decent counter-assault unit, but there's so many better options. EC does do serious work vs characters though, I've had him 1 shot demon princes. Something you should keep in mind with your list.

I think if you want to do gunline style play you should drop the stormraven/LRC and move points around for 3x preds. If you want to play aggressive you should invest in company vets over melee crusaders. Either way, LRC are super vulnerable to being tied up, and you just don't have the means to stop it. I've used them 3-4 times in 8th, and while their firepower is pretty good, their best strength is being able to safely deliver assault units where you need them.

I'm definitely considering picking up some Predators here soon, I just don't have any at the moment. Currently in the works for a trade a third Rhino chassis. So soon I will have 2 Razorbacks, 1 Rhino, in terms of those types of vehicles. I have 3 drop pods? Yeah... naw...

Thanks for the words about how you work your tarantula guns and scouts. I know for sure Crusaders are no good at melee, the flamers are more there to clear away a path for the Emp's Champ to do his thing. Currently, in similar styled lists my tactic is to hybrid shooting/melee style army that gets up close, fires away, and charges in with the Emperor's Champion and some dreadnoughts, meanwhile captains, lieutenants or Helbrecht give rerolls to the LRC, plasma squads, and Melta squads gathering around him in a big bubble.

As I continue to theorycraft I look forward to getting your feedback! One more question, as for a CC unit to put inside the LRC, what do you recommend? Currently I don't put a CC unit in there at all, I actually use it to get 2 or 3 squads of Crusaders outfitted with all sorts of weaponry at close/mid range, then disembark with everyone and open fire. I've used TH/SS terminators three times, not convinced even with Helbrecht giving them Strength 10. 2 attacks a piece just isn't enough IMO even with re-rolls.

I really want to try out assault centurions, but the horrid models keep me from doing it. I won't try it until I can find a decent looking proxy/kitbash for some close combat dragonslayers.

Eventually I want to be able to build this army to a point where I have lists for both casual play, and tournament play. Your list looks really good right now. Again, I may wait for Chapter Approved for some heavy purchases.