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It really reminds me of Bloodbowl. Complex but with specific rules that are clear (other than some syntax issues) and cover most variables.

Angel_of_Rust wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:"Combat" entries are what you use when you use the weapon in close combat.

I understand this, my point is the "Combat" entry on the left side of the page lists S7 AP 5 Combat, Pistol 1 RENDING,Get's Hot! under the example of Plasma Pistol. If you look on the right side of the page, in the chart of pistols it is listed as S7 AP 5 Combat, Pistol , Get's Hot. It can't both have and not have rending so one of the listings must be in error.

And while I agree with you about the Mirrorsword issue, it seems kind of silly.

Good catch on the Plasma Pistol, I hadn't noticed that. I'd say yeah, it's just another of several typos. Hopefully this is the real deal and it will get fixed in the final version.

On the Mirrorsword thing, yeah, I think anything prior to this ruleset that has the "this weapon ignores armor saves" should probably go ahead and be defined as power weapons. The parry thing is kind of...meh. I don't really see the purpose it serves. Power weapons are already balanced against other things like powerfists and such by having a reduced point cost. I don't really see that they need to buff it any.

AresX8 wrote:Alpha Strike is something a unit can perform against an enemy unit already in combat.


Say I have unit A tied up with your unit A from a previous combat. I bring in my unit B into the assault with your unit A. Since your unit A was already in combat, my unit B can strike at initiative 10.

It can also be used by a unit that has at least half of it models in terrain, is not locked in combat already, and is being assaulted to give themselves I10.

There is also a rule called Combat drill on pg 60 that deals with Alpha Strike, but I haven't really got that one figured out yet.

Most of the Combat Drill text is a copy/paste error, I think. Only pay attention to the bottom paragraph. I'm not sure if it's a standard rule anyone can use or a special permission only rule like Overwatch.

Im loving the fact that vehicles can finally run over infantry, annoys me all the time in 5th.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Most of the Combat Drill text is a copy/paste error, I think. Only pay attention to the bottom paragraph. I'm not sure if it's a standard rule anyone can use or a special permission only rule like Overwatch.

It looks like it's usable to everyone - it's not in one of the sections marked as special use only. It seems to primarily be a way of speeding up the game - it just lets you voluntarily lower your squad's initiative to the initiative of the lowest member and roll all your attacks at once. The only tactical advantage it actually gives is that it might force saturation of an armor group during wound allocation. Mostly though, I think it'll just be used to roll dice faster.

Yeah, I think you're right. It's nice to have that as a legal option - in 5th it was always annoying to roll everything other than the powerfist first.

And just to double check, none of the opposing player's units count as stationary during the first player's turn during the first game cycle, right?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Miniscule by comparison to this. If this were true, it would be the largest single change in any GW core game design since 1998, when 3E came out.

It doesn't seem that far out from the recent edition of fantasy which was regarded as a huge change. Fantasy also needed it a hell of a lot less then 40k does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Which is why GW probably tried these rules and discarded them. A version transition where the entire metagame is thrown into chaos is not really int their best interests.

A large shift in the metagame sells a lot of models encouraging players to field builds that aren't the cookie cutter crap that fifth has developed into. Whether its in their long term interests is up for hyperbolic debate since none of you are clairvoyant, but in the short term edition changes almost always bring significant profits in tabletop gaming, card gaming, and PnP games.

I just realized I was reading every single post of yours now, Shuma. I totally agree! Guess I gotta take you off ignore. lol Not sure if I've changed or you have but, gimme five!

Don't worry I'll probably be banned again next week. This forum has an aversion to reality.

otakutaylor wrote:I've tried to read through the rules a couple of times to find these answers, but I can't seem to.

1. If my unit of retributors has been locked in close combat for 2 cycles a squad of gaunts. (dunno how they survived, they just did)
My turn starts and in the movement phase neither the gaunts on their previous turn nor my retributors on this turn have made a move action such as charge or engage.
Assault finally finished with my retri's forcing the nids to fall back.
The nids succeed on escaping sweeping advance and run away, and my girls consolidate.
Now that it is my shooting phase, are my sisters considered to be stationary?
Are the gaunts considered to be stationary?
Neither of us technically made a move action in our respective last movement phase, only consolidations so far which do not count as movement.

If yes, we're stationary, I can fire my heavy bolters AND the gaunts are at ev2 thanks to standing "still"
if no, I can't fire my heavy weapons despite not moving in my phase, and the nids are at ev3 as normal.

As i understand it no, for you to be able to use heavy weapons, you must be able to perform Stationary actions, wich you can't do before regaining Combat Stadiness in your Consolidation phase, thats how i get it.

And even if i'm wrong, a Fall back, is still a type of move, so those gaunts doesn't count as standing still.

3. I know there's plenty of rules on multi-trageting when it comes to shooting multiple targets, but is it written anywhere that you have to shoot the same unit you assaulted?
Since 5th says you have to assault the unit you shot at, I figured I'd ask if the reverse was true.
Example: I assault some guardsmen, I win combat, they die or fallback, am I required to shoot the fleeing guardsmen squad or may i shoot at something else instead?

Din't see anything of the like,might be wrong though.

By what i've seen so far there is no stipulation at necessarily shooting at the same unit you've assaulted - especially since it's quite possible for you to do an engage move, wipe out the unit in CC, then consolidate and be allowed to shoot...well the unit you assaulted is dust, so you'd effectively lose a shooting phase. This version of the rules seems to want to pack as much action in 6 turns as possible, with BOTH players taking massive casualties from the word Go. It'll make for more intense games, more fun, and less feelings of 'why did i even set my models up, i'm the only one packing them back in my bag' that some 5th ed games turn into.

AresX8 wrote:I like how Monoliths got a major buff. When you look at how powerful they are, then look back to see its point cost reduction, and the fact that stuff can assault out of the portal, and it can deep strike without scattering.... man are we gonna be seeing a lot more of them.

It is the perfect plan to sell new models that nobody will use after a short period of time. First release new codex, giving the monolith a nerf and adding cheap annihilation barges that many will want to use in their heavy slot. Fast forward six months or so, after the old necron players have traded/sold their monoliths and purchased annihilation barges and maybe a few doomsday arks, bring out sixth edition, making the monolith the best heavy support choice again, prompting the new necron players to purchase monoliths and shelf their barges/arks, and old necron players that traded/sold their 'liths to want to buy new ones.

McNinja wrote:Things happen quite a while out. Video games don't get completed on May 4th then shipped to stores May 7th, there's a three to four month period where the code is copied, discs are produced, cases are manufactured, and games are shipped.

actually games can take less then a month. code being copied takes less then an hour, pressing disks is fun to watch, they crank them out, cases are pre done, art is just printed and done... even more so if there is a release date and store shelf space bought, though most companies don't do that.


books, no idea how long that takes, i didn't work making books

either way, interesting read. i'll just play what the book says when it comes out (the few games i play a year)

Maelstrom808 wrote:

It can also be used by a unit that has at least half of it models in terrain, is not locked in combat already, and is being assaulted to give themselves I10.

There is also a rule called Combat drill on pg 60 that deals with Alpha Strike, but I haven't really got that one figured out yet.

Do assault grenades still cancel this?

Compare a 200 point monolith under the new rules with the 'heavy' distinction to a 250 point land raider - the land raider doesn't stand a chance to survive compared to the monolith. I'm betting it won't retain a structure point as a super-heavy in the new rules once they are released (one of few changes i foresee happening).

Also melta needs clarification - it removes the -1 modifier for a tank, and adds nothing for other vehicles, I'm fine with that. However it has no effect on super-heavies that have a structure point? It should at least change the -3 to a -2 on the table, but I don't see that happening.

So doesn't a guy basically ALWAYS want to go first? Going second means you need to reserve everything big or get autohit.

Also... what are we missing in this? These are the advanced rules, so there is a basic ruleset as well. Do we think that will have basic missions? There HAS to be pitched battle somewhere. The missions as presented in the PDF make tourney play completely impossible. Plus, as noted above... right now whoever goes first gets such a huge bonus it's almost an autowin without your opponent reserving everything...

...or maybe that's why they did strikeforces?

Sephyr wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

It can also be used by a unit that has at least half of it models in terrain, is not locked in combat already, and is being assaulted to give themselves I10.

There is also a rule called Combat drill on pg 60 that deals with Alpha Strike, but I haven't really got that one figured out yet.

Do assault grenades still cancel this?

Yes.

helium42 wrote:

AresX8 wrote:I like how Monoliths got a major buff. When you look at how powerful they are, then look back to see its point cost reduction, and the fact that stuff can assault out of the portal, and it can deep strike without scattering.... man are we gonna be seeing a lot more of them.

It is the perfect plan to sell new models that nobody will use after a short period of time. First release new codex, giving the monolith a nerf and adding cheap annihilation barges that many will want to use in their heavy slot. Fast forward six months or so, after the old necron players have traded/sold their monoliths and purchased annihilation barges and maybe a few doomsday arks, bring out sixth edition, making the monolith the best heavy support choice again, prompting the new necron players to purchase monoliths and shelf their barges/arks, and old necron players that traded/sold their 'liths to want to buy new ones.

Definitely sounds like something GW would do . Glad I hung onto the Monoliths I got in the Necron army trade for my Khador army.

In regards to Alpha Strike: I see it really helping low initiative armies. Look at this example:

A unit of Berzerkers are tied up with Whip Coil Wraiths. Lychguard go into the assault, strike at I10, and wipe out the Berzerkers.

Walls wrote:So doesn't a guy basically ALWAYS want to go first? Going second means you need to reserve everything big or get autohit.

I don't think the second player is hit with the -1EV penalty for being stationary on the first player's turn in the first game cycle.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

Walls wrote:So doesn't a guy basically ALWAYS want to go first? Going second means you need to reserve everything big or get autohit.

I don't think the second player is hit with the -1EV penalty for being stationary on the first player's turn in the first game cycle.

Actually, yes he is. There is a 3 SP stratagem that prevents this, however.

And you're only looking at a -1 EV for being stationary...although that means many tanks are going to be hit on 2's with most anti-tank weapons at that stage. So, by going 2nd, you need to ensure that you're protected by spending some smart stratagem points. I prefer the one that gives your entire army Veiled(2) for one game cycle. That means nobody further than 24" can shoot you, thus keeping you safe (a-la' the necron solar pulse).

The rule for the -1EV penalty is:

"Stationary: A unit that remained stationary in its last Movement phase suffers a -1 penalty to its EV."

The second player's units did not remain stationary in their last Movement phases (there wasn't a Movement phase at all), so this part doesn't apply. I think that Stategem is for armies with Fast Skimmers or Bikes to give them the Jink bonus.

AresX8 wrote:In regards to Alpha Strike: I see it really helping low initiative armies. Look at this example:

A unit of Berzerkers are tied up with Whip Coil Wraiths. Lychguard go into the assault, strike at I10, and wipe out the Berzerkers.

Indeed. Looks like my metal Flayed Ones (no way I'd buy that ugly, overpiced, finecast crap) will finally be useful. In two ways:

1 - Have them tie the unit up in CC and have Lychguards or anything else that does horrid damage Alpha Strike, or...
2 - Use Lychguards with Shields to tie the unit up, than Alpha Strike with 10 - Flayed Ones -> 40 attacks with S4. Wow.

P. 148 - leaked text:

Counter Offensive - 3 SP

The commander doesn't play sitting duck while waiting for the enemy to approach. Instead he orders his troops to rush the enemy with full speed. All friendly units count as having moved before the game until their first turn. Therefore, they have a better Evasion value than usual and vehicles are not hit automatically in close combat.


Moving doesn't increase your evasion value - rather, standing still reduces it. Vehicles are hit automatically if they were stationary. So, this essentially proves that without the stratagem your army counts as stationary at the start of the game. 2 options here - Make sure the bidding goes as high as 3 SP or more if you're that worried about getting alpha struck in the shooting phase, or make sure you're the one going first.

That doesn't change what the shooting rules say. Without that strategem, the second player's units do not count as either stationary or moving in the last turn, so nothing that depends on those conditions will trigger. With the strategem, everything counts as having moved, with the benefits that come with that (jink, vehicles in CC, etc).

It's something else that makes it pretty clear this is still a playtest version of the document - i can interpret this situation both ways. An explicit line of text needs to state whether or not units count as stationary before the start of the game. Until said line exists you and I both have valid points.

Agreed. I have a sneaking suspicion that the stategem text was written when the evasion chart looked more like this one from those rumors about half a year ago:



Then, moving would increase your EV.

tetrisphreak wrote:P. 148 - leaked text:

Counter Offensive - 3 SP

The commander doesn't play sitting duck while waiting for the enemy to approach. Instead he orders his troops to rush the enemy with full speed. All friendly units count as having moved before the game until their first turn. Therefore, they have a better Evasion value than usual and vehicles are not hit automatically in close combat.


Moving doesn't increase your evasion value - rather, standing still reduces it. Vehicles are hit automatically if they were stationary. So, this essentially proves that without the stratagem your army counts as stationary at the start of the game. 2 options here - Make sure the bidding goes as high as 3 SP or more if you're that worried about getting alpha struck in the shooting phase, or make sure you're the one going first.

I see this really taking up the number of deep strike armies that want to go second like BA DOA lists. You know the stuff that wants to go first is going to bid high to ensure their first turn shoot the heck (not meaning rear) out of everything. So lets say they bit 10SP figuring most people will bid 5 sp only granting the person going 5sp, but if the BA player bids 0 this would give them 10 sp and make for some sick boosts to their army which can deep strike, get shot a little and then assault.

Bex wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:P. 148 - leaked text:

Counter Offensive - 3 SP

The commander doesn't play sitting duck while waiting for the enemy to approach. Instead he orders his troops to rush the enemy with full speed. All friendly units count as having moved before the game until their first turn. Therefore, they have a better Evasion value than usual and vehicles are not hit automatically in close combat.


Moving doesn't increase your evasion value - rather, standing still reduces it. Vehicles are hit automatically if they were stationary. So, this essentially proves that without the stratagem your army counts as stationary at the start of the game. 2 options here - Make sure the bidding goes as high as 3 SP or more if you're that worried about getting alpha struck in the shooting phase, or make sure you're the one going first.

I see this really taking up the number of deep strike armies that want to go second like BA DOA lists. You know the stuff that wants to go first is going to bid high to ensure their first turn shoot the heck (not meaning rear) out of everything. So lets say they bit 10SP figuring most people will bid 5 sp only granting the person going 5sp, but if the BA player bids 0 this would give them 10 sp and make for some sick boosts to their army which can deep strike, get shot a little and then assault.

A-ha! but this clearly feeds the tactical gambit of the rules - If i know you have a DOA army I can bid lower and still expect to beat you!

This goes back to the whole princess bride poison scene again. Clearly I cannot bid that many points because I know you want to go second anyhow..but then You know I know so therefore I surely must bid that many points to ensure a first turn! Etc Etc - Circular Logic.

I hereby proclaim that every game start with the line "It appears we have a Mexican standoff..."

chaos0xomega wrote:I hereby proclaim that every game start with the line "It appears we have a Mexican standoff..."

This post has officially been exalted.

I LOL'ed. literally for once. I had the imagery in my head of two grizzled prospectors facing off, one saying to the other "I dare ya to bid first..I'll raise yer points each time!"

Hey guys,
Its been a while but I'd like to give a few observations.

1st) I really like the overall feel of this rumoured dex, but it needs to be finished before I'll be willing to give it a yea or nay.

2nd) The defensive fire thing is too muddled to say eother way due to some of the references made about it outside of the rule entries. IMO, the answer lies in the strategems where overwatch may be purchased for a couple of syrategy points. (Note* That when purchased as a strategy that both players get the nenefit.....very balanced I feel.)

3rd) Just a few pro's & cons I noticed:

Pro's;
A) Artillery rocks under these proposed rules(Especially the Eldar Support Platforms)

B) Crisis suits with plas will sustain fire @ 18" and don't have to dangerous terrain when in difficult terrain.

C) Tau stealthsuits will be useful.

D) Both Hammerheads and falcons will regain the fire power lost to 5th ed.

E) Coversaves are no longer redonculous under these rules and if the dis pods going to 5+ save is the price to be paid, then So Be It.

F) Really like the only one move a turn unless units have the draw back(?) rule.

Cons;
A) I hate the rail rules and how they make the railgun nerf the units equipped with them. The units that use these weapons need screening units which these proposed rules would make impossible. Basically units equipped with rail weapons will become very expensive throw away units. I also just don,t like how unrealistic the straight line mechanic is for a solid projectile that travels parrallel to the ground but raises and lowers in height depending on the unit it travels over.
This mechanism works fine for magical/warp/sonic effects but not for a rail shot. Because of This rule alone, I hope that this ruleset is either changed to ommit the rail rules or that the whole thise is just a hoax.

B) There is to much basic stuff missing, to much assumption that we know what is meant. If real, they need to clarify what constitutes having moved for the purposes of Evasion Value, simplified/clearer language on assault weapons being ised as secondary combat weapon(Do you get to shoot it?? Why did they out the shooting profile in that section??)3rd) and there are about a half dozen more.

C) Maybe it is in one of the ommitted diagrams but the rapid fire rules could be better written as well as the # of actions available versus how many are used(The Tau faq in the pdf didn't even come close to addressing how the multitrackers and target locks would need yo be purchased without our opponents screaming "shennanigans".

There is more but battery is low.

Thanx for your time,
FF

tetrisphreak wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:I hereby proclaim that every game start with the line "It appears we have a Mexican standoff..."

This post has officially been exalted.

I LOL'ed. literally for once. I had the imagery in my head of two grizzled prospectors facing off, one saying to the other "I dare ya to bid first..I'll raise yer points each time!"

You can't have a Mexican stand off because the player who won the deployment roll has to make the first bid and the next bidder must either bid a minimum of 1 point higher or concede. Also the winner chooses who goes first, so if you bid nothing and lose on purpose (because you want to go second) the winner can make you go first - if he is smart enough to see what you are planning. It is quite complex.

I realize you were probably joking though.

But this is actually a pretty cool system. When we played it last night it took some time to get the bidding thing worked out and I made a huge error in bidding so high (since I was playing BA DOA just like in your example). That is the more realistic problem with the system. Rather than a standoff situation you are more likely to have players that bid way too high or way too low and give a big advantage to their opponent. I like that though, because it is skill based. You need to know the game to know exactly what going first/second is worth to you. Way more interesting than rolling a stupid dice.