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Theres also an element of poker to it, there is a certain element of figuring out what your opponents bid threshold is, i.e. the point at which they will willingly go second in exchange for the points (I'd say for the average player this will be around 2-4 points) and knowing how far you can push it before caving yourself so you get the points yourself (if you are so disposed).

focusedfire wrote:Cons;
A) I hate the rail rules and how they make the railgun nerf the units equipped with them. The units that use these weapons need screening units which these proposed rules would make impossible. Basically units equipped with rail weapons will become very expensive throw away units. I also just don,t like how unrealistic the straight line mechanic is for a solid projectile that travels parrallel to the ground but raises and lowers in height depending on the unit it travels over.
This mechanism works fine for magical/warp/sonic effects but not for a rail shot. Because of This rule alone, I hope that this ruleset is either changed to ommit the rail rules or that the whole thise is just a hoax.

Why do you feel that railguns are nerfed? I realize there is the potential issue of hitting your own units, but thing about this: Railgun range is 72". Your average scatter distance (with Bs4 vs Ev3) from the target point is 1". In the worst possible case you scatter 4" perpendicular to line of fire, but in most cases it will be far less (especially if the scatter points along the line of fire, so the angle deviation will be 0). That means that you will ALWAYS hit your target. Additionally, it means that with friendly models even 12" away and the target marker 72" away, you only need to leave a gap of 4/3" between your screening unit to never hit them either.
With these changed rules, a railgun is going to be doing ridiculous amounts of damage to multi-wound units as it deals somewhere between 2 and 5 wounds per hit with no armor saves and basically impossible to miss.

It is a little unrealistic in terms of hitting units at multiple levels, i grant you that, but it is far from a nerf.
IMO the biggest nerf to Tau is the DrawBack being a random 2D6". I get that on average we move further, but in the worst case we get 2" and are stuck in the open... with the amount of other randomness being removed I would have liked to see drawback being a varied parameter (ie, Drawback(7"), (3") or (2D6"))


Overall though, I feel like this ruleset is real. It looks to be about the state of readiness you'd expect from a year out from release. I imagine that a lot of rules would have been tidied up and clarified, but I wouldn't expect too many changes in text before this is sent to the typesetters.
If its not real, GW needs to halt all work they're doing on 6th ed and take a look at this document.
This doc has the overwhelming majority of Dakka praising it. For a community which is at best cynical of GW's actions, that is an amazing thing.

AresX8 wrote:I like how Monoliths got a major buff. When you look at how powerful they are, then look back to see its point cost reduction, and the fact that stuff can assault out of the portal, and it can deep strike without scattering.... man are we gonna be seeing a lot more of them.

It is the perfect plan to sell new models that nobody will use after a short period of time. First release new codex, giving the monolith a nerf and adding cheap annihilation barges that many will want to use in their heavy slot. Fast forward six months or so, after the old necron players have traded/sold their monoliths and purchased annihilation barges and maybe a few doomsday arks, bring out sixth edition, making the monolith the best heavy support choice again, prompting the new necron players to purchase monoliths and shelf their barges/arks, and old necron players that traded/sold their 'liths to want to buy new ones.

Good thing the CCB is still awesome.

Sephyr wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:

It can also be used by a unit that has at least half of it models in terrain, is not locked in combat already, and is being assaulted to give themselves I10.

There is also a rule called Combat drill on pg 60 that deals with Alpha Strike, but I haven't really got that one figured out yet.

Do assault grenades still cancel this?

I hope not, 'cuz I like the idea of someone having to at least think twice before assaulting Necrons in terrain. Also: Marines and their universal grenades.

tetrisphreak wrote:Compare a 200 point monolith under the new rules with the 'heavy' distinction to a 250 point land raider - the land raider doesn't stand a chance to survive compared to the monolith. I'm betting it won't retain a structure point as a super-heavy in the new rules once they are released (one of few changes i foresee happening).

I honestly believe that the Monolith will retain the structure point, just because the Monolith is listed as a "Heavy* " in the Necrons codex. The idea seems to be that shooting almost always hits the Monolith, but it can shrug off most hits.

Walls wrote:So doesn't a guy basically ALWAYS want to go first? Going second means you need to reserve everything big or get auto hit.

I think it adds balance for those who would otherwise want to gain the points and go 2nd

What's wrong with witches? All units with fleet move an extra 2", so they are movement 8. That means they charge 16. You can also get them feel no pain so they don't die horribly from shooting as they assault. Once they're in, they're in.

focusedfire wrote:Cons;
A) I hate the rail rules and how they make the railgun nerf the units equipped with them. The units that use these weapons need screening units which these proposed rules would make impossible. Basically units equipped with rail weapons will become very expensive throw away units. I also just don,t like how unrealistic the straight line mechanic is for a solid projectile that travels parrallel to the ground but raises and lowers in height depending on the unit it travels over.
This mechanism works fine for magical/warp/sonic effects but not for a rail shot. Because of This rule alone, I hope that this ruleset is either changed to ommit the rail rules or that the whole thise is just a hoax.

Two points I think you've not realized:

First, think of the geometry for the railgun. Use Pythagorean theorem. Side A is 72" long. The scatter maximum is 4". So that means the greatest angle of deviation is _________. (hint: you'll need a clear firing lane of less than 2" at 36" away, and less than 1" at 18" away)

Second, I don't think that infantry units block LOS anymore.

Now imagine three broadsides all side-by-side, basically cutting a swath down the battlefield. Personally, I think that these new rules make the tau positively terrifying, even with their current crummy codex; never mind the rumor that they'll get a shiny new one soon. A Tau army that goes first can basically wide out all the mech in the opposing army in one shot.

Trasvi wrote:

focusedfire wrote:Cons;
A) I hate the rail rules and how they make the railgun nerf the units equipped with them. The units that use these weapons need screening units which these proposed rules would make impossible. Basically units equipped with rail weapons will become very expensive throw away units. I also just don,t like how unrealistic the straight line mechanic is for a solid projectile that travels parrallel to the ground but raises and lowers in height depending on the unit it travels over.
This mechanism works fine for magical/warp/sonic effects but not for a rail shot. Because of This rule alone, I hope that this ruleset is either changed to ommit the rail rules or that the whole thise is just a hoax.

Why do you feel that railguns are nerfed? I realize there is the potential issue of hitting your own units, but thing about this: Railgun range is 72". Your average scatter distance (with Bs4 vs Ev3) from the target point is 1". In the worst possible case you scatter 4" perpendicular to line of fire, but in most cases it will be far less (especially if the scatter points along the line of fire, so the angle deviation will be 0). That means that you will ALWAYS hit your target. Additionally, it means that with friendly models even 12" away and the target marker 72" away, you only need to leave a gap of 4/3" between your screening unit to never hit them either.
With these changed rules, a railgun is going to be doing ridiculous amounts of damage to multi-wound units as it deals somewhere between 2 and 5 wounds per hit with no armor saves and basically impossible to miss.

It is a little unrealistic in terms of hitting units at multiple levels, i grant you that, but it is far from a nerf.
IMO the biggest nerf to Tau is the DrawBack being a random 2D6". I get that on average we move further, but in the worst case we get 2" and are stuck in the open... with the amount of other randomness being removed I would have liked to see drawback being a varied parameter (ie, Drawback(7"), (3") or (2D6"))


Overall though, I feel like this ruleset is real. It looks to be about the state of readiness you'd expect from a year out from release. I imagine that a lot of rules would have been tidied up and clarified, but I wouldn't expect too many changes in text before this is sent to the typesetters.
If its not real, GW needs to halt all work they're doing on 6th ed and take a look at this document.
This doc has the overwhelming majority of Dakka praising it. For a community which is at best cynical of GW's actions, that is an amazing thing.

My understanding is that the line may not pass over any friendly units while placing your shots. Combine that with an unreliable Drawback(?) Move and the fact that Tau players aren't going to want to use crisis teams as roadblocks for thier broadsides things start to get problematic.
The only solution I'm seeing are the gun drone squadrons and this seems sub-optimal.

As to the ruleset....I see this as possibly a win-win for 40Kthe players. If its treal then it stands to be a very refreshing change snd dare I say an improvement.


Edit to add:

Tavsi, I agree about the drawback rule. Personally, I think 6+d6" would have been better or maybe 3+d6" for balance.

Later
If fake, then this summer we will have 2 shiny rulesets to play with for the price of one. see win-win

wuestenfux wrote:

zilegil wrote:Jidmha you genius as always. Nob bikers are going to be scary.

Explain? Wound groups are different there.

Jidmha was talking about about how, in the new rules set, if this is not a hoax, ID on nobs come in at str 9 rather than ten. He exsplained a few other things too. If you look back a you could read his post if you are indeed that bothered.

I admit I should have quoted him.

Just to point out - the printing process takes a considerably large amount of time. With something the size of a new edition book, it can take three to four months before things start to ship.

And, well, then you have shipping, which can take one to two months to deliver the content from the printers to the warehouses. Then you have a week or two for the contents to be delivered to all the GW outlets.

And considering a business would want everything to be ready, they start the process somewhat early to ensure that everything will be delivered and ready by the time the release date arrives.

Ultimately, I'd wager about a six to seven month processing time. As such, if the new Edition is indeed coming out in July, it's either already been sent to the printers, or it's going through final preparations of graphic design prior to being finalized and sent to the printers.

Either way, by now the rules (whichever they may be) would have been carved in stone and finalized.

Kharrak wrote:Either way, by now the rules (whichever they may be) would have been carved in stone and finalized.

I would say that grand concept and core rules were carved in stone and finalized by the time Necron Codex was in print

Considering just how many "buffs" the sisters of battle would get in this new codex, and there are quite a few, it makes me wonder...

Was my WD codex also a playtest codex for 6th edition they released to test the new rules AND so that people wouldn't accidentally leak it and ruin 6th was written to sound and work in 5th as well?

Sisters are better in CC with pistols, have a number of different pistols, and have twin pistols.
Sisters have assault weapons and flamers.
Sisters make constant use of transport vehicles.
Sisters now have 6++ saves for avoiding critical hits.
Sisters have "normal" power weapons.
Sisters have jump troops, scout troops, walkers and tanks.
Sisters have bolters for rapidfire.
Sisters can give themselves special rules briefly, to better gauge their usefulness.
Sisters don't typically assault, but aren't miserable at it.

Quite a few of these are rather taste upgrades thanks to this 6th edition, and there's still more out there. Maybe after this draft of 6th edition was written, they wrote up the sisters to take advantage of as many new rules as they could so they had an army quite well suited to testing the game. Of course, maybe the reason we got a sisters WD is because they WERE written for this version of 6th, but they decided not to go with it (fired whomever they fired over it) and decided to cannibalize his work and poop out a sisters dex for begging fans.

All possible, I think, but I wonder if they're that smart.

if this leak is real i don't see anything changing since they've been writing codices for 6th edition since tyranids were in mind

chaos0xomega wrote:Theres also an element of poker to it, there is a certain element of figuring out what your opponents bid threshold is, i.e. the point at which they will willingly go second in exchange for the points (I'd say for the average player this will be around 2-4 points) and knowing how far you can push it before caving yourself so you get the points yourself (if you are so disposed).

Right on. And it's so much more interesting than a dice roll.

tkrettler91 wrote:if this leak is real i don't see anything changing since they've been writing codices for 6th edition since tyranids were in mind

I thought that Necrons were the first codex written with 6th Ed. in mind?

Indeed. And how you play the gambit will change depending on what type of army you're facing, the opponent and how much they want first turn.

IG gun lines I can see wanting to go first badly, so you might be able to wrangle more points out of them (getting them to 6 would be good, Camouflage would screw them over).

otakutaylor wrote:Considering just how many "buffs" the sisters of battle would get in this new codex, and there are quite a few, it makes me wonder...

Was my WD codex also a playtest codex for 6th edition they released to test the new rules AND so that people wouldn't accidentally leak it and ruin 6th was written to sound and work in 5th as well?

Sisters are better in CC with pistols, have a number of different pistols, and have twin pistols.
Sisters have assault weapons and flamers.
Sisters make constant use of transport vehicles.
Sisters now have 6++ saves for avoiding critical hits.
Sisters have "normal" power weapons.
Sisters have jump troops, scout troops, walkers and tanks.
Sisters have bolters for rapidfire.
Sisters can give themselves special rules briefly, to better gauge their usefulness.
Sisters don't typically assault, but aren't miserable at it.

Quite a few of these are rather taste upgrades thanks to this 6th edition, and there's still more out there. Maybe after this draft of 6th edition was written, they wrote up the sisters to take advantage of as many new rules as they could so they had an army quite well suited to testing the game. Of course, maybe the reason we got a sisters WD is because they WERE written for this version of 6th, but they decided not to go with it (fired whomever they fired over it) and decided to cannibalize his work and poop out a sisters dex for begging fans.

All possible, I think, but I wonder if they're that smart.

This is why I think that GW has this all fully planned out, there are a ton of useless units that now just became totally viable. Hell even a chaos spawn just became usable! Hell even think of pyrovores and the fact that they have normal power weapon attacks in CC, we all sat here and wondered WTF would they give something like him a power weapon, now we know.

Also I heard that Gw uses a very custom font for there books, it's been in all the BRB and codex's and it's not a font that anyone can have since Gw had it custom made, and apparently this leak has been created using the same font.

Directed fire: how will it work against wound allocation shenanigans? Example:

I have a Harbinger of Destruction (4+ armour save) leading a unit of Immortals (3+ armour save). If someone shoots at me with directed fire and target the Harbinger, can I allocate the wounds away from him and into the Immortals, since the armour saves are different?




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Ozeo wrote:Also I heard that Gw uses a very custom font for there books, it's been in all the BRB and codex's and it's not a font that anyone can have since Gw had it custom made, and apparently this leak has been created using the same font.

Ah-ha! Potential forensic evidence! Can anyone confirm this?

Holy crap!

Preferred enemy rule will change the intire close combat style of Black templars.

we dont get re-rolls to hit via the vow, but rather if you hit on a 4+ it will now be 3+ and so on

Or am i wrong?

azazel the cat wrote:Directed fire: how will it work against wound allocation shenanigans? Example:

I have a Harbinger of Destruction (4+ armour save) leading a unit of Immortals (3+ armour save). If someone shoots at me with directed fire and target the Harbinger, can I allocate the wounds away from him and into the Immortals, since the armour saves are different?

By my reading, yes.

Ozeo wrote:Also I heard that Gw uses a very custom font for there books, it's been in all the BRB and codex's and it's not a font that anyone can have since Gw had it custom made, and apparently this leak has been created using the same font.

Ah-ha! Potential forensic evidence! Can anyone confirm this?

Interesting bit of evidence, and probably one of the stronger bits so far, but just like everything else, inconclusive. It's possible to duplicate fonts. Really, there's not going to be much that can conclusive at this stage. Whichever codex that gets released in March will be our best bet at giving a good probability of authentic/fake, when we see whether it contains the things this ruleset says it should (BTs have zeal pistols, or Tau have changed MP and BC).

edit: Ozeo, did this source happen to mention which font he was talking about? I just went through the fonts used, and they all appear to be publically available.

All so guys close combat weapons like bolt Pistols or and plasma pistols can now be used i inclose combat. Meaning a plasma pistol hit of a Str. 7 AP 2 in melee! more in line like the action movies now ;O)

Allso Note that terminators have relentless rule. It has changed abit in the way units having this rule can now use their heavy weapons or assault weapons as secondary weapon in close combat.

If i understood this right, that means termies can shoot their missiles or assault cannon in close combat instead of just hitting with powerfist??????!

akkados wrote:All so guys close combat weapons like bolt Pistols or and plasma pistols can now be used i inclose combat. Meaning a plasma pistol hit of a Str. 7 AP 2 in melee! more in line like the action movies now ;O)

Allso Note that terminators have relentless rule. It has changed abit in the way units having this rule can now use their heavy weapons or assault weapons as secondary weapon in close combat.

If i understood this right, that means termies can shoot their missiles or assault cannon in close combat instead of just hitting with powerfist??????!

Not quite right. Pistols have different stats when used as Combat weapons. The table in the rulebook shows these stats and most do not have a better AP than 5 including the Plasma pistol (PDF page 75). Additionally the secondary weapon is the weapon which allows +1 attack for two close combat weapons, much like a pistol in 5th. Allowing the use of Heavy and or Assault weapons doesn't allow them to be fired in CC, but to add that +1 attack for two weapons. Since most Termies with 1-handed weapons to benefit from the secondary weapon have a Power Fist, or Chainfist which are coarse weapons and require a second identical coarse weapon in order to benefit (PDF page 81), It doesn't really change much for them at all.

Edit: Also in the process of double checking this, it appears using a pistol as a Primary weapon in CC makes it a coarse weapon as well which disallows directed hit with them (PDF page 59). Guess they aren't as good as I originally thought.

akkados wrote:All so guys close combat weapons like bolt Pistols or and plasma pistols can now be used i inclose combat. Meaning a plasma pistol hit of a Str. 7 AP 2 in melee! more in line like the action movies now ;O)

Allso Note that terminators have relentless rule. It has changed abit in the way units having this rule can now use their heavy weapons or assault weapons as secondary weapon in close combat.

If i understood this right, that means termies can shoot their missiles or assault cannon in close combat instead of just hitting with powerfist??????!

If you read the PDF, a plasma pistol is S7 AP4 Rending when used in CC.
=P

Angel_of_Rust wrote:

akkados wrote:All so guys close combat weapons like bolt Pistols or and plasma pistols can now be used i inclose combat. Meaning a plasma pistol hit of a Str. 7 AP 2 in melee! more in line like the action movies now ;O)

Allso Note that terminators have relentless rule. It has changed abit in the way units having this rule can now use their heavy weapons or assault weapons as secondary weapon in close combat.

If i understood this right, that means termies can shoot their missiles or assault cannon in close combat instead of just hitting with powerfist??????!

Not quite right. Pistols have different stats when used as Combat weapons. The table in the rulebook shows these stats and most do not have a better AP than 5 including the Plasma pistol (PDF page 75). Additionally the secondary weapon is the weapon which allows +1 attack for two close combat weapons, much like a pistol in 5th. Allowing the use of Heavy and or Assault weapons doesn't allow them to be fired in CC, but to add that +1 attack for two weapons. Since most Termies with 1-handed weapons to benefit from the secondary weapon have a Power Fist, or Chainfist which are coarse weapons and require a second identical coarse weapon in order to benefit (PDF page 81), It doesn't really change much for them at all.

Edit: Also in the process of double checking this, it appears using a pistol as a Primary weapon in CC makes it a coarse weapon as well which disallows directed hit with them (PDF page 59). Guess they aren't as good as I originally thought.

However it DOES make Chaos Terminators insane as they come with Power Weapons as default and all their Combi-Weapons are Rapid Fire weapons.....

Starcannons back to S 7 plus rending and with the cover saves being reduced to 5+, they might find their way in an Eldar list.

M.

DarkStarSabre wrote:
However it DOES make Chaos Terminators insane as they come with Power Weapons as default and all their Combi-Weapons are Rapid Fire weapons.....

What makes them insane? They don't gain the parry thing because terminator armor already gives a 5++?

Kevlar wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:
However it DOES make Chaos Terminators insane as they come with Power Weapons as default and all their Combi-Weapons are Rapid Fire weapons.....

What makes them insane? They don't gain the parry thing because terminator armor already gives a 5++?

Relentless - being able to use Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons in assault as a secondary weapon. A basic Chaos Terminator has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge going by this. Give them the Icon of Khorne. 5 attacks per basic Terminator in an assault, bar anyone with a Power Fist/Chainfist.

Lockark wrote:

akkados wrote:All so guys close combat weapons like bolt Pistols or and plasma pistols can now be used i inclose combat. Meaning a plasma pistol hit of a Str. 7 AP 2 in melee! more in line like the action movies now ;O)

Allso Note that terminators have relentless rule. It has changed abit in the way units having this rule can now use their heavy weapons or assault weapons as secondary weapon in close combat.

If i understood this right, that means termies can shoot their missiles or assault cannon in close combat instead of just hitting with powerfist??????!

If you read the PDF, a plasma pistol is S7 AP4 Rending when used in CC.
=P

Um, Black templar codex tells me AP 2 for plasma...

Miguelsan wrote:Starcannons back to S 7 plus rending and with the cover saves being reduced to 5+, they might find their way in an Eldar list.

M.

Not sure where you saw Rending for a Starcannon, my PDF shows S 7 instead of 6 and Assault 2 instead of Heavy 2 but no Rending. (PDF page 70)

akkados wrote:

Um, Black templar codex tells me AP 2 for plasma...

Again, pistols can now be used as a Primary CC weapon. When fired as a shooting weapon it is indeed S 7 AP 2. When used as a combat weapon it is S7 AP 5 (4 is wrong too) and unfortunately shows up as both Rending and not Rending. Probably an error of omission in the second case (PDF page 75).

akkados wrote:Um, Black templar codex tells me AP 2 for plasma...

The Black Templar codex has rules for using a pistol in CC?

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:
However it DOES make Chaos Terminators insane as they come with Power Weapons as default and all their Combi-Weapons are Rapid Fire weapons.....

What makes them insane? They don't gain the parry thing because terminator armor already gives a 5++?

Relentless - being able to use Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons in assault as a secondary weapon. A basic Chaos Terminator has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge going by this. Give them the Icon of Khorne. 5 attacks per basic Terminator in an assault, bar anyone with a Power Fist/Chainfist.

Wait my Head is spinning, I might misunderstand so the relentless adds +1 attack with Heavy weapons in CC? and termies only have 2 attacks on basic, didnt know chaos had 3 on basic.. Hmpf.

And units with standard chain sword and bolt pistol can now use their pistol with AP effect to good use in CC?


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Angel_of_Rust wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:Starcannons back to S 7 plus rending and with the cover saves being reduced to 5+, they might find their way in an Eldar list.

M.

Not sure where you saw Rending for a Starcannon, my PDF shows S 7 instead of 6 and Assault 2 instead of Heavy 2 but no Rending. (PDF page 70)

akkados wrote:

Um, Black templar codex tells me AP 2 for plasma...

Again, pistols can now be used as a Primary CC weapon. When fired as a shooting weapon it is indeed S 7 AP 2. When used as a combat weapon it is S7 AP 5 (4 is wrong too) and unfortunately shows up as both Rending and not Rending. Probably an error of omission in the second case (PDF page 75).

Ah okay, but how wierd is it that a plasma gun losses AP strength at point blank range...




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MasterSlowPoke wrote:

akkados wrote:Um, Black templar codex tells me AP 2 for plasma...

The Black Templar codex has rules for using a pistol in CC?

No, atleast not yet hehe

akkados wrote:Wait my Head is spinning, I might misunderstand so the relentless adds +1 attack with Heavy weapons in CC? and termies only have 2 attacks on basic, didnt know chaos had 3 on basic.. Hmpf.

He means that Relentless allows rapid fire and heavy weapons to be a secondary close combat weapon, which combined with the power weapon, gives Chaos Terminators 3 attacks normally ("basic" is not the right word here, which would imply that they have 3 attacks on their profile - which they don't).

Hmm. You could upgrade them all to Aspiring Champions and give them the Icon of Khorne for a total of 5 attacks without charging...