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akkados wrote:

Wait my Head is spinning, I might misunderstand so the relentless adds +1 attack with Heavy weapons in CC? and termies only have 2 attacks on basic, didnt know chaos had 3 on basic.. Hmpf.

Correct. Assault type weapons can be used as a Secondary Weapon much like pistols are now (PDF page 58). The Relentless special rule extends that bonus to Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons both (PDF page 52), so Chaos Terminators have 2 attacks base, +1 for a Power Weapon (Primary Weapon) and a combi-bolter (Rapid Fire Secondary Weapon) + 1 for charging and the possible +1 for Mark of Khorne. Very similar to the old True Grit rule which allowed bolters and in some cases (Daemonhunters) Storm Bolters to apply for a Secondary weapon in certain cases.

Also worth noting is that Relentless extends the range of Sustained Fire (3 shots of Rapid Fire instead of 2) to 18 inches. Can anyone say plasma bomb?

The reason for the AP being 5 is probably due to the difficulty of landing a pistol shot at close range, with Rending representing the chance to hit.

Well does a shoulder mounted Cyclone missile launcher count? I find that wierd tough.

akkados wrote:Well does a shoulder mounted Cyclone missile launcher count? I find that wierd tough.

While it should count, there are stipulations to as to what primary weapons can benefit. First off Coarse weapons which include Power Fists, Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammers, and Chain Fists require a second identical weapon to count as the Secondary Weapon. Additionally two-handed weapons cannot benefit, and in the case of a Storm Shield, you can never benefit from having a Secondary Weapon. It is a very constricting set of requirements which only lends itself to working well with a generic old Power Weapon which is neither Coarse nor two-handed. This is the reason for the Chaos Terminators example. Their base wargear when purchased is a Power Weapon and a Twin-Linked Bolter before upgrades.

Edit: More food for thought, a Deathwing Terminator Sergeant with his Power Sword, a Heavy Flamer, and a Cyclone Missile Launcher, could pair his Power Weapon with either the Heavy Flamer, or the Cyclone Missile Launcher to gain +1 attacks. He could also use his Heavy Flamer to inflict d6 autohits at S 5 AP 4 instead of his normal attack profile.

Angel_of_Rust wrote: Sustained Fire (3 shots of Rapid Fire instead of 2)

Um, Sustained Fire is the thing that lets you shoot twice in the first place. It's not on top of rapid-firing. Rapid-firing doesn't exist.

I must say that these rules seem professionaly written and Im rather excited to be trying them out in two days with an assault based CSM force. If these are indeed the workings of GW them mayhaps GW has finaly heard the importance of making a quality game. As if this pans out I think people would be more willing to buy more gw products as they finaly made a good system.

I sincerely hope this is legit and that gw finaly got its head out of its arse and decided they needed to make quality prducts.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Angel_of_Rust wrote: Sustained Fire (3 shots of Rapid Fire instead of 2)

Um, Sustained Fire is the thing that lets you shoot twice in the first place. It's not on top of rapid-firing. Rapid-firing doesn't exist.

My mistake, I didn't realize the Rapid Fire 2 example was a non-existing condition so far as current weapons and assumed it referred to bolters and the like. Regardless, Relentless allows Sustained Fire from 18" which is far enough that you can pod/deep strike outside of the 18" critical zone and not scatter, and make your move to be within Sustained Fire range.

GK also have some interesting combinations with the assault weapons granting +1 attack. A Purifier with Falchions would have 5 attacks on the charge which kind of makes them worth it at 5 points now since you'd only need 3 or 4 in a squad to put out loads of attacks. A warding stave doesn't count as 2 handed so that would get an extra attack, too. And the warding stave could become more useful because you may wish to replace the I6 halberds with falchions so an extra 2+ save in CC would be a good idea. And a purfier with no upgrades at all would now be base 3 attacks with the sword and at 24 points it's pretty good. It's just a shame that cleansing flame has taken a bit of a nerf, although since units engaged in CC are now within 3" of those in b2b with the enemy, you'll still get a good number of hits.

For the fact of grenades; Yes assault type grenades cancel the Alpha strike.

ColdSadHungry wrote:A Purifier with Falchions would have 5 attacks on the charge which kind of makes them worth it at 5 points now since you'd only need 3 or 4 in a squad to put out loads of attacks

Unfortunately this was the same argument for Falchions giving two attacks made when the codex first came out. The Falchions give +1 attack as per the FAQ and not +1 from the Falchions and an additional +1 for two weapons (Falchions in this case). I don't see how a Falchion and a Storm Bolter would be much different than a Falchion and a Falchion but I could be wrong.

Edit: However with this new rule it makes a NF Sword and a Storm Bolter grant the same number of attacks, AND the bonus invul in CC to boot for 5 fewer points. It would completely trivialize the Falchions as an option if it didn't work as you suggest.

Move or assault after deepstrike... OH HELLS YES

Angel_of_Rust wrote:
Unfortunately this was the same argument for Falchions giving two attacks made when the codex first came out. The Falchions give +1 attack as per the FAQ and not +1 from the Falchions and an additional +1 for two weapons (Falchions in this case). I don't see how a Falchion and a Storm Bolter would be much different than a Falchion and a Falchion but I could be wrong.

Edit: However with this new rule it makes a NF Sword and a Storm Bolter grant the same number of attacks, AND the bonus invul in CC to boot for 5 fewer points. It would completely trivialize the Falchions as an option if it didn't work as you suggest.

The Falchion argument will actually still make sense now. When it was first argued they were said to be two close combat weapons. That was FAQd to that not being the case.
However, a Grey Knight Storm Bolter and one Single Handed CC Weapon should still grant +1 attack

If GW wanted them to be +1 attack in the new edition they should of said that Falchions counted as a 2-handed weapon, but that isn't the case. Now that could easily be updated in another FAQ/Codex Update but who knows.

You are right about the NF Sword though, seems like Falchions under 6th will need to grant +2 attacks or the swords would be better and cheaper. and a few pissed people for modeling falchions on their Grey Knights

Another thing that has been puzzling me is Witchblades. In the Eldar Codex Warlocks are listed as Psykers. With the new Channel ability rule, do they each have to individually Channel the Witchblade to turn it on? Being that GK can turn on all NFW with one focus or a character can Warlocks do the same with a focus or a Farseer? If so who can you choose the focus and does it waste the Psychic power of the whole unit or just the focus? It seems kind of BS that they would ALL need to channel to turn on their own individual Witchblades and not be able to use any of the Warlock Powers if they did so, but conversely, in a Jetseer council wouldn't that give you 7 or 8 backup "Fortunes" if the Farseers is countered?

Surtur wrote:Move or assault after deepstrike... OH HELLS YES

This has been something I can't seem to nail down - where does it say you can make a Charge or Engage move after Deep Striking? I know you can make a Combat Move if the unit arrived from inside a deep striking transport, and this piece of information:

There are no additional rules than that the unit may
perform no other Move action than Turn, Combat
move and Engage in this turn.

The wording on this is what's confusing me. Is it saying that's what one CAN'T do after deep striking, or is it saying that's all one CAN do after deep striking?

Kharrak wrote:

Surtur wrote:Move or assault after deepstrike... OH HELLS YES

This has been something I can't seem to nail down - where does it say you can make a Charge or Engage move after Deep Striking? I know you can make a Combat Move if the unit arrived from inside a deep striking transport, and this piece of information:

There are no additional rules than that the unit may
perform no other Move action than Turn, Combat
move and Engage in this turn.

The wording on this is what's confusing me. Is it saying that's what one CAN'T do after deep striking, or is it saying that's all one CAN do after deep striking?

If you read it as "may perform no other Move action(s) than Turn, Combat move and Engage in this turn." it seems as though the permissible Move options are being listed. I believe the s is only omitted because you can never perform multiple "Move actions", and thus implies you may make a single "Move action" from the list that follows it.

Kharrak wrote:The wording on this is what's confusing me. Is it saying that's what one CAN'T do after deep striking, or is it saying that's all one CAN do after deep striking?

The latter. It says that one can turn, combat move, or engage, but cannot take any other action of type 'move' than those three.

Besides that, if that were a list of things you can't do, then that would mean you can stil Charge or Run...which would be a little silly.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Besides that, if that were a list of things you can't do, then that would mean you can stil Charge or Run...which would be a little silly.

Thus my confusion :p

I just found they way it was worded to be exceedingly awkward, but thanks for clearing that up!

The sad truth is that if this is fake, it's going to hurt Games Workshop a lot if the 6th doesn't deliver. Pretty much crushes most folks hope.

Just noticed how the Doom was changed:

At the beginning of the Doom of Malan'tai’s Shooting
phase, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the
Doom of Malan'tai must take a Morale check (terror)
on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers two wounds
for each point they failed by, with no armour saves
allowed.

So it only fires off in the owner's turn, but the effects are twice as deadly.

Has anyone considered the fact that this set of rules could be called: 'SmackCrasher 20000' and they could be used independently of what GW releases?

I mean, if they are good rules, then they are good rules... even if GW adds new models in the future, the rules contained in 'SmackCrasher 20000' could be applied to all new units.

If GW does not release something along the lines of this leak, I may not play 40k anymore. I was so pissed at 3rd, enjoyed 4th a little more, was okay with 5th, but this makeshift rulebook is what I want in a rulebook.

Sure some things could be better, but 5th was just so... easy. I like complexity. And after reading the book a few times, this makeshift rule set is not even that complex.

If this is GW product, which I believe it is, thank you Games- Workshop!!!!

In regards to assault after deep strike, refer to vanguard vets heroic intervention rule being changed to deep strike (heroic) and the change in the function of that rule. They may deploy in critical range but may not shoot in order to disallow defensive fire. Nothing about assaulting after deep striking which lends to the idea of all units being allowed to assault.

Angel_of_Rust wrote:
Correct. Assault type weapons can be used as a Secondary Weapon much like pistols are now (PDF page 58). The Relentless special rule extends that bonus to Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons both (PDF page 52), so Chaos Terminators have 2 attacks base, +1 for a Power Weapon (Primary Weapon) and a combi-bolter (Rapid Fire Secondary Weapon) + 1 for charging and the possible +1 for Mark of Khorne. Very similar to the old True Grit rule which allowed bolters and in some cases (Daemonhunters) Storm Bolters to apply for a Secondary weapon in certain cases.

Also worth noting is that Relentless extends the range of Sustained Fire (3 shots of Rapid Fire instead of 2) to 18 inches. Can anyone say plasma bomb?

If only Chaos Terminators were relentless...

Kevlar wrote:

Angel_of_Rust wrote:
Correct. Assault type weapons can be used as a Secondary Weapon much like pistols are now (PDF page 58). The Relentless special rule extends that bonus to Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons both (PDF page 52), so Chaos Terminators have 2 attacks base, +1 for a Power Weapon (Primary Weapon) and a combi-bolter (Rapid Fire Secondary Weapon) + 1 for charging and the possible +1 for Mark of Khorne. Very similar to the old True Grit rule which allowed bolters and in some cases (Daemonhunters) Storm Bolters to apply for a Secondary weapon in certain cases.

Also worth noting is that Relentless extends the range of Sustained Fire (3 shots of Rapid Fire instead of 2) to 18 inches. Can anyone say plasma bomb?

If only Chaos Terminators were relentless...

I believe it is Terminator Armor that makes them so.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Angel_of_Rust wrote: Sustained Fire (3 shots of Rapid Fire instead of 2)

Um, Sustained Fire is the thing that lets you shoot twice in the first place. It's not on top of rapid-firing. Rapid-firing doesn't exist.

Sustained fire gives you an additional shot at 12" (18" if you're relentless) above the number of shots listed on the weapon's profile. So Boltguns fire twice (being Rapid Fire 1).

Any weapons so far with Rapid Fire 2+?

Also, Sustained Fire? Yet another 2nd Ed. rule name cropping up.

From the fellas at Beasts of War...

Epicwargamer wrote:I believe it is Terminator Armor that makes them so.

Was it part of the new rules or FAQ? Chaos Terminators aren't relentless, at least not in their codex. They have a couple of relentless like abilities, but unfortunately don't have the actual rule.

This is on page 33, btw.

I'm confused about stratagems - how do they work if I want to go second?

When I win the roll and have to start bidding?

When I lose the roll and bid second?

Hm, 4chan seems to think this is fake because of a very amusing detail: it's written in American English.