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Made in dk
Bane Thrall





 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
GW is very fond of balancing units according to the most bleeding-edge version of their use (Space Marines and Guilliman, Chaos gak and Cacophony, etc.), so I'm certain it's the case here too.


Yep, this is what we see all the time, GW absolutely hates bringing their crap units up to speed, they would rather shift the tournament meta a little bit, this is what annoys me the most about "modern" GW.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Eldarsif wrote:
This misses the forest for the trees.

The units that got hikes were the most point efficient and so consequently the best picks for Ynnari.


Yes and no. The Dark Reaper point increase I can get behind as I agree that was an overperforming unit on all accounts. What people are now asking: Was the increase too steep or not? We will start seeing more details about that as the Ynnari Index becomes official and whether Dark Reapers will see use in the future. Going over most recent tourney lists it seems mostly Ynnari were picking Reapers while Asuryani players were picking other things.

Shining Spears, however, were riding the Ynnari wave from start to finish. It's why GW didn't hit them as hard as Dark Reapers while Dark Reapers were dominating with the double-shooting at their old point cost. Regarding Shining Spears you will rarely see them in non-Ynnari lists as you are just not getting the best bang for the buck.

However is that because shinning spears are bad, I don't think they truly are, or is it more that like most assualt units they took a nerf from the fly change, (that does need fixed or screens need seriously rebalanced)
Also as for not being in Alitoc (all eldar seam to be Alitoc) lists answer why take Craftworld Spears when Yannari spears exsist?
They also probably benifit the least from the most common craftworld.
If GW finally admit -1 to hit stack isn't good game design spears could see more play.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 09:18:07


 
   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





the_scotsman wrote:
"muh dark reapers were 5 points" has got to be the most facepalm-worthy balance complaint in 8th edition. Like, come on. It's a model that comes with a compulsory weapon, and that weapon is an extremely powerful option on a character...so obviously almost all their cost was shifted over to the weapon so it could be pricy on the character.

This is nonsense. Reaper launchers cost 22pts for a weapon that's basically an upgraded Missile launcher (25pts before CA, 20pts now). There was absolutely no cost shifted over to the Dark Reapers, they were just undercosted.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




On a seperate note are we expecting mass disappointment or all of the salt for the FAQ later?
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

However is that because shinning spears are bad, I don't think they truly are, or is it more that like most assualt units they took a nerf from the fly change, (that does need fixed or screens need seriously rebalanced)
Also as for not being in Alitoc (all eldar seam to be Alitoc) lists answer why take Craftworld Spears when Yannari spears exsist?
They also probably benifit the least from the most common craftworld.
If GW finally admit -1 to hit stack isn't good game design spears could see more play.


I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.

The times Shining Spears truly worked in my favor was when my friends were using Marine Bikes and Primaris, but against other lists such as Tyranids, IG, Orks, and others, the Shining Spears are a lot of points for much less returns. I am also wondering if Shining Spears were getting a lot of use due to Ynnari and the fact that they could potentially deal with a Castellan when things fell into place.

So as much as I agree that Dark Reapers needed a point increase from the original codex release, I do feel that the verdict is yet not in regarding the Shining Spears. Especially now after the big Ynnari change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
On a seperate note are we expecting mass disappointment or all of the salt for the FAQ later?


I am personally not expecting much from the FAQ. If they bring on some big changes I will be pleasantly surprised regardless of which way my armies go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 09:32:04


Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ice_can wrote:
On a seperate note are we expecting mass disappointment or all of the salt for the FAQ later?
People will be super disappointed when all the changes they want aren't in it. I think that is a given for every single Faq GW will ever bring out until the end of time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not sure if it's been mentioned anywhere, but, rumour has it, the faq will be dropping later today at some point.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos






I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.


I like how this is considered a large commitment but when regular CSM need to field 2 sorcerer/ DP's and A lord for a unit to be effective it is fine.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




Kdash wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned anywhere, but, rumour has it, the faq will be dropping later today at some point.

That'd be nice. But also, it's a 50/50 shot it drops today just by virtue that it's the second last day of the month (unless I just jinxed it and it now drops may 8th or something)
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

Not Online!!! wrote:

I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.


I like how this is considered a large commitment but when regular CSM need to field 2 sorcerer/ DP's and A lord for a unit to be effective it is fine.


I also like strawmen.


Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Eldarsif wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.


I like how this is considered a large commitment but when regular CSM need to field 2 sorcerer/ DP's and A lord for a unit to be effective it is fine.


I also like strawmen.



Strawman? what strawman. My point was that you considered this a large commitment and this was regular commitment for an other army to even work.
So pls look up what a strawman argument actually is.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Not Online!!! wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.


I like how this is considered a large commitment but when regular CSM need to field 2 sorcerer/ DP's and A lord for a unit to be effective it is fine.


I also like strawmen.



Strawman? what strawman. My point was that you considered this a large commitment and this was regular commitment for an other army to even work.
So pls look up what a strawman argument actually is.


Tell me what unit from CSM it is considered normal to need 2 sorcerors and a lord as support to work? I don't think I've ever seen a daemon prince in a competitive CSm list that wasn't operating selfishly (Ie using all its buffs primarily on itself) and you rarely see sorcerors as buffbots. Why bring a sorceror and a unit and use warptime on that unit when you can just bring a daemon prince who warptimes himself?
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





the_scotsman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.


I like how this is considered a large commitment but when regular CSM need to field 2 sorcerer/ DP's and A lord for a unit to be effective it is fine.


I also like strawmen.



Strawman? what strawman. My point was that you considered this a large commitment and this was regular commitment for an other army to even work.
So pls look up what a strawman argument actually is.


Tell me what unit from CSM it is considered normal to need 2 sorcerors and a lord as support to work? I don't think I've ever seen a daemon prince in a competitive CSm list that wasn't operating selfishly (Ie using all its buffs primarily on itself) and you rarely see sorcerors as buffbots. Why bring a sorceror and a unit and use warptime on that unit when you can just bring a daemon prince who warptimes himself?


Possesed are now toyed around with support, Obliterators, even some havoc ideas are swirling around but there are more DA -1 to hit buffs used instead of another sorcerer.
point is, 2 HQ buffing a squad is really nothing new or overly commiting.
Granted i was a bit over the top with the 3 HQ's required.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 11:52:02


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

I've actually tried to run Shining Spears for the longest time in both mono-Craftworld and Craftworld/Coven lists and I've always found Shining Spears to be underwhelming considering how much they cost. To get the most use out of them you need to sink a lot of points. You have to have a large unit for maximum impact(9 jetbikes preferably), then add Farseer and Warlock for Guide, Doom, and Jinx. That's a lot of commitment for something so I am not surprised if Ynnari is what gave them life. Tried them both as Alaitoc and as my favourite Craftworld: Saim-hann.


I like how this is considered a large commitment but when regular CSM need to field 2 sorcerer/ DP's and A lord for a unit to be effective it is fine.


I also like strawmen.



Strawman? what strawman. My point was that you considered this a large commitment and this was regular commitment for an other army to even work.
So pls look up what a strawman argument actually is.


Tell me what unit from CSM it is considered normal to need 2 sorcerors and a lord as support to work? I don't think I've ever seen a daemon prince in a competitive CSm list that wasn't operating selfishly (Ie using all its buffs primarily on itself) and you rarely see sorcerors as buffbots. Why bring a sorceror and a unit and use warptime on that unit when you can just bring a daemon prince who warptimes himself?


He's exaggerating a bit but he's not wrong about CMS/Loyalist Marine shooting being really mopey without their reroll buff auras. Not speaking for CMS, but the vanilla marine codex seems to have been balanced around rerolling 1s to hit and to wound on every single unit every turn.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

In unrelated news, I would murder to have singing spears as an option to all my armies (chaos, daemons, thousand sons, tyranids and t'au) without any of the army buffs they can have. Promise.

But sure, let's bring their cost down because they won't be AS dominating any more.

Got an idea for you. How about you shelf them for a couple of editions, just like I do with most of my Tyranid models?

14000
4000
2500 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





topaxygouroun i wrote:
In unrelated news, I would murder to have singing spears as an option to all my armies (chaos, daemons, thousand sons, tyranids and t'au) without any of the army buffs they can have. Promise.

But sure, let's bring their cost down because they won't be AS dominating any more.

Got an idea for you. How about you shelf them for a couple of editions, just like I do with most of my Tyranid models?


...and just like people did with them for the last...what was the last time shining spears were usable, third ed?
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




the_scotsman wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
In unrelated news, I would murder to have singing spears as an option to all my armies (chaos, daemons, thousand sons, tyranids and t'au) without any of the army buffs they can have. Promise.

But sure, let's bring their cost down because they won't be AS dominating any more.

Got an idea for you. How about you shelf them for a couple of editions, just like I do with most of my Tyranid models?


...and just like people did with them for the last...what was the last time shining spears were usable, third ed?
Shining spears have never been good outside of 8th really. They were ok in 3rd I guess.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The problem is Shining Spears are great at killing marines, it's kinda what they appear to be designed for.
The problem is being good a killing marines, isn't going to be enough to see play if everything else can kill them well enough or marines aren't realy that great and hence taking a unit optimised to kill them hampers you in your tougher matchups and makes your easy matchups even easier.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
The problem is Shining Spears are great at killing marines, it's kinda what they appear to be designed for.
The problem is being good a killing marines, isn't going to be enough to see play if everything else can kill them well enough or marines aren't realy that great and hence taking a unit optimised to kill them hampers you in your tougher matchups and makes your easy matchups even easier.


All Spears need is Doom and they can take out Russ’s with relative ease (in my experience anyway). Without doom and if they split attacks then they struggle against high T, high W models.

They still have a place in some lists – they just aren’t as spammed as they were before, and will be even less so now Ynnari got changed.
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

Got an idea for you. How about you shelf them for a couple of editions, just like I do with most of my Tyranid models?


My Shining Spears have been shelved from 2nd editions when I bought them up until I decided to try them again in 8th. I have now shelved them again because I found them lacking in my Mono and CW/Coven lists. Along with my Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, and more. I also have tyranids that were shelved for a long time(and some still do), but I have found the 8th edition codex to be a fresh air for my Nids. My Dark Angels, however, remain shelved until further notice.

He's exaggerating a bit but he's not wrong about CMS/Loyalist Marine shooting being really mopey without their reroll buff auras. Not speaking for CMS, but the vanilla marine codex seems to have been balanced around rerolling 1s to hit and to wound on every single unit every turn.


This is a problem with flat bonus auras. AoS has tried to change this paradigm by having you spend a CP to activate the aura. I have found that approach strangely compelling. Auras just tend to be problematic in my experience because they work only in certain given contexts and not in others.

Strawman? what strawman. My point was that you considered this a large commitment and this was regular commitment for an other army to even work.


Assuming that I find it "fine" for other armies to have commitment. „Svo skal böl bæta” as they say. I of course don't know the CSM 2.0 codex so I admit I can't speak for its commitment pits. I would, however, love to have Daemonic Princes(I have one marked for Slaanesh) in my Eldar army. Maybe we could have an exchange program?

Ultimately I am just looking forward to seeing how the meta changes in the coming months and then making a judgment call.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 13:00:39


Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Kdash wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
The problem is Shining Spears are great at killing marines, it's kinda what they appear to be designed for.
The problem is being good a killing marines, isn't going to be enough to see play if everything else can kill them well enough or marines aren't realy that great and hence taking a unit optimised to kill them hampers you in your tougher matchups and makes your easy matchups even easier.


All Spears need is Doom and they can take out Russ’s with relative ease (in my experience anyway). Without doom and if they split attacks then they struggle against high T, high W models.

They still have a place in some lists – they just aren’t as spammed as they were before, and will be even less so now Ynnari got changed.

Great. You spent several hundred points plus a major HQ choice to kill a single Russ worth how many points?

Now you have a Shining Spear unit in the middle of the enemy force unengaged, and you've used over a quarter of your army to do it.

I do agree that Spears are good even without Ynnari, but trading them for a single Russ (or maybe a squadron, if you're really lucky) doesn't sound like a great trade.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
The problem is Shining Spears are great at killing marines, it's kinda what they appear to be designed for.
The problem is being good a killing marines, isn't going to be enough to see play if everything else can kill them well enough or marines aren't realy that great and hence taking a unit optimised to kill them hampers you in your tougher matchups and makes your easy matchups even easier.


All Spears need is Doom and they can take out Russ’s with relative ease (in my experience anyway). Without doom and if they split attacks then they struggle against high T, high W models.

They still have a place in some lists – they just aren’t as spammed as they were before, and will be even less so now Ynnari got changed.

Great. You spent several hundred points plus a major HQ choice to kill a single Russ worth how many points?

Now you have a Shining Spear unit in the middle of the enemy force unengaged, and you've used over a quarter of your army to do it.

I do agree that Spears are good even without Ynnari, but trading them for a single Russ (or maybe a squadron, if you're really lucky) doesn't sound like a great trade.


I know it’s well over a year ago now, but, at an ITC event (so old missions) I ran 9 Spears as Saim-Hann with an Autarch, a 2nd unit of 3 Spears and 2 Vypers for an Outrider. The Spears got all the buffs – conceal, empower, protect, LFR etc and they were a pain for armies to deal with. My biggest downfall was that I just couldn’t kill Mortarian.

Things have changed a lot since then though, but, one of the more competitive UK players ran a unit of Ynnari spears at the Warhammer Team event the weekend just gone and wasn’t using flyer spam. The only game he didn’t win was his last, and that was vs a team mate running 3 Discordants, Alpha Legion rotar cannon squads and Slaaneshi daemons.

Besides, I’d rather use those points to kill 1 Russ and tie up other tanks each turn, than try to rely on half a dozen flyers shooting.
   
Made in us
Beast of Nurgle




Would love to see the FAQ put harder restrictions on detachment soup.

Like:

Only your primary (your choice) detachment generates CP (gameable)
Missing ANY faction keywords between detachments requires1cp per detachment and you don't get the standard 3.
Etc etc

   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

So. It's April 29th. Only 30 days in April. Do we think the FAQ will be today (fingers crossed), tomorrow (ugh) or get a announcement today or tomorrow that it'll be delayed until May (eyes roll so hard they disappear in the socket)?

-

   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




London, UK

Hopefully today, Heat 2 is getting close and I'd like to build a whole new army based entirely on the new FAQ.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I got a big hint that it'd be coming today. But, the longer we wait the more i doubt GWs ability to stick to their own timetables
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

I hope today. I have a great deal of patience, but at this point I just want to get over with it.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Looks like GW is literally waiting till the last day of April (or beyond?) for their „no big changes“- FAQ
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




I wouldn't throw in the towel on it dropping today until it's after 6PM UK time.

I'd like for it to be today but as long as it's this month I'm okay with it. If they announce today (or tomorrow) that it's delayed to sometime next month then I'd be pretty annoyed by the lack of professionalism
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






There is no way the FAQ is released this month at this point...If by some miracle it is - what exactly was the logic behind releasing it mid week on the very last day of april? Other than procrastination?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 14:40:37


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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