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Brad Chester was not at his first event, that was a joke over the mic by Chris.

Brad Chester is a great player with tons of experience in competitive play, and was the relative "veteran" in the final round with Tony. That's taking nothing from Tony - he's a great player and has a well-earned reputation, but Brad is quite a bit older and Tony wasn't winning tournaments in his diapers.

@ Hulksmash - Apparently I need to get my ringers on a heavier workout program; they couldn't quite carry me to the top 5. Guess that's what I get for being big-boned. Congrats to you guys again, you murderized 'em.

@jwolf:

Was your team the one that brought 40 paladins?

If so, then no wonder you guys didn't make top 5.

Jy2

No we brought Black Templar and Grey Knights. with Zero Paladins! I had to carry Wolf and Thomas but we only got 6th or 7th :(. 4 out of 4 Grey Knight teams though!

Hulksmash wrote:@frgsinwntr

Yeppers. You got the names right I built a team of ringers to carry me as far in the standing as possible. Turned out we managed to win.

@Thread

I stand by GK's not being broken. I think proliferation is making people cranky. I'll point out that personally the codex that is my bane is Chaos. I've lost more to Chaos in the last year than all other books combined. I think I've only lost to GK's twice since they came out....might be off by one

And with some of the stuff I picked up this weekend I'll either finish repainting my Nids or finish off my Necrons now that the new models are coming out.

Proliferation doesn't explain the fact that they had a representation in the top 16 of roughly twice what their actual entrant percentage was. On an even field they should of had an end table representation roughly equivalent to their entrance. The sheer size of the event makes the results a bit better than most major tournament examples for statistical review.

The otherr thing with GK is that many of the established competitive lists, especially MSU spam, struggle to cope with them whereas less fashionable and often older codices can do well against them (I find certain builds of orks, eldar and sometimes tyranids and demons much tougher than dark eldar, space wolves or - to an extent - guard). A lot of the 'problem' with GK is that people have not changed up to meet the new challenge they've thrown into the game. so instead they cry broken. I suspect this has a bearing on the large competitive events and what armies people bring. If you're smashing the current 'good' lists with GK in 'training' match-ups they're going to seem the smart choice and so they'll be very prevalent and also perform well given that many players from other codices seem reluctant to change their all-comers list to account for GK.

I know of Thousand Sons players that table Grey Knight armies in the first three turns of a game.

Really? Someone brought this thread back up because Grey Knights finally won a large event?

Dok wrote:Really? Someone brought this thread back up because Grey Knights finally won a large event?

lol, yes they did to cover more discussion on it. That one large event was 250 strong. In addition, grey knights won the team tournament which was 120 strong. Must be luck of the dice though or people failing to compensate for them.

Or simply weight of numbers. You throw enough Grey Knights at something and it's bound to fall!

The people who QQ about GKs will keep this thread going in perpetuity.

I'm surprised by how many people voted

Yes, GK are the most OP book in the last decade.

Do people not know about the Chaos Demons fantasy codex when it came out?

jgehunter wrote:I'm surprised by how many people voted

Yes, GK are the most OP book in the last decade.

Do people not know about the Chaos Demons fantasy codex when it came out?

I think most people are thinking 40k-exclusively.

People who know about GKs are not as likely to know about Fantasy Daemons, like myself.

AFAIK, GKs ARE the most OP book GW has put out in a decade, because I do not and probably never will play fantasy - I have the much-more-realistic FOG for that.

Gk are definitely powerful. I personally think some of their rules are game breaking and abusive, but most codexes have something game breaking. I definitely have an urge to go back to vanilla marines with no chapter tactics just to see how they square off, probably ending in being tabled....

helium42 wrote:The people who QQ about GKs will keep this thread going in perpetuity.

Yet your posting on it as well

I mainly play Eldar, and here is my problem with Grey Knights.

I cant assault them, because they negate my seer council, my psychic powers, and overall have better armor saves, initiatives, attacks, strength, toughness, and overall better attacks, supported by better HQ's

I cant out- maneuver them, because StormRavens are just as fast as I am, but they have an assault ramp.

I cant out Shoot them - One of their infantry models can out shoot my Main Battle Tank, with a higher Strength, a higher BS, and Rending Shots. 3 RifleDreds can out shoot my entire army, and they cost 400 points, ignore stuns, can easily attain cover, and require no support. If I put EML's on 3 Falcons, with guide support, they out shoot me by a ratio of OVER 60%. If I invest in 650 points of War Walkers, with double guide support, the RifleDreds STILL OUT SHOOT ME.

a GK player has a higher model account, more armor, and more units. There units are better IN EVERY ASPECT.

Do I care if people play grey knights? No.
Do I enjoy playing against grey knights? No.

The codex has no weaknesses. Ive Tried assault based eldar, footdar, Shooting Based Eldar, Autarch dar, and every combination, of every unit, and regardless of what I throw at each unit, GK has a counter that costs less and does more.

Psycannons and RileDreds are too effective. I challenge anyone to find a unit that comes to within a 50% effective margin of RifleDreds/psycannons, because one doesnt exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:Or simply weight of numbers. You throw enough Grey Knights at something and it's bound to fall!

and you dont find it ironic the amount of players playing Grey Knights, compared to a year and a half ago when the codex wasnt out.

Smitty0305 wrote:

helium42 wrote:The people who QQ about GKs will keep this thread going in perpetuity.

Yet your posting on it as well

I mainly play Eldar, and here is my problem with Grey Knights.

I cant assault them, because they negate my seer council, my psychic powers, and overall have better armor saves, initiatives, attacks, strength, toughness, and overall better attacks, supported by better HQ's

I cant out- maneuver them, because StormRavens are just as fast as I am, but they have an assault ramp.

I cant out Shoot them - One of their infantry models can out shoot my Main Battle Tank, with a higher Strength, a higher BS, and Rending Shots. 3 RifleDreds can out shoot my entire army, and they cost 400 points, ignore stuns, can easily attain cover, and require no support. If I put EML's on 3 Falcons, with guide support, they out shoot me by a ratio of OVER 60%. If I invest in 650 points of War Walkers, with double guide support, the RifleDreds STILL OUT SHOOT ME.

a GK player has a higher model account, more armor, and more units. There units are better IN EVERY ASPECT.

Do I care if people play grey knights? No.
Do I enjoy playing against grey knights? No.

The codex has no weaknesses. Ive Tried assault based eldar, footdar, Shooting Based Eldar, Autarch dar, and every combination, of every unit, and regardless of what I throw at each unit, GK has a counter that costs less and does more.

Psycannons and RileDreds are too effective. I challenge anyone to find a unit that comes to within a 50% effective margin of RifleDreds/psycannons, because one doesnt exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:Or simply weight of numbers. You throw enough Grey Knights at something and it's bound to fall!

and you dont find it ironic the amount of players playing Grey Knights, compared to a year and a half ago when the codex wasnt out.

I agree. In touniment terms they do nothing badly so leave no hole to exploit. Yes a bad player will always be a bad player and a good player will be good, but GK flatter everyone. Mistakes are not punished in the same way as other forces. Any other force you can think "well my basic plan is".

DE? Shooty them down befor they get to you and don't let them assault. Get um out in the open.
IG or Tau? Get in and carve them up in CC.
SM? Do what your force dose best and avoid what it dose worst.
Necron? Treat them like SM.
GK? What is the hole in what they can do?

The only place they are not that strong is long range against AV14, but they can do enough damage in CC that they roll up in there own AV14, or deep strike, or fly in, and do the job at close range, that this is not a problem.

Stand back and shoot? They can put out the fire power to take you down, and have the saves to shrug off your shots.
Want to Assault them? You'll get a load of psycic powers to effect you, help them and then they will get all the advantages of assaulting and you lose yours.
Wait and be assaulted? Same again, and cover meens nothing to them.
Got psycic powers? Well they have so many psycic powers that you can do nothing to stop most of them, but you'll never get one off at Gray Knights.

Every other force has a weekness and a strength, yet GK have no weekness and unlike Space Marines (who have no huge weekness, but no huge strenght) they are stong in many areas.

For non competative play they can be so easerly taylord. Playing Hordes? Purifier Spam. Playing MEQ? Draigowing with some dreds. CC force? Spam them psycannons and psyrifle dreds, oh and don't forget to use the Int 6 and hammerhand to make sure you kill anyone if you do get in CC. Shoty enamy? Deep strike and symitars on everything.

Just look at the price of basic gray knights. Then look at the price of a basic SM. 100 points with all the cool gear they get for the GK's (better guns, force weapons for all), 105 for the SM with one power weapon.

People keep saying that "the last codex is always seen as OP" but noone is complaining about Necron and the DE complaining went within about a month, once everyone worked out how they played.

The problem isnt Grey Knights.

The real problem is this mech domination in tournaments which has totally knocked out armys that can't do razorback or leafblower spam.

Lets see which are the top armys

grey knights
space wolves
blood angels
imperial guard

oh and they happen to just all do razorback/leafblower spam coincidence? no

Why have eldar, csm and orks gone from top to bottom in the past 4 years?

Eldar armys get shafted thanks to psychic power negation the new books have now.

Chaos Space Marines are exactly the same they cant reliably lash of submission anymore thanks to psychic power negation and the mech domination.

Orks attempt to deal with mech then next turn get shot to pieces.

Electro wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

helium42 wrote:The people who QQ about GKs will keep this thread going in perpetuity.

Yet your posting on it as well

I mainly play Eldar, and here is my problem with Grey Knights.

I cant assault them, because they negate my seer council, my psychic powers, and overall have better armor saves, initiatives, attacks, strength, toughness, and overall better attacks, supported by better HQ's

I cant out- maneuver them, because StormRavens are just as fast as I am, but they have an assault ramp.

I cant out Shoot them - One of their infantry models can out shoot my Main Battle Tank, with a higher Strength, a higher BS, and Rending Shots. 3 RifleDreds can out shoot my entire army, and they cost 400 points, ignore stuns, can easily attain cover, and require no support. If I put EML's on 3 Falcons, with guide support, they out shoot me by a ratio of OVER 60%. If I invest in 650 points of War Walkers, with double guide support, the RifleDreds STILL OUT SHOOT ME.

a GK player has a higher model account, more armor, and more units. There units are better IN EVERY ASPECT.

Do I care if people play grey knights? No.
Do I enjoy playing against grey knights? No.

The codex has no weaknesses. Ive Tried assault based eldar, footdar, Shooting Based Eldar, Autarch dar, and every combination, of every unit, and regardless of what I throw at each unit, GK has a counter that costs less and does more.

Psycannons and RileDreds are too effective. I challenge anyone to find a unit that comes to within a 50% effective margin of RifleDreds/psycannons, because one doesnt exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:Or simply weight of numbers. You throw enough Grey Knights at something and it's bound to fall!

and you dont find it ironic the amount of players playing Grey Knights, compared to a year and a half ago when the codex wasnt out.

I agree. In touniment terms they do nothing badly so leave no hole to exploit. Yes a bad player will always be a bad player and a good player will be good, but GK flatter everyone. Mistakes are not punished in the same way as other forces. Any other force you can think "well my basic plan is".

DE? Shooty them down befor they get to you and don't let them assault. Get um out in the open.
IG or Tau? Get in and carve them up in CC.
SM? Do what your force dose best and avoid what it dose worst.
Necron? Treat them like SM.
GK? What is the hole in what they can do?

The only place they are not that strong is long range against AV14, but they can do enough damage in CC that they roll up in there own AV14, or deep strike, or fly in, and do the job at close range, that this is not a problem.

Stand back and shoot? They can put out the fire power to take you down, and have the saves to shrug off your shots.
Want to Assault them? You'll get a load of psycic powers to effect you, help them and then they will get all the advantages of assaulting and you lose yours.
Wait and be assaulted? Same again, and cover meens nothing to them.
Got psycic powers? Well they have so many psycic powers that you can do nothing to stop most of them, but you'll never get one off at Gray Knights.

Every other force has a weekness and a strength, yet GK have no weekness and unlike Space Marines (who have no huge weekness, but no huge strenght) they are stong in many areas.

For non competative play they can be so easerly taylord. Playing Hordes? Purifier Spam. Playing MEQ? Draigowing with some dreds. CC force? Spam them psycannons and psyrifle dreds, oh and don't forget to use the Int 6 and hammerhand to make sure you kill anyone if you do get in CC. Shoty enamy? Deep strike and symitars on everything.

Just look at the price of basic gray knights. Then look at the price of a basic SM. 100 points with all the cool gear they get for the GK's (better guns, force weapons for all), 105 for the SM with one power weapon.

People keep saying that "the last codex is always seen as OP" but noone is complaining about Necron and the DE complaining went within about a month, once everyone worked out how they played.

this is very well put and so true, when the special wolves came out i looked at the "tac" sqaud equiv and went "wtf" they are cheaper and better in everyway???
But then i looked at the LD and went "ok maybe i can make em run more" but with the LD rules in 40k that is unreliable at best, then looked at the DE "Tac" unit (warrior/trueborn) and thought, ok there good but not broken, then BA, red thirst is all they have over norm tacs, necrons... well they get back up and have a 4+ save so ok, immortals are good but not broken, then came GK and well.... yeah
for 100 pts we get 5 storm bolters, 5 force weapons and psy powers ... really? really?

lets see what we get here
Marines
10 man tac sqaud
meltagun, missile, PW, rhino 225
10 man strike sqaud
rhino 235

So, in order for Nids to be competitive I just need to get a field where nearly 50% of the players take them and then we are guaranteed to have half the top spots when it gets to the final 16? Really? Maybe one or two may slip through due to mirror matches, but do you really think that if the numbers were reversed Nids they would feature just as strongly as GK? What about vanilla marines? Eldar? Sisters? Daemons? Chaos? Do people honestly think if 50% of the field took one of these they would clean up overall? Thought not.

The good players have migrated to GK because they have analysed the codex and felt it gave them their best way of winning. Maybe the codex is not totally broken but it is difficult to argue that it is not currently #1 and then by a good stretch. Look at how much variation there is in the lists taken? What other codex is as tournament competitive with 3-4 very different builds. The next tier of codex can only come up with 1 or 2 main lists with minor variations ...

The nid books bad because in order to be competitive you need to take 6-9 hive guard just to deal with mech.

Formosa wrote:

Electro wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:

helium42 wrote:The people who QQ about GKs will keep this thread going in perpetuity.

Yet your posting on it as well

I mainly play Eldar, and here is my problem with Grey Knights.

I cant assault them, because they negate my seer council, my psychic powers, and overall have better armor saves, initiatives, attacks, strength, toughness, and overall better attacks, supported by better HQ's

I cant out- maneuver them, because StormRavens are just as fast as I am, but they have an assault ramp.

I cant out Shoot them - One of their infantry models can out shoot my Main Battle Tank, with a higher Strength, a higher BS, and Rending Shots. 3 RifleDreds can out shoot my entire army, and they cost 400 points, ignore stuns, can easily attain cover, and require no support. If I put EML's on 3 Falcons, with guide support, they out shoot me by a ratio of OVER 60%. If I invest in 650 points of War Walkers, with double guide support, the RifleDreds STILL OUT SHOOT ME.

a GK player has a higher model account, more armor, and more units. There units are better IN EVERY ASPECT.

Do I care if people play grey knights? No.
Do I enjoy playing against grey knights? No.

The codex has no weaknesses. Ive Tried assault based eldar, footdar, Shooting Based Eldar, Autarch dar, and every combination, of every unit, and regardless of what I throw at each unit, GK has a counter that costs less and does more.

Psycannons and RileDreds are too effective. I challenge anyone to find a unit that comes to within a 50% effective margin of RifleDreds/psycannons, because one doesnt exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:Or simply weight of numbers. You throw enough Grey Knights at something and it's bound to fall!

and you dont find it ironic the amount of players playing Grey Knights, compared to a year and a half ago when the codex wasnt out.

I agree. In touniment terms they do nothing badly so leave no hole to exploit. Yes a bad player will always be a bad player and a good player will be good, but GK flatter everyone. Mistakes are not punished in the same way as other forces. Any other force you can think "well my basic plan is".

DE? Shooty them down befor they get to you and don't let them assault. Get um out in the open.
IG or Tau? Get in and carve them up in CC.
SM? Do what your force dose best and avoid what it dose worst.
Necron? Treat them like SM.
GK? What is the hole in what they can do?

The only place they are not that strong is long range against AV14, but they can do enough damage in CC that they roll up in there own AV14, or deep strike, or fly in, and do the job at close range, that this is not a problem.

Stand back and shoot? They can put out the fire power to take you down, and have the saves to shrug off your shots.
Want to Assault them? You'll get a load of psycic powers to effect you, help them and then they will get all the advantages of assaulting and you lose yours.
Wait and be assaulted? Same again, and cover meens nothing to them.
Got psycic powers? Well they have so many psycic powers that you can do nothing to stop most of them, but you'll never get one off at Gray Knights.

Every other force has a weekness and a strength, yet GK have no weekness and unlike Space Marines (who have no huge weekness, but no huge strenght) they are stong in many areas.

For non competative play they can be so easerly taylord. Playing Hordes? Purifier Spam. Playing MEQ? Draigowing with some dreds. CC force? Spam them psycannons and psyrifle dreds, oh and don't forget to use the Int 6 and hammerhand to make sure you kill anyone if you do get in CC. Shoty enamy? Deep strike and symitars on everything.

Just look at the price of basic gray knights. Then look at the price of a basic SM. 100 points with all the cool gear they get for the GK's (better guns, force weapons for all), 105 for the SM with one power weapon.

People keep saying that "the last codex is always seen as OP" but noone is complaining about Necron and the DE complaining went within about a month, once everyone worked out how they played.

this is very well put and so true, when the special wolves came out i looked at the "tac" sqaud equiv and went "wtf" they are cheaper and better in everyway???
But then i looked at the LD and went "ok maybe i can make em run more" but with the LD rules in 40k that is unreliable at best, then looked at the DE "Tac" unit (warrior/trueborn) and thought, ok there good but not broken, then BA, red thirst is all they have over norm tacs, necrons... well they get back up and have a 4+ save so ok, immortals are good but not broken, then came GK and well.... yeah
for 100 pts we get 5 storm bolters, 5 force weapons and psy powers ... really? really?

lets see what we get here
Marines
10 man tac sqaud
meltagun, missile, PW, rhino 225
10 man strike sqaud
rhino 235

uhh... rhino 10 GK and strike team puts up a lot more. there basic unit is min 20 pts each

also they aren't unbeatable. its just you cant just straight charge and fight them.

what everyone seems to forget is you are always playing missions. heck 2/3 are objectives. that means you should have more scoring units.

not to mention that GK are missing a lot of things. like MELTAGUNS!!!

the problem is everyone is playing to the GK's strengths. i can personally tell you that they can be beat. i have played a guy who has played them basically since they came out. 7 games so far 4 wins 2 ties and 1 lose and the lose was cause i was bored.

they can be beaten just like everyone else. you just have to think.

on the flip side i do say they are an easier army to start with as they are a bit better at everything compared to other codexs. but they also pay for that. and they pay for it hard.

and to finish it off

Formosa wrote:
lets see what we get here
Marines
10 man tac sqaud
meltagun, missile, PW, rhino 225
10 man strike sqaud
rhino 235

kay lets see waht a grey nights squad can get for the same number of points

10 guys 200pts
psybolt ammo 20
psycannon 10
force halbard. 5

so you get a squad that cant move as fast. and if you play right their guns shouldnt do much either.

remember this as well
every time you kill 3 GK they have to kill 4 marines that each cost 15pts.

so they aren't unbeatable. you just have to think



oh and fyi i beat him playing Chaos space marines
just thought you would want to know


gosh this is turning into a long post.

So you from above Smitty0305
you play eldar.
you have a farseer right?
3d6 on physic tests is nothing to ignore considering the fact that everything in the army uses physic powers.

and storm ravens really? really?
what are they running dual raven list? okay show them the power of pulse laser, a bright lance and fire dragons. What Storm Raven?
and so they fast. thats make 2, 3 if hes really dumb, units that are fast, your basic transport has 12/12/10 and costs 100pts! (needs the one mandatory upgrade) you should have a lot more of them. so you should be outmanuvering him.

Warwarkers? Falcons? to out shoot something that has av 12? where are the fire draggons?

actually i am real curiose as to what list you are sunning against the grey knights that, from what i understand, is doing so bad.
so Smitty0305 could you pm me your list. i am really curios as to what it is.

you running dire avengers? bladestorm into a unit that you HAVE to kill, thats doomed and squad is guided.
22 wounds on average that with average rolls is 7 1/3 dead marines. leadership check, followed by the fact that you probobly arent done shotting at him yet.


as for rilfeman dreds. okay i accept your challenge.

rifleman with two autocannons is 190pts

basic wave serpent shurikan cannon with 5 fire draggons. dont just fly up the field, use cover and turn two unload and there is one dead rifleman dread. 180

wraith lord bright lance, missile launcher 155.
i will admit it wont work quiet as well as above one due to wraithsight, but it will mess him up good.

so yeah theres is stuff in the codex to kill rifle man. that will do it.



so any questions?

I'd say that GK's are the closest thing 40k has to a '7th edition Daemons' gak-up.

If the book was just a strong 5th edition book, we wouldn't still be seeing GK's proliferate events like they do. Instead, if were a decently balanced 5th ed book, we'd see them with roughly the same frequency as we see the likes of BA/SW/IG/DE.
Instead, tournaments are still seeing more GK's on average than any other army, meaning the book is above the curve and/or offers more hard counters & shinanigans than any other book - exactly what happended in Fantasy when Daemons of Chaos dropped.

GK's have all but ruined 2 armies entirely, (Daemons & Tyranids), and they likely have the hardest list with henchmen spam, plus 2-3 other top contending lists. They're not quite on the levels of stupid that 7th edition Daemons were, but they're doing to 40k a good deal of what Daemons did to Fantasy, which is sour the game and/or outright ruin opponents' enjoyment.

It's a big fat fail of a codex because it's caused such division amongst the community.

In defense of GK a little bit here - Dark Eldar are probably just as bad a matchup for both those armies. I would rather face GK than DE with my Daemons almost any day of the week.

Tomb King wrote:

Dok wrote:Really? Someone brought this thread back up because Grey Knights finally won a large event?

lol, yes they did to cover more discussion on it. That one large event was 250 strong. In addition, grey knights won the team tournament which was 120 strong. Must be luck of the dice though or people failing to compensate for them.

Did GK's win the team tournament, or did a team win the team tournament?

I think a lot of people forget when they talk about "x army won x event" that someone was playing it. A lot of the experienced players are playing GK's now, SW's won a lot of previous events, then the players who played them swapped to GK's, and continued to win. Is it the book, or does the player have something to do with it?

Our team won the team tournament this year with a GK force, so did GK's win, or was it due to the fact that our team probably had one of the highest concentrations of GT wins of any team there (ie, experienced players). I think between the 4 of us there were 10+ GT wins (Wins coming from GK, IG, SW, Dameons, Nids, etc.).

The other thing to consider is the bias due to the representation of armies. If there are ~12 books and 22% of the field is playing GK's, GK's are probably most likely to win/be represented in the finals, after all, they're vastly over-represented compared to all the other books.

GK's are a very strong book, no doubt, but they're not overpowered or broken in a tournament environment. You put the majority of the best players at the helm of any one book from IG, SW, BA, GK, or Necrons, and that will probably be what you see winning.

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Dok wrote:Really? Someone brought this thread back up because Grey Knights finally won a large event?

lol, yes they did to cover more discussion on it. That one large event was 250 strong. In addition, grey knights won the team tournament which was 120 strong. Must be luck of the dice though or people failing to compensate for them.

Did GK's win the team tournament, or did a team win the team tournament?

I think a lot of people forget when they talk about "x army won x event" that someone was playing it. A lot of the experienced players are playing GK's now, SW's won a lot of previous events, then the players who played them swapped to GK's, and continued to win. Is it the book, or does the player have something to do with it?

Our team won the team tournament this year with a GK force, so did GK's win, or was it due to the fact that our team probably had one of the highest concentrations of GT wins of any team there (ie, experienced players). I think between the 4 of us there were 10+ GT wins (Wins coming from GK, IG, SW, Dameons, Nids, etc.).

The other thing to consider is the bias due to the representation of armies. If there are ~12 books and 22% of the field is playing GK's, GK's are probably most likely to win/be represented in the finals, after all, they're vastly over-represented compared to all the other books.

GK's are a very strong book, no doubt, but they're not overpowered or broken in a tournament environment. You put the majority of the best players at the helm of any one book from IG, SW, BA, GK, or Necrons, and that will probably be what you see winning.

Well said... but you're still playing a cheaty army

frgsinwntr wrote:

Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Dok wrote:Really? Someone brought this thread back up because Grey Knights finally won a large event?

lol, yes they did to cover more discussion on it. That one large event was 250 strong. In addition, grey knights won the team tournament which was 120 strong. Must be luck of the dice though or people failing to compensate for them.

Did GK's win the team tournament, or did a team win the team tournament?

I think a lot of people forget when they talk about "x army won x event" that someone was playing it. A lot of the experienced players are playing GK's now, SW's won a lot of previous events, then the players who played them swapped to GK's, and continued to win. Is it the book, or does the player have something to do with it?

Our team won the team tournament this year with a GK force, so did GK's win, or was it due to the fact that our team probably had one of the highest concentrations of GT wins of any team there (ie, experienced players). I think between the 4 of us there were 10+ GT wins (Wins coming from GK, IG, SW, Dameons, Nids, etc.).

The other thing to consider is the bias due to the representation of armies. If there are ~12 books and 22% of the field is playing GK's, GK's are probably most likely to win/be represented in the finals, after all, they're vastly over-represented compared to all the other books.

GK's are a very strong book, no doubt, but they're not overpowered or broken in a tournament environment. You put the majority of the best players at the helm of any one book from IG, SW, BA, GK, or Necrons, and that will probably be what you see winning.

Well said... but you're still playing a cheaty army

Agreed, but it's one of 4-5 cheaty armies, so that makes me feel slightly less terrible.

Sidenote: I don't feel terrible, I suffered through the dark-ages of the daemon hunters book, so now the grey knight renaissance is feeling pretty good!

kay lets see waht a grey nights squad can get for the same number of points

10 guys 200pts
psybolt ammo 20
psycannon 10
force halbard. 5

so you get a squad that cant move as fast. and if you play right their guns shouldnt do much either.

remember this as well
every time you kill 3 GK they have to kill 4 marines that each cost 15pts.

so they aren't unbeatable. you just have to think

It's posts like this that make me realize just how hardcore the apologists for grey knights are. Remember kids, for equivalent points they have twice as much shooting at higher strength, they all have force weapons, they can make themselves physically stronger, and they have inherent anti deep strike powers! But because they don't have one missile launcher all you have to do is think! Thinking makes that missile launcher suddenly good enough to compete!


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Target wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Dok wrote:Really? Someone brought this thread back up because Grey Knights finally won a large event?

lol, yes they did to cover more discussion on it. That one large event was 250 strong. In addition, grey knights won the team tournament which was 120 strong. Must be luck of the dice though or people failing to compensate for them.

Did GK's win the team tournament, or did a team win the team tournament?

I think a lot of people forget when they talk about "x army won x event" that someone was playing it. A lot of the experienced players are playing GK's now, SW's won a lot of previous events, then the players who played them swapped to GK's, and continued to win. Is it the book, or does the player have something to do with it?

Our team won the team tournament this year with a GK force, so did GK's win, or was it due to the fact that our team probably had one of the highest concentrations of GT wins of any team there (ie, experienced players). I think between the 4 of us there were 10+ GT wins (Wins coming from GK, IG, SW, Dameons, Nids, etc.).

The other thing to consider is the bias due to the representation of armies. If there are ~12 books and 22% of the field is playing GK's, GK's are probably most likely to win/be represented in the finals, after all, they're vastly over-represented compared to all the other books.

GK's are a very strong book, no doubt, but they're not overpowered or broken in a tournament environment. You put the majority of the best players at the helm of any one book from IG, SW, BA, GK, or Necrons, and that will probably be what you see winning.

I have a hard time believing that you'd win with your "perfect concentration of supermen" with a book other than GKs, SWs, or IG. You chose the most powerful available book for the best chance to win the biggest format of tournament. Just own it. It's not a strike against your skill as a player to identify that you're capable of picking and choosing the most optimal codex and build for the format. It's a compliment. You aren't the books author, you're a high level tournament player.

Agreed, but it's one of 4-5 cheaty armies, so that makes me feel slightly less terrible.

I'd argue that it's one of ~3.5 cheaty armies. BAs can't compete against a field of GKs in the meta (feel no pain and furious charge is uselss against the glories of the stick with a sword at the end) and Necrons are too matchup dependent to be capable in such a lengthy tournament format.

All passengers are auto-pinned (even fearless) on a destroyed result. All passengers make a pinning check on a wreck result. This alone would help bring some balance back to the game and not make mech lists aweful at the same time.

DarthDiggler wrote:All passengers are auto-pinned (even fearless) on a destroyed result. All passengers make a pinning check on a wreck result. This alone would help bring some balance back to the game and not make mech lists aweful at the same time.

Wasn't that what entanglement did in 4th edition? I skipped 4th, but didn't hear good things.

Meh. It was only 6 weeks old. Boarderline necromancy at best. Also, this discussion has been spot-on topic other than you two.

Don't get your knickers in a twist.

Also, there's a little yellow triangle you can hit to alert a moderator. Just do it if you think it's necromancy. Keep the drama on the down-low.

pretre wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:All passengers are auto-pinned (even fearless) on a destroyed result. All passengers make a pinning check on a wreck result. This alone would help bring some balance back to the game and not make mech lists aweful at the same time.

Wasn't that what entanglement did in 4th edition? I skipped 4th, but didn't hear good things.

It wasn't good, but keep in mind most transports were 50% more expensive back then and about twice as easy to kill given that two more results on the tables resulted in a wrecked result. It's a bad mechanic in general more because it's kind of a dealbreaker for taking a transport at all regardless of cost than it is because it was bad in fourth. It wouldn't be nearly so damaging these days.