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DarthDiggler wrote:All passengers are auto-pinned (even fearless) on a destroyed result. All passengers make a pinning check on a wreck result. This alone would help bring some balance back to the game and not make mech lists aweful at the same time.

Which wouldn't hurt GK's as much as many other armies. You'd see Eldar armies for instance probably hurt more than anyone else. There's a reason they ditched the "auto-pinned" rule, it was just too punitive.



As to the adepticon results, not too surprised at how they turned out or the most popular armies present. Last year ~40% of the armies were SW's. This year between GK's and SW's it was nearly half of the lists present. With armies like GK's and SW's that can simultaneously outmaneuver, outfight and outshoot many if not most opponents, it's not terribly difficult to see why.

Vaktathi wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:All passengers are auto-pinned (even fearless) on a destroyed result. All passengers make a pinning check on a wreck result. This alone would help bring some balance back to the game and not make mech lists aweful at the same time.

Which wouldn't hurt GK's as much as many other armies. You'd see Eldar armies for instance probably hurt more than anyone else. There's a reason they ditched the "auto-pinned" rule, it was just too punitive.



As to the adepticon results, not too surprised at how they turned out or the most popular armies present. Last year ~40% of the armies were SW's. This year between GK's and SW's it was nearly half of the lists present. With armies like GK's and SW's that can simultaneously outmaneuver, outfight and outshoot many if not most opponents, it's not terribly difficult to see why.

Very true. My issue with gk is the points cost, those stupid effing grenades (no other single piece of wargear in the game can single handedly win combat), and riflemen dreads. Gk just have everything cheaper and far more reliable than any other dex. I also still don't get why they did 2 fire modes for psycannons... 4 str 7 shots per psycannon is a little insane. It just seems completely unfair to other marine dex's.

And while others may say the same about sw, they are a great dex, but beatable. Give a gk army to a vetern player and its stupid hard to beat... Just seems that no matter what a gk player chooses they have an answer to everything. So either the gk dex was overbalanced, or every other dex was underbalanced in comparisson. Of course, things could completely change in 6th and necrons may be seen as the op dex...

4 str 7 shots per psycannon is a little insane. It just seems completely unfair to other marine dex's.

They're also 10 points cheaper than assault canons!

ShumaGorath wrote:

4 str 7 shots per psycannon is a little insane. It just seems completely unfair to other marine dex's.

They're also 10 points cheaper than assault canons!

And can be on infantry!

ShumaGorath wrote:

4 str 7 shots per psycannon is a little insane. It just seems completely unfair to other marine dex's.

They're also 10 points cheaper than assault canons!

That's fething ridiculous.

I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Vaktathi wrote:
Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Yes, and those things are almost never taken because of their cost and lack of impact.

Those other codecies weren't available to be rewritten, this one was.

LValx wrote:Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Def agree but oh well. Reinforced Aegis really has no reason to exist. I wouldn't mind Psybolts quite so much if they were just hammerhand for shooting (ie:they need to psychic test for it), at least then armies without the ability to take psychic defense would get SOMETHING for shaking/stunning dreads and razors.

LValx wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Fangs can't be shaken, benefit better from cover, can split fire, have another shot, and have acute senses. Their weapon is also ap3 which gives them MEQ killing power, something that the psyflemen dreads lack. They're wholly comparable and in the end fill the same role in the same way.

LValx wrote:
Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

I can't tell if you're serious or not? Long fangs are fair? We've come a long way in this thread if people are thinking that long fangs are fair. Where's everyone's precious unit comparisons when that bs comes out?

Ability to tie up non CC units? Because you often find non-CC units in the backfield... That's definitely a factor to consider. (/sarcasm)
Yes, dreadnoughts are more mobile than long fangs. They also have an armour value and difficulty finding adequate cover. They also don't have 5 heavy weapons and the ability to split fire. Nor do they have acute senses. Or counterattack. (For all those non-cc units that make it back where you perched them!)

What does the annihilation barge have to do with long fangs? But, speaking of such, necron vehicles get fortitude for free! Living metal is much stronger than fortitude imo. Psychic defense does nothing to stop it. Most necron vehicles have at least av13, so you are much more likely to see glance results and therefore use the ability more.

Dok wrote:But, speaking of such, necron vehicles get fortitude for free! Living metal is much stronger than fortitude imo. Psychic defense does nothing to stop it. Most necron vehicles have at least av13, so you are much more likely to see glance results and therefore use the ability more.

Psychic defense only matters so much, fortitude is without a doubt better. When being glanced to death, a Necron player is forced to roll per shaken and stunned result (only ignoring the latter 50% of the time), where as the GK player gets to just roll just one 2d6 to ignore all shaken and stunned results.

Your argument about psychic defense is moot, because let's say that works 50% of the time. Well the Necron player is still remaining stunned 50% of the time anyway against any army whether they have psychic defense or not.

Yes, quantum helps this a bit, but that really shouldn't be included in the consideration of Living Metal vs Fortitude. Regardless of your AV, fortitude is a superior power. If you really want to directly compare them then compare Scythes to GK Rhino/Razorbacks.

Dok wrote:

LValx wrote:
Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

I can't tell if you're serious or not? Long fangs are fair? We've come a long way in this thread if people are thinking that long fangs are fair. Where's everyone's precious unit comparisons when that bs comes out?

Ability to tie up non CC units? Because you often find non-CC units in the backfield... That's definitely a factor to consider. (/sarcasm)
Yes, dreadnoughts are more mobile than long fangs. They also have an armour value and difficulty finding adequate cover. They also don't have 5 heavy weapons and the ability to split fire. Nor do they have acute senses. Or counterattack. (For all those non-cc units that make it back where you perched them!)

What does the annihilation barge have to do with long fangs? But, speaking of such, necron vehicles get fortitude for free! Living metal is much stronger than fortitude imo. Psychic defense does nothing to stop it. Most necron vehicles have at least av13, so you are much more likely to see glance results and therefore use the ability more.

A PsifleDred is a much better unit than a unit of longfangs.

Living metal is much stronger than fortitude imo. Psychic defense does nothing to stop it. Most necron vehicles have at least av13, so you are much more likely to see glance results and therefore use the ability more.

Excepting eldar it's going to be rare to have psychic defense near your psyflemen. You also only have to take fortitude once, whereas it's quite easy to shake an av13 vehicle two or three times at once forcing an eventual failure on living metal. Fortitude when you discount psychic defense is quite a bit better mathematically the moment you start encountering situations where you are stunned or shaken multiple times. You also can't make venerable necron vehicles which are better than av13 for forcing shaken/stunned results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Smitty0305 wrote:

Dok wrote:

LValx wrote:
Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

I can't tell if you're serious or not? Long fangs are fair? We've come a long way in this thread if people are thinking that long fangs are fair. Where's everyone's precious unit comparisons when that bs comes out?

Ability to tie up non CC units? Because you often find non-CC units in the backfield... That's definitely a factor to consider. (/sarcasm)
Yes, dreadnoughts are more mobile than long fangs. They also have an armour value and difficulty finding adequate cover. They also don't have 5 heavy weapons and the ability to split fire. Nor do they have acute senses. Or counterattack. (For all those non-cc units that make it back where you perched them!)

What does the annihilation barge have to do with long fangs? But, speaking of such, necron vehicles get fortitude for free! Living metal is much stronger than fortitude imo. Psychic defense does nothing to stop it. Most necron vehicles have at least av13, so you are much more likely to see glance results and therefore use the ability more.

A PsifleDred is a much better unit than a unit of longfangs.

At killing rhinos. It's about on par for most else and worse in some areas. Rhino killing is just really important.

Dok wrote:

LValx wrote:
Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

I can't tell if you're serious or not? Long fangs are fair? We've come a long way in this thread if people are thinking that long fangs are fair. Where's everyone's precious unit comparisons when that bs comes out?

Ability to tie up non CC units? Because you often find non-CC units in the backfield... That's definitely a factor to consider. (/sarcasm)
Yes, dreadnoughts are more mobile than long fangs. They also have an armour value and difficulty finding adequate cover. They also don't have 5 heavy weapons and the ability to split fire. Nor do they have acute senses. Or counterattack. (For all those non-cc units that make it back where you perched them!)

What does the annihilation barge have to do with long fangs? But, speaking of such, necron vehicles get fortitude for free! Living metal is much stronger than fortitude imo. Psychic defense does nothing to stop it. Most necron vehicles have at least av13, so you are much more likely to see glance results and therefore use the ability more.

If you advance the dreads behind your vehicle formation they will always have 4+ and they can see over rhinos/razors. Second of all keeping them somewhat near your troops allows you to use them to tarpit if necessary. The mobility is the biggest reason they are better though. Long Fangs get screwed in about 1/3 of tournament missions. Dawn of War is incredibly unkind to them and the terrain heavy boards you see at better tourneys will generally require you to spend at least 1 full turn positioning them for good shots. Fangs are okay, but I'd rather have a fully mechanized force. In such a force the dreads are more survivable because you must choose between delaying the troops or blowing the dreads away. Against spacewolves you can use ranged anti infantry to hit the fangs and anti tank for vehicles. A mixed force has more weaknesses. The anni barge was simply another example of undercosted, good heavy support. In fact i'd say IG, DE, SW, GK all have similar long range firing batteries. Dreads, Fangs, Vendettas, Barges. I would say Dreads are easily the best and that the others are all on about the same level.

Long Fangs have their advantages over psyflemen. The psyflemen are better but not by much. Fortitude, twin linked and move+shoot give the dread a slight edge. With two attacks apiece and counter charge Long Fangs are better at repelling an enemy charge.

-666- wrote:Long Fangs have their advantages over psyflemen. The psyflemen are better but not by much. Fortitude, twin linked and move+shoot give the dread a slight edge. With two attacks apiece and counter charge Long Fangs are better at repelling an enemy charge.

They have more offensive capability in CC. The dread has more protection, many troops in the game cannot kill a dread. Ever. I'll take the tarpit over a few flimsy attacks. Having used both support options quite frequently I can say with confidence that I find the dread superior. I will agree that for certain things fangs are superior. The ability to not be one-shotted is great. However, they do have leadership (which is always devastating when they fail). The split-fire ability really isn't nearly as useful as people make it out to be. The pack leader always bites the dust first. And against most covered vehicles you'll need 4-5 missile shots to get any results.

LValx wrote:

-666- wrote:Long Fangs have their advantages over psyflemen. The psyflemen are better but not by much. Fortitude, twin linked and move+shoot give the dread a slight edge. With two attacks apiece and counter charge Long Fangs are better at repelling an enemy charge.

They have more offensive capability in CC. The dread has more protection, many troops in the game cannot kill a dread. Ever. I'll take the tarpit over a few flimsy attacks. Having used both support options quite frequently I can say with confidence that I find the dread superior. I will agree that for certain things fangs are superior. The ability to not be one-shotted is great. However, they do have leadership (which is always devastating when they fail). The split-fire ability really isn't nearly as useful as people make it out to be. The pack leader always bites the dust first. And against most covered vehicles you'll need 4-5 missile shots to get any results.

Ap3 is fairly important. Long fangs are significantly better at killing MEQs/monstrous creatures/hordes. The point of splitting firing is to avoid redundant successful results. It only improves your upper ceiling of effectiveness.

ShumaGorath wrote:

LValx wrote:

-666- wrote:Long Fangs have their advantages over psyflemen. The psyflemen are better but not by much. Fortitude, twin linked and move+shoot give the dread a slight edge. With two attacks apiece and counter charge Long Fangs are better at repelling an enemy charge.

They have more offensive capability in CC. The dread has more protection, many troops in the game cannot kill a dread. Ever. I'll take the tarpit over a few flimsy attacks. Having used both support options quite frequently I can say with confidence that I find the dread superior. I will agree that for certain things fangs are superior. The ability to not be one-shotted is great. However, they do have leadership (which is always devastating when they fail). The split-fire ability really isn't nearly as useful as people make it out to be. The pack leader always bites the dust first. And against most covered vehicles you'll need 4-5 missile shots to get any results.

Ap3 is fairly important. Long fangs are significantly better at killing MEQs/monstrous creatures/hordes. The point of splitting firing is to avoid redundant successful results. It only improves your upper ceiling of effectiveness.

The ap3 is fairly pointless. Almost always will MEQ's have cover. The MC and Horde points I will agree with. And I understand the split fire, I played wolves for 2 years. I am just saying that you will not often get to use it. I always take saves on the pack leader first. He generally doesn't live past one turn. Fangs have more duality due to the frag templates. But generally good players will keep a mind to that. It's mostly devastating after you get an explosion and have those nice bunches. I think Fangs are great, but I soured on them a lot after attending NOVA last year and being held back by their lack of mobility. If a unit is to be my main source of ranged firepower I'd like it to be able to consistently get LoS on enemies. Fangs struggle sometimes in that respect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and to add to undercosted sources of firepower:
BT Landspeeder squadrons.
2 Typhoons cost the same as 5 ML Fangs.

Having played BT as of late, I personally find the Typhoons to be MUCH better at their job than the Fangs. I can reserve them to get alpha strikes, deep strike them, hide them behind hills. Moving 12" means I can often spot side-shots too.

Having played BT as of late, I personally find the Typhoons to be MUCH better at their job than the Fangs. I can reserve them to get alpha strikes, deep strike them, hide them behind hills. Moving 12" means I can often spot side-shots too.

Unfortunately the rest of the templar army doesn't function as well as the wolf one. The speeders are also vastly more vulnerable to... Psyflemen! They're a great and like undercosted back line firepower unit regardless though.

Long Fangs vs Psyflemen

The units are just about equal, and each has their advantages.

Fangs:
-Can't get one shot-ed
-Firepower is higher AP (relevant against nid big bugs, etc.)
-Different weapon loadouts (lascannons) to maximize split fire
-Split fire
-Can repel (and win with marine statline and counter attack) a lot of the back-field threats that dreads can't, for instance, wolf scouts don't slaughter long fangs like they do a dread
-Can fire frags for more of a dual-purpose when playing against hordes (psyfles do not torrent cheap bodies out of cover in any sort of efficient manner)
-Much less vulnerable in KP missions, as you can hide the remnants of a squad before losing all of it many times, rather than a dread, which is either alive or dead, all at once.

Dread:
-Better in DOW as it can move and fire, and better in general at maximizing fire lanes/targets
-AV value means many things just can't hurt it, in a saturation of armor list (mech spam GK) it divides their fire significantly
-Slightly more hits
-Fires at full capacity until just a couple damage results (rather than losing members of a squad gradually)
-No leadership issues

Psyfle Dreads tarpitting is not an advantage. Their purpose is to stay out of combat to continue firing. If you charge a psyfle and the combat becomes a tarpit, you have won. It will kill at most a model per turn, even if you can't kill it, you've neutralized it's fire power for a couple turns at least. Dreads tarpitting is an advantage if you're using an advancing dread (like a claw/multimelta venerable) to tie up units you want to tie up. But any time you neutralize a units purpose, it's not a positive.

ShumaGorath wrote:

LValx wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Fangs can't be shaken, benefit better from cover, can split fire, have another shot, and have acute senses. Their weapon is also ap3 which gives them MEQ killing power, something that the psyflemen dreads lack. They're wholly comparable and in the end fill the same role in the same way.

Psyrifle dreads can abuse cover better imo.

What's stopping you obscuring the bottom half a psyriflemen dread and getting a +4 cover save?.

Don't get me wrong long fangs are great but they are still only a 4 shots marine squad while the dread is 4 shots and twin linked and has av to deal with.

Farmer wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LValx wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Fangs can't be shaken, benefit better from cover, can split fire, have another shot, and have acute senses. Their weapon is also ap3 which gives them MEQ killing power, something that the psyflemen dreads lack. They're wholly comparable and in the end fill the same role in the same way.

Psyrifle dreads can abuse cover better imo.

What's stopping you obscuring the bottom half a psyriflemen dread and getting a +4 cover save?.

Don't get me wrong long fangs are great but they are still only a 4 shots marine squad while the dread is 4 shots and twin linked and has av to deal with.

Fangs have five heavy weapons.

Matt ward: You mean the autocannon dreads are are good? people take them?

GW tester: yea!

Matt Ward: OK! I'll make it so all of the GK units can be a autocannon dread...!

GW tester: NO! thats soo broken! And it makes the auto dread less special...

Matt Ward: OK! i'll make the GK auto dreads stronger!

GW tester: what?!? that doesn't fix the problem...

Mattward: OK! I'll reduce the range but thats too weak... they need to REND! AND THEY need to make your opponents models catch on fire when they shoot!

GW tester: But... we can't make models spontaniously combust....

Matt Ward: OK! then lets give them forceweapons!

Gw tester: Are you on somthing?

Matt Ward: OK! great idea! lets give them drug grenades!

Farmer wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LValx wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Fangs can't be shaken, benefit better from cover, can split fire, have another shot, and have acute senses. Their weapon is also ap3 which gives them MEQ killing power, something that the psyflemen dreads lack. They're wholly comparable and in the end fill the same role in the same way.

Psyrifle dreads can abuse cover better imo.

What's stopping you obscuring the bottom half a psyriflemen dread and getting a +4 cover save?.

Don't get me wrong long fangs are great but they are still only a 4 shots marine squad while the dread is 4 shots and twin linked and has av to deal with.

Whats stopping you is whether there is actually terrain that obscures the bottom but not the top. Infantry models won't obscure enough since they aren't tall enough, and it's TLOS, so you factor in all the spaces they leave between legs, arms, etc.

With the plethora of area terrain, I've yet to see long fangs without it.

I would just like to add that I took a 2000 pt daemons list against my friends strike squad spam list.. .warp quake EVERYWHERE, and still BARELY lost, it was only after the game that I remembered I asked him to play a 2500 pt game with me.... a conversation he apparently remembered... unfortunately I did not...

So ya, while he and I discussed the GK strengths and weaknesses to death, our conclusion was that yes, they are nasty, but they are still marines, and that is, for their cost, their biggest weakness

ShumaGorath wrote:

Farmer wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

LValx wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm still not quite sure what Mat Ward was looking at when he decided 5pts was a good number for upgrades like Psychic Pilot or whatever it is and Psybolts on something that can mount two linked autocannons.

Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Those two things also account for a whole lot of the power of the army, being unable to stop the vehicles and the Pysrifleman basically being an auto-include AT crutch that removes what otherwise would be one of their few weaknesses. I can't recall the last time I saw a non-Draigo GK list without at least two, much like SW's without at least 2 Long Fang squads.

It's amusing how similar long fangs and psyflemen are in use, cost, and function. When I say amusing I mean to say aggravating. Having a fundamentally undercosted anti mech ranged support unit in a close/medium range fire support and combat army seems to be a winning combo. Is your army weak to ranged firepower? Here you go! Have a half priced superunit in the same slot!

Comparing psyflemen to fangs is absurd. Psyflemen are far better. More accurate, ability to tie up non cc units. Gives increased psychic protection. MOBILITY. Fangs are pretty fair, especially now that the Annihilation Barge has been released. The Psyflemen are just nasty though.

Fangs can't be shaken, benefit better from cover, can split fire, have another shot, and have acute senses. Their weapon is also ap3 which gives them MEQ killing power, something that the psyflemen dreads lack. They're wholly comparable and in the end fill the same role in the same way.

Psyrifle dreads can abuse cover better imo.

What's stopping you obscuring the bottom half a psyriflemen dread and getting a +4 cover save?.

Don't get me wrong long fangs are great but they are still only a 4 shots marine squad while the dread is 4 shots and twin linked and has av to deal with.

Fangs have five heavy weapons.

Sorry 5 shots then but the dread is still hitting on average more times then longfangs are.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I would just like to add that I took a 2000 pt daemons list against my friends strike squad spam list.. .warp quake EVERYWHERE, and still BARELY lost, it was only after the game that I remembered I asked him to play a 2500 pt game with me.... a conversation he apparently remembered... unfortunately I did not...

So ya, while he and I discussed the GK strengths and weaknesses to death, our conclusion was that yes, they are nasty, but they are still marines, and that is, for their cost, their biggest weakness

Single instances aren't the most useful. If they were, then grots would be the best thing to take down tooled up ICs since that one time my grots killed the crap out of a Chaos Lord.

pretre wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I would just like to add that I took a 2000 pt daemons list against my friends strike squad spam list.. .warp quake EVERYWHERE, and still BARELY lost, it was only after the game that I remembered I asked him to play a 2500 pt game with me.... a conversation he apparently remembered... unfortunately I did not...

So ya, while he and I discussed the GK strengths and weaknesses to death, our conclusion was that yes, they are nasty, but they are still marines, and that is, for their cost, their biggest weakness

Single instances aren't the most useful. If they were, then grots would be the best thing to take down tooled up ICs since that one time my grots killed the crap out of a Chaos Lord.

Wait so your saying grots arent IC killers... maybe thats why I have been losing so much.

During the team tournament this last weekend one of my partners left so I was forced to play two armies in the 4th round. Mine and my team mates GK army. I apologized throughout the game as my team mate had 2 rifelman heavy dreads and 1 elite ven dread. In one turn they hit 12 times and wounded 12 times. It was brutal. Kind of felt bad for my opponents but it is what it is.