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Target wrote:

Psyfle Dreads tarpitting is not an advantage. Their purpose is to stay out of combat to continue firing. If you charge a psyfle and the combat becomes a tarpit, you have won. It will kill at most a model per turn, even if you can't kill it, you've neutralized it's fire power for a couple turns at least. Dreads tarpitting is an advantage if you're using an advancing dread (like a claw/multimelta venerable) to tie up units you want to tie up. But any time you neutralize a units purpose, it's not a positive.

I've found it works, I can tarpit a unit then charge it a turn later with some PAGK. Usually wiping that squad out and freeing up the dread. I am not saying it is optimal but I have tied up things like Crusher's or DCA without multiple hammerhands. I think both squads are great, I just find the dreads to be a little better at popping armor over the course of the game, which is generally what I want my fangs to do as well.

morgendonner wrote:
Psychic defense only matters so much, fortitude is without a doubt better. When being glanced to death, a Necron player is forced to roll per shaken and stunned result (only ignoring the latter 50% of the time), where as the GK player gets to just roll just one 2d6 to ignore all shaken and stunned results.

Your argument about psychic defense is moot, because let's say that works 50% of the time. Well the Necron player is still remaining stunned 50% of the time anyway against any army whether they have psychic defense or not.

Yes, quantum helps this a bit, but that really shouldn't be included in the consideration of Living Metal vs Fortitude. Regardless of your AV, fortitude is a superior power. If you really want to directly compare them then compare Scythes to GK Rhino/Razorbacks.

If psychic defense only mattered so much, there wouldn't be an endless amount of lamenting that certain armies don't have it. Also, "being Glanced to death" is excellent for an AV13 vehicle. It means your opponent is pouring a large amount of firepower into one vehicle and achieving sub-optimal results. If they are glancing your AV13's multiple times and you have to roll a 2+ a couple times, then that's more than most vehicles get. And for 0 points. Sometimes it's 2d6. Sometimes it's 3d6. Sometimes it's 2d followed by a roll off. Sometimes it's 2d6 that is negated on a 4+/3+. Nothing stops living metal.

Yes, psychic defense works only sometimes. But with the low model count that most GK armies have, that sometimes is super important. You cannot disregard AV though. More weapons will have an effect on a dread, causing more needs to test. Only S7 and above can have any effect on necron vehicles. And if they are shooting their S7 at your vehicles, you should be super happy, because you will most likely ignore the result and you have no chance to lose your quantum shielding.

LValx wrote:

Target wrote:

Psyfle Dreads tarpitting is not an advantage. Their purpose is to stay out of combat to continue firing. If you charge a psyfle and the combat becomes a tarpit, you have won. It will kill at most a model per turn, even if you can't kill it, you've neutralized it's fire power for a couple turns at least. Dreads tarpitting is an advantage if you're using an advancing dread (like a claw/multimelta venerable) to tie up units you want to tie up. But any time you neutralize a units purpose, it's not a positive.

I've found it works, I can tarpit a unit then charge it a turn later with some PAGK. Usually wiping that squad out and freeing up the dread. I am not saying it is optimal but I have tied up things like Crusher's or DCA without multiple hammerhands. I think both squads are great, I just find the dreads to be a little better at popping armor over the course of the game, which is generally what I want my fangs to do as well.

True, it does have some situational uses, but your Psyfledreads in general should not be near enough to enemy infantry to charge and tarpit as a function. They're a backfield unit, not a mid-field control unit. In a game with 2 moderately skilled or above players, psyfles should not typically have a situation occur that involves them being able to charge something like crushers or DCA's.

Having played both and played against both, I personally prefer Psyfles due to the mobility, but it's by a hairsbreadth, because the multi-purpose (anti-horde with frags, anti monster with ap 3, and anti-armor) and lack of a need of backfield protection that long fangs bring to the table is big in an all-comers environment. Your typicaly 3-6 psyfle dreads + psyback list with minimal combat GK army struggles against hordes armies like orks and tyranids, as you can't always torrent things down.

Dok wrote:

morgendonner wrote:
Psychic defense only matters so much, fortitude is without a doubt better. When being glanced to death, a Necron player is forced to roll per shaken and stunned result (only ignoring the latter 50% of the time), where as the GK player gets to just roll just one 2d6 to ignore all shaken and stunned results.

Your argument about psychic defense is moot, because let's say that works 50% of the time. Well the Necron player is still remaining stunned 50% of the time anyway against any army whether they have psychic defense or not.

Yes, quantum helps this a bit, but that really shouldn't be included in the consideration of Living Metal vs Fortitude. Regardless of your AV, fortitude is a superior power. If you really want to directly compare them then compare Scythes to GK Rhino/Razorbacks.

If psychic defense only mattered so much, there wouldn't be an endless amount of lamenting that certain armies don't have it. Also, "being Glanced to death" is excellent for an AV13 vehicle. It means your opponent is pouring a large amount of firepower into one vehicle and achieving sub-optimal results. If they are glancing your AV13's multiple times and you have to roll a 2+ a couple times, then that's more than most vehicles get. And for 0 points. Sometimes it's 2d6. Sometimes it's 3d6. Sometimes it's 2d followed by a roll off. Sometimes it's 2d6 that is negated on a 4+/3+. Nothing stops living metal.

Yes, psychic defense works only sometimes. But with the low model count that most GK armies have, that sometimes is super important. You cannot disregard AV though. More weapons will have an effect on a dread, causing more needs to test. Only S7 and above can have any effect on necron vehicles. And if they are shooting their S7 at your vehicles, you should be super happy, because you will most likely ignore the result and you have no chance to lose your quantum shielding.

Psychic defense is more important for preventing hammerhand spam and shrouding than it is rushing a librarian to the middle of the table (where it will then die) to prevent his dreads which are hugging the edge from ignoring shaken results half the time. You're overstating both the effectiveness and commonality of psychic defense against fortitude. It will rarely happen for many armies who can't project psychic defense across the table very well. Amusingly, the best armies to prevent it are wolves and other GKs.

If you've rushed up your psychic defense than they don't really need to have the psyfles ranging you anymore since you just delivered your HQ to the grinder.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Excepting eldar it's going to be rare to have psychic defense near your psyflemen. You also only have to take fortitude once, whereas it's quite easy to shake an av13 vehicle two or three times at once forcing an eventual failure on living metal. Fortitude when you discount psychic defense is quite a bit better mathematically the moment you start encountering situations where you are stunned or shaken multiple times. You also can't make venerable necron vehicles which are better than av13 for forcing shaken/stunned results.

I disagree with this completely. Any army with a librarian or shadows in the warp is going to be advancing them at least to midfield. The only one I could see potentially hanging back is SW rune priest for living lightning, but then a smart player would still advance in hopes of shutting of the power on a 4+. Venerable is a whole other story. A +60 points story. Venerable psyrifleman are one of the most survivable units in the game imo. They are also almost 200 points.

LValx wrote:
If you advance the dreads behind your vehicle formation they will always have 4+ and they can see over rhinos/razors. Second of all keeping them somewhat near your troops allows you to use them to tarpit if necessary. The mobility is the biggest reason they are better though. Long Fangs get screwed in about 1/3 of tournament missions. Dawn of War is incredibly unkind to them and the terrain heavy boards you see at better tourneys will generally require you to spend at least 1 full turn positioning them for good shots. Fangs are okay, but I'd rather have a fully mechanized force. In such a force the dreads are more survivable because you must choose between delaying the troops or blowing the dreads away. Against spacewolves you can use ranged anti infantry to hit the fangs and anti tank for vehicles. A mixed force has more weaknesses. The anni barge was simply another example of undercosted, good heavy support. In fact i'd say IG, DE, SW, GK all have similar long range firing batteries. Dreads, Fangs, Vendettas, Barges. I would say Dreads are easily the best and that the others are all on about the same level.

They will have cover against somethings. Also, dreadnoughts being able to see over rhinos is a fallacy. At worst, you will not be able to see anything that's the same height as the rhino. At best, you will be able to see things that are above the rhino Tlos-wise, but they will also be able to see you as the majority of the model is above the legs. As someone else said, if you are tarpitting your own dread then you are losing it's shooting efficiency. Sometimes you need to do it, but it's far from optimal.

Let's talk about mobility in dawn of war. Unless you are paying for searchlights, the dread is going to serve much the same purpose on the first turn. And that's if your opponent even deployed anything. (assuming you have first turn) If you are going second, then at best you are shooting at something in cover that is searchlighted. That is only slightly better than long fangs who will get to move on, run and get into position for night-fightingless shots on turn 2. An additional caveat is that you can also take another razorback with your squad of long fangs which adds to that 1 heavy slots firepower. The points go up, but you get an additional las/plas (or whatever) to add to your firebase.

I would say vendettas are far above the rest of the things you listed. They can transport scoring units, come with EA for free, and have 3 twin linked lascannons. As well as being scouts, which lets you basically put them wherever you want them or outflank if you need to. They are ridiculously undercosted for the amount of stuff they come with.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Ap3 is fairly important. Long fangs are significantly better at killing MEQs/monstrous creatures/hordes. The point of splitting firing is to avoid redundant successful results. It only improves your upper ceiling of effectiveness.

AP3 is way important. It's something GK don't have much of. Killing MEQs/big bugs is something that long fangs excel at.

I disagree with this completely. Any army with a librarian or shadows in the warp is going to be advancing them at least to midfield. The only one I could see potentially hanging back is SW rune priest for living lightning, but then a smart player would still advance in hopes of shutting of the power on a 4+. Venerable is a whole other story. A +60 points story. Venerable psyrifleman are one of the most survivable units in the game imo. They are also almost 200 points.

They'll move up, but GKs are generally benefited by that. They're a volume heavy midrange and close combat army. Nids are going to have to walk through the entire GK line before they are within 12" of a psyfledread. They're much more likely to approach razorbacks or rhinos, but those often wont survive to fortitude anyway, so it's at times a wash and it's not what we're talking about.

It would probably be best to keep Mephiston at range where he can use his plasma pistol efficiently!

That was sarcasm in-case the internet failed to deliver it properly.

Blood Lord Soldado wrote:It would probably be best to keep Mephiston at range where he can use his plasma pistol efficiently!

That was sarcasm in-case the internet failed to deliver it properly.

Umm, did you post in the wrong thread?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Psychic defense is more important for preventing hammerhand spam and shrouding than it is rushing a librarian to the middle of the table (where it will then die) to prevent his dreads which are hugging the edge from ignoring shaken results half the time. You're overstating both the effectiveness and commonality of psychic defense against fortitude. It will rarely happen for many armies who can't project psychic defense across the table very well. Amusingly, the best armies to prevent it are wolves and other GKs.

If you've rushed up your psychic defense than they don't really need to have the psyfles ranging you anymore since you just delivered your HQ to the grinder.

I didn't say anything about rushing, but BA, GK, SW, and 'nids to a certain extent are all advancing their psychic defense to mid-field most games. Even C:SM if they are playing terminators. Eldar and DA cover the whole board, but they are less relevant to a tournament discussion.

Blood Lord Soldado wrote:It would probably be best to keep Mephiston at range where he can use his plasma pistol efficiently!

That was sarcasm in-case the internet failed to deliver it properly.

Yes, mephiston is much better up close where he dies to one force weapon.


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Dok wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Psychic defense is more important for preventing hammerhand spam and shrouding than it is rushing a librarian to the middle of the table (where it will then die) to prevent his dreads which are hugging the edge from ignoring shaken results half the time. You're overstating both the effectiveness and commonality of psychic defense against fortitude. It will rarely happen for many armies who can't project psychic defense across the table very well. Amusingly, the best armies to prevent it are wolves and other GKs.

If you've rushed up your psychic defense than they don't really need to have the psyfles ranging you anymore since you just delivered your HQ to the grinder.

I didn't say anything about rushing, but BA, GK, SW, and 'nids to a certain extent are all advancing their psychic defense to mid-field most games. Even C:SM if they are playing terminators. Eldar and DA cover the whole board, but they are less relevant to a tournament discussion.

Nids defense is 12 inches. Thats well more than midfield. GKs are GKs, wolves are wolves, BAs lose to GKs almost automatically anyway and don't have much to shake the tanks with regardless. The meta favors fortitude a lot. Also, given that this tourney had literally zero nids in it and plenty of DEs i'd say that they're more relevant.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I would just like to add that I took a 2000 pt daemons list against my friends strike squad spam list.. .warp quake EVERYWHERE, and still BARELY lost, it was only after the game that I remembered I asked him to play a 2500 pt game with me.... a conversation he apparently remembered... unfortunately I did not...

So ya, while he and I discussed the GK strengths and weaknesses to death, our conclusion was that yes, they are nasty, but they are still marines, and that is, for their cost, their biggest weakness

So, if you landed anything then it means that;
a) You got first turn.
b) He doesn't know how to properly spread his models out and/or you rolled a 'Hit!' on pretty much every scatter roll.
c) The table was huge. (ie: bigger than the standard 6'x4' type)
d) All of the above!

On a 6'x4' table, it takes only 30 warp quake capable models to lock off almost the entire table. (you'll have about a 6"-8" square area to land). Just a single 10 man squad spaced out the full 2" creates roughly a 22"x30" bubble of auto-mishap. Now add in the average 7" of a potential scatter, and you can see just quickly your deployment options shrink.
If a GK player is being a list tailoring TFG, then he'll take 2x 10 man interceptors + 1x 10 man strike squad. The strikes combat squad & deploy around the top-center of their deployment zone then shuffle abit forwards & towards their respective side table edges, the interceptors then shunt down each side edge of the table. Spread out the full 2" with the interceptors in a large circle about 15" from each side table edge, then quake away. Daemon army auto-loses if all three psychic tests are passed as they now have a tiny little bubble in the middle of the table to aim at. (any kind of scatter is into a quake zone)

My friends & I spent a couple hours playing around with it and figuring it all out and we came to the same conclusion in the end; Ward is too dumb to tell the difference between 40k & Fantasy Daemons and nerfed the wrong game!
Warp Quake is ing broken as gak and should never have been allowed under its current rules, let alone as a 'free' psychic power on 2 different squads!

DarknessEternal wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:
Where GK's get to ignore shaken/stunned results 11/12 times for 5pts, other armies pay a whole lot more for such abilities when available and have them much further restricted in availability.

Yes, and those things are almost never taken because of their cost and lack of impact.

Those other codecies weren't available to be rewritten, this one was.

And for 5pts it's absurdly undercosted. The only problem with Daemonic Possession in say, C:CSM, was the reduction to BS3. People would happily pay 20pts for it if it didn't reduce BS to 3 on relevant vehicles. It comes standard on all GK vehicles for 5pts, if other armies could take it for 5 or even 10pts, it'd be on anything and everything with an AV value every single time, and if it wasn't an automatically included upgrade it would be taken for 5pts every single time in a GK list too. There's no way 5pts is a fair value to pay for flat out ignoring shaken/stunned results (1/3 penetrating hits, 2/3 glancing hits) ~92% of the time, nor is it something that should just be included on everything. Both access and cost is out of whack on that ability, as well as Psybolts.

Dok wrote:You cannot disregard AV though. More weapons will have an effect on a dread, causing more needs to test. Only S7 and above can have any effect on necron vehicles. And if they are shooting their S7 at your vehicles, you should be super happy, because you will most likely ignore the result and you have no chance to lose your quantum shielding.

The AV has nothing to do with the rules themselves though when you compare Living Metal as a rule versus Fortitude. Both armies have AV 11 vehicles without quantum shielding, so comparing an AV11 nightscythe trying to just save itself (and no turboboost) with Living Metal to an AV11 rhino is much more of a level playing field to compare the rules.

Comparing a Doomsday Ark or a Command Barge to a Dread makes no sense as they are not comparable units. I guess you could draw a comparison between a Stalker and a Dread but even then it's iffy at best. Your argument is akin to me saying a SM Landraider with Extra Armor is better than a GK Dread with Fortitude. You're drawing in additional factors and evaluating the rules on top of that, not comparing the two rules to each other in isolation.

Target wrote:In a game with 2 moderately skilled or above players, psyfles should not typically have a situation occur that involves them being able to charge something like crushers or DCA's.

This is pretty unrealistic. You never know what's going to happen in a game. Those DCAs could get lucky/unlucky and end up wiping out their opponents a turn too early or late. Now if you've got a Dread sitting nearby you can tie up an incredibly dangerous unit which will let the rest of your army focus on other targets and then come and clean out the assassins whenever they care to get around to it.

It's a pretty big bonus and I routinely see good players setting up their Dreads (GK and otherwise) for "tarpits of opportunity".

ShumaGorath wrote:

Blood Lord Soldado wrote:It would probably be best to keep Mephiston at range where he can use his plasma pistol efficiently!

That was sarcasm in-case the internet failed to deliver it properly.

Yes, mephiston is much better up close where he dies to one force weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Psychic defense is more important for preventing hammerhand spam and shrouding than it is rushing a librarian to the middle of the table (where it will then die) to prevent his dreads which are hugging the edge from ignoring shaken results half the time. You're overstating both the effectiveness and commonality of psychic defense against fortitude. It will rarely happen for many armies who can't project psychic defense across the table very well. Amusingly, the best armies to prevent it are wolves and other GKs.

If you've rushed up your psychic defense than they don't really need to have the psyfles ranging you anymore since you just delivered your HQ to the grinder.

I didn't say anything about rushing, but BA, GK, SW, and 'nids to a certain extent are all advancing their psychic defense to mid-field most games. Even C:SM if they are playing terminators. Eldar and DA cover the whole board, but they are less relevant to a tournament discussion.

Nids defense is 12 inches. Thats well more than midfield. GKs are GKs, wolves are wolves, BAs lose to GKs almost automatically anyway and don't have much to shake the tanks with regardless. The meta favors fortitude a lot. Also, given that this tourney had literally zero nids in it and plenty of DEs i'd say that they're more relevant.

I believe most nids with Shadows have some ability to come in behind the front lines, no? I'm not an expert on nids by any means, but they come up in the conversation. That's the only reason I brought them up. However, I am fairly competent with BA and I have not lost to GK once with them. I know that's anecdotal and not really relevant to the discussion, but saying BA auto-loses is misinformed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgendonner wrote:
The AV has nothing to do with the rules themselves though when you compare Living Metal as a rule versus Fortitude. Both armies have AV 11 vehicles without quantum shielding, so comparing an AV11 nightscythe trying to just save itself (and no turboboost) with Living Metal to an AV11 rhino is much more of a level playing field to compare the rules.

Comparing a Doomsday Ark or a Command Barge to a Dread makes no sense as they are not comparable units. I guess you could draw a comparison between a Stalker and a Dread but even then it's iffy at best. Your argument is akin to me saying a SM Landraider with Extra Armor is better than a GK Dread with Fortitude. You're drawing in additional factors and evaluating the rules on top of that, not comparing the two rules to each other in isolation.

The AV has to do with comparing how effective one ability is to the other. They are very similar. That is why they are being compared. I believe annihilation barges were what was originally brought up. (not by me, I might add) Sure, if you compare those, they are both more likely to die then to ever use their special rules. That's not a very good comparison as the more AV a target has, the more the rule will come into effect.

Neither of the rules exist in a vacuum. Why wouldn't you compare them on comparable platforms?

Nids have a Trygon Prime that can deep strike (usually don't), Shrikes that can deep strike (usually not taken), flyrant that can deep strike (usually a bad idea) or could outflank a unit of Warriors or a Tervigon if you take a Tyrant with Hive Commander.

You could also pod in some zoans.

I wouldnt call that "most" really.

rigeld2 wrote:Nids have a Trygon Prime that can deep strike (usually don't), Shrikes that can deep strike (usually not taken), flyrant that can deep strike (usually a bad idea) or could outflank a unit of Warriors or a Tervigon if you take a Tyrant with Hive Commander.

You could also pod in some zoans.

I wouldnt call that "most" really.

And all it takes is one Strike squad back there with Warp Quake to make it a REALLY bad idea.

I was helping to run the Gladiator this weekend. One tyranid player brought a Hierophant. It died in game 2...because Psychotrope grenades made it kill itself. *sigh*

I haven't read this entire thread, and won't, but I will toss in my two cents.

Grey Knights are a crutch army, IMO. They require little skill to be good with.

They also make the game less fun, and that is a cardinal sin of game design.

Reecius wrote:

They also make the game less fun, and that is a cardinal sin of game design.

To be fair, that's true of the quality of GW rules writing in general.

Any game where I play for 3 hours and 1/2 or more of those are spent discussing or arguing unclear rules is anything but fun.

Guess that's why I pretty much stopped playing 40K, though.

You must have had some bad opponents. I rarely spend more than 5 minutes a game discussing rules.

GW rules are awful, true.

I meant that the things Grey Knights do make the game less fun.

Warp Quake isn't fun, neither are any of the stupid magical grenades, nor is cleansing flame, etc. They're just bad rules design, bad ideas and unfun.

I side with Reecius. Certian things are not fun, as they greatly unbalance the gk in some matchups. As mentioned, warpquake can auto-beat daemons. Purifiers can auto-beat hordes. Grenades can break any combat they are in. Fortitude is several magnitudes better than extra armor, comes automatically, and the GK only pay a 5 point premium. Same with the super force weapons, and deathcult statline.

Heres my 700th post on this forum, and Im honestly sad that this thread has gone on so long. I think that a lot of aspects of gk are very good, and some are just dumb. Batman belt nades and death cults come to mind, and I think halberds should be I6 only on the first round of an assault. I do think gk winning 1 GT is not evidence of them being broken though.

However, what really bothers me is how much people care to whine about these things. When I was younger, and gaming was basically all I did hobby wise, I used to wonder why less people were involved. Now that I am older, and 40k has become something I play maybe 2 games of a month, I dont. I have moved out into the world, my social network has gone from only gamers to gamers being a very small minority, and looking back its things like that thread that make me realize how dysfunctional the community really is. And I dont wonder why more people arent involved anymore, because its full of people who dont have anything better to do than sit around and complain about how army x beats army y.

You have the time in your life to go out and spend hours and hours playing with plastic toy soldiers. Why not just enjoy that? Remember when ig and the 'leafblower' were the big thing, and everyone threw a gak fit about how imba ig were? I remember this forum blowing up about how so many people brought them to adepticon, and how darkwynn quit playing that build because people spread their butthurt to him about it. Now though, nobody cares about ig, and its gk that are broken. Give it another year, and we will have some other army that will be bitched about endlessly. Why? Its just the cycle, I enjoy it, new armies provide new challenges and require different tactics to beat. So the game is an ever changing problem, and not a simple equation.

Its this nerd rage from people who spend hundreds of dollars to go play 40k in some other part of the country, and then come back and complain cause they lost to what they feel is a broken army. This attitude is what keeps people away from gaming. You have the time and money to go play with plastic toys for a weekend in some far away city, what are you complaining about?

Reecius wrote:Grey Knights are a crutch army, IMO. They require little skill to be good with.

Way to insult every GK player out there.

GKs are pretty much in line, power-wise with the rest of the modern codexes. By no means are they a crutch any more than playing IG, SW, BA, or even Necrons, Orks, and DE.

Your nuts Helium How do you even think BA are even close to as good as GK. I can think of at least 4 different units in the GK codex that wipe the floor with the best BA has to offer.

question


So isn't there bound to be a strongest army no matter what? And doesn't it make sense that the army that is actually supposed to be the strongest actually is the strongest?

The fun thing about wargaming is having the underdog smash the unbeatable army

helium42 wrote:

Reecius wrote:Grey Knights are a crutch army, IMO. They require little skill to be good with.

Way to insult every GK player out there.

GKs are pretty much in line, power-wise with the rest of the modern codexes. By no means are they a crutch any more than playing IG, SW, BA, or even Necrons, Orks, and DE.

Ill add to this too. I am by no means a great player, I dont really consider myself good even. I am tearing up my local tournament scene with my grey knights, having 20 wins and 1 loss over 7 tournaments. that loss was my fault for being frustrated by the terrain more than anything. I also though, at one point in my life, would play 10 games or so a week, actively research blogs and forums, and play in every tournament I possibly could. So is it the grey knights that are my crutch? I had something like a 19-2 record with my mechdar in early 5th and was 12-0 with nids. The skill level in this game is very low, and 2 years or so of constant trying to improve can take you light years as far as skill is concerned. I dont view these gk as anything easier to win with than say, my nids or mechdar, they are just something new.

Thats ok though, keep raging on the internet about the grey knights being good, and belittling people for playing them. Keep it classy.

Nerd rage? Maybe you mean that about other people, but I love playing Grey Knights because it feels good to beat them. I rarely lose to them at all, it's just that the army requires little skill to play well. That's not to say that anyone will win a GT with them at all, just that they are overpowered on a point for point basis.

If you disagree that is your right of course, but I will sit down and show you mathematically that it is objectively true. The book is flat out overpowered. That isn't an opinion but a statement of fact.

Whether or not people should learn to live with it or just suck it up, or whatever you are implying is another matter. If your last point was aimed at me personally (or any of the very many people that went to Adepticon and lost to Grey Knights) is a bit of a low blow. I wasn't complaining about Grey Knights because I was knocked out of the finals by them. I came to play them, I brought an army that beats Grey Knights, and the game I lost was the first time I have ever lost to Grey Knights with my Footdar and it was against one of the best players in the country and I barely lost in turn 7, had it won tun 5 and 6.

My point being, I don't at all think they are unbeatable, but unfun. And if you are a casual or competitive gamer doesn't matter. Just like Tri-Falcon Eldar and Nidzilla were unfun to play last edition, now it is Grey Knights that have combinations that provide a game that simply isn't enjoyable.

Nerd rage?

yes, nerd rage, such as

Maybe you mean that about other people, but I love playing Grey Knights because it feels good to beat them. I rarely lose to them at all, it's just that the army requires little skill to play well

I dont really care what armies I beat or lose to. Maybe the player, but person x running grey knights is just as fun or unfun as when they are running guard or demons or orks or whatever.

Shouldnt the fact that you are playing warhammer be fun enough? And if it isnt, why are you playing? My opponent is 100% of the fun for me, long as they dont play super super slow and have basic social skills itll be a fun game.

I want to know what exactly makes playing against gk un-enjoyable? Why does it feel good to beat them particularly?

Reecius wrote:Nerd rage? Maybe you mean that about other people, but I love playing Grey Knights because it feels good to beat them. I rarely lose to them at all, it's just that the army requires little skill to play well. That's not to say that anyone will win a GT with them at all, just that they are overpowered on a point for point basis.

If you disagree that is your right of course, but I will sit down and show you mathematically that it is objectively true. The book is flat out overpowered. That isn't an opinion but a statement of fact.

Whether or not people should learn to live with it or just suck it up, or whatever you are implying is another matter. If your last point was aimed at me personally (or any of the very many people that went to Adepticon and lost to Grey Knights) is a bit of a low blow. I wasn't complaining about Grey Knights because I was knocked out of the finals by them. I came to play them, I brought an army that beats Grey Knights, and the game I lost was the first time I have ever lost to Grey Knights with my Footdar and it was against one of the best players in the country and I barely lost in turn 7, had it won tun 5 and 6.

My point being, I don't at all think they are unbeatable, but unfun. And if you are a casual or competitive gamer doesn't matter. Just like Tri-Falcon Eldar and Nidzilla were unfun to play last edition, now it is Grey Knights that have combinations that provide a game that simply isn't enjoyable.

QFT! Not saying good players dont play them but I have played some grey knight players in later rounds of a lot of tournaments and wondered how they made it that far as there tactics were questionable. The army itself made the games I had with them closer then they should of been.

When playing against a grey knight player I am playing against both the player and the codex. The army is the most forgiving army I have ever seen played. It can and has been leaned on by some players. Others those top players could win without them but it is logical to take the army that gives you the best chance of winning. Especially if your playing at the high competitive level.




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Eidolon wrote:

Nerd rage?

yes, nerd rage, such as

Maybe you mean that about other people, but I love playing Grey Knights because it feels good to beat them. I rarely lose to them at all, it's just that the army requires little skill to play well

I dont really care what armies I beat or lose to. Maybe the player, but person x running grey knights is just as fun or unfun as when they are running guard or demons or orks or whatever.

Shouldnt the fact that you are playing warhammer be fun enough? And if it isnt, why are you playing? My opponent is 100% of the fun for me, long as they dont play super super slow and have basic social skills itll be a fun game.

I want to know what exactly makes playing against gk un-enjoyable? Why does it feel good to beat them particularly?

Ill take a shot at this.

1. Everybody and there mother is playing the army. It sucks to show up to a tournament and play against not only the same army but likely the same build 3 games in a row.
2. My last post states it. The army is the most forgiving army in the game and can be and is used as a crutch for some players.
3. It feels good to topple the top armies. I could show up and destroy a nid player in a tournament or a tau player for that matter. That is just how the curve works. If someone brings out GK along with one of those power house builds and you can knock them down with SoB, Daemons, CSM, or IG. It is a little more rewarding at least for me it is.

You should quit it with the attack here on him and just continue the debate side.