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Tomb King wrote:

You should quit it with the attack here on him and just continue the debate side.

Im not going after anyone here. I am however, going after the nerd raging and QQ about grey knights, and dont have an issue arguing points made about that.

Janthkin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Nids have a Trygon Prime that can deep strike (usually don't), Shrikes that can deep strike (usually not taken), flyrant that can deep strike (usually a bad idea) or could outflank a unit of Warriors or a Tervigon if you take a Tyrant with Hive Commander.

You could also pod in some zoans.

I wouldnt call that "most" really.

And all it takes is one Strike squad back there with Warp Quake to make it a REALLY bad idea.

I was helping to run the Gladiator this weekend. One tyranid player brought a Hierophant. It died in game 2...because Psychotrope grenades made it kill itself. *sigh*

So a 15pt piece of wargear killed a 1000pt biotitan? Yeah GK aren't broken.

@Eidolon

I wasn't raging at all, just stating some facts and opinions. You are free to think what you want, though. I don't care either way.

If anyone is getting defensive though, it would seem that you are. Maybe I am perceiving that incorrectly, but you certainly seem to be taking the more aggressive stance.

Just playing 40K is fun typically, but often against Grey Knights it isn't because some of what they do changes the game so much, and not for the better.

But whatever, it sounds like you disagree with me, so I will let it drop. I don't have a dog in this fight anyway, and will continue to enjoy kicking the crap out of Grey Knights whenever I get the opportunity to do so =)

Tomb King's Demolisher will continue to smash Paladins into dust, too!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darth Diggler

hahaha, right? I am sure the Bio-Titan player was just having a great time during that game! hahaha

Dont batman nades have to reroll results of 6 against units of 1?

DarthDiggler wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Nids have a Trygon Prime that can deep strike (usually don't), Shrikes that can deep strike (usually not taken), flyrant that can deep strike (usually a bad idea) or could outflank a unit of Warriors or a Tervigon if you take a Tyrant with Hive Commander.

You could also pod in some zoans.

I wouldnt call that "most" really.

And all it takes is one Strike squad back there with Warp Quake to make it a REALLY bad idea.

I was helping to run the Gladiator this weekend. One tyranid player brought a Hierophant. It died in game 2...because Psychotrope grenades made it kill itself. *sigh*

So a 15pt piece of wargear killed a 1000pt biotitan? Yeah GK aren't broken.

Where were you last weekend?

Eidolon wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

You should quit it with the attack here on him and just continue the debate side.

Im not going after anyone here. I am however, going after the nerd raging and QQ about grey knights, and dont have an issue arguing points made about that.

So in other words, I have no real right to at least be p ed-off that a GK army auto-wipes me by winning the first turn and then passing a few psychic tests?! Does my opponent smiling and saying 'good game' make-up for the fact I didn't get to put a single fething model on the table?!

There's a real reason us Daemon players are still butt-hurt every time we see GK's. Games vs them are not fun in the least, and yes, if we can pull out a win, it's cause for massive celebration because we've beaten the greatest of odds.

I think thats more of a sporting issue than anything else. I would never cast warp quake against demons or ba jumpers, that power is fething stupid against those armies.

Again though, im not trying to say that gk dont have some really slowed things they can do, just, why care?

Eidolon wrote:I think thats more of a sporting issue than anything else. I would never cast warp quake against demons or ba jumpers, that power is fething stupid against those armies.

Again though, im not trying to say that gk dont have some really slowed things they can do, just, why care?

Dude, that was the worst argument ever. Hahahaha

Blackmoor wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Nids have a Trygon Prime that can deep strike (usually don't), Shrikes that can deep strike (usually not taken), flyrant that can deep strike (usually a bad idea) or could outflank a unit of Warriors or a Tervigon if you take a Tyrant with Hive Commander.

You could also pod in some zoans.

I wouldnt call that "most" really.

And all it takes is one Strike squad back there with Warp Quake to make it a REALLY bad idea.

I was helping to run the Gladiator this weekend. One tyranid player brought a Hierophant. It died in game 2...because Psychotrope grenades made it kill itself. *sigh*

So a 15pt piece of wargear killed a 1000pt biotitan? Yeah GK aren't broken.

Where were you last weekend?

I coach high school baseball and we always have weekend games in the Spring. A few years back I took the weekend off and played one last time at Adepticon, but my replacement got the game times screwed up and my team didn't show up for their own home game. I still hear about that one to this day so I'm afraid to try and take the weekend off again.

LValx wrote:

-666- wrote:Long Fangs have their advantages over psyflemen. The psyflemen are better but not by much. Fortitude, twin linked and move+shoot give the dread a slight edge. With two attacks apiece and counter charge Long Fangs are better at repelling an enemy charge.

They have more offensive capability in CC. The dread has more protection, many troops in the game cannot kill a dread. Ever. I'll take the tarpit over a few flimsy attacks. Having used both support options quite frequently I can say with confidence that I find the dread superior. I will agree that for certain things fangs are superior. The ability to not be one-shotted is great. However, they do have leadership (which is always devastating when they fail). The split-fire ability really isn't nearly as useful as people make it out to be. The pack leader always bites the dust first. And against most covered vehicles you'll need 4-5 missile shots to get any results.

Most units that cannot kill a dread in melee cannot kill a pack of Long Fangs either. Seriously who would charge dark eldar Warriors into either?

Eidolon wrote:Its this nerd rage from people who spend hundreds of dollars to go play 40k in some other part of the country, and then come back and complain cause they lost to what they feel is a broken army. This attitude is what keeps people away from gaming. You have the time and money to go play with plastic toys for a weekend in some far away city, what are you complaining about?

I can play this game too! Look, I'm complaining because you're complaining about the people complaining. Now you can complain about me complaining about you complaining about the people complaining. Fun!

Honestly, if you don't have anything to add to the conversation other than, "People should stop whining" why bother posting? Especially when you have a GK avatar.

Personally I could live with GKs if they didn't have Warp Quake and weren't all outfitted with Force Weapons. I find both of those kind of silly.

I believe the three most common GK builds utilize paladins, purifiers, or henchmen, none of which have warp quake.

Everyone is, of course, entitled to complain about GKs as they see fit. It's when they take cheap shots at GK players that compels me to post.

Reecius wrote:
Tomb King's Demolisher will continue to smash Paladins into dust, too!

That is literally why I take the dam thing. Lost to draigo wing once. Never again!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darth Diggler

hahaha, right? I am sure the Bio-Titan player was just having a great time during that game! hahaha

the army (GK) requires little skill to play well.

Claptrap. I find Dark Eldar way, way easier to play with than GK paladins. With GK I have to think well ahead and plan most phases quite carefully -- where exactly to move, whether or not to shoot with the paladins, which psychic powers to cast (which covers two phases and in both player turns), whether or not to multi-assault and in 2/3 games time having to consider the nearness to objectives.

With DE all I really have to think about is my move ment phase and (to a much lesser extent than with GK) target priority. In turn 4 I have to begin to think about objective claiming. It's a damn sight simpler with MSU fast skimmers.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

the army (GK) requires little skill to play well.

Claptrap. I find Dark Eldar way, way easier to play with than GK paladins. With GK I have to think well ahead and plan most phases quite carefully -- where exactly to move, whether or not to shoot with the paladins, which psychic powers to cast (which covers two phases and in both player turns), whether or not to multi-assault and in 2/3 games time having to consider the nearness to objectives.

With DE all I really have to think about is my move ment phase and (to a much lesser extent than with GK) target priority. In turn 4 I have to begin to think about objective claiming. It's a damn sight simpler with MSU fast skimmers.

'

Interesting observation. Dark Eldar is considered one of the harder armies to get down. They have more of a learning curve then other armies.


Also is it easier to use an army with 3 or 4 working parts or one with 20+ working parts. Your brain has to work less to use that draigowing. Its science really and I believe someone did an article on it a while back to explain why we are so drained after tournaments.

Reecius wrote:I haven't read this entire thread, and won't, but I will toss in my two cents.

Grey Knights are a crutch army, IMO. They require little skill to be good with.

They also make the game less fun, and that is a cardinal sin of game design.

Reece I agree 100%

Honestly I came into the game after a long ansence as GK came out. I picked up a Stormraven-paladin list on a friend's recommendation (17 models) because it was relatively cheap and easy to transport. This was when everyone was saying how paladins would be crap because of too few models on the table.

I played with them for about a year, then got a second hand DE army with which I've played about 20 games. The only thing I found hard was remembering to roll for combat drugs (which I still forget) and the movement phase is - to be fair - sometimes quite tricky as one doesn't want to block one's own line of sight. In other respects they're just a hell of a lot easier than the paladins. The only army that I've really struggled against (and interestingly neither player has been especially good) is Necrons who I am yet to beat. I have eight regular opponents who are very solid players, about five more who are decent and I've had a fair few games with my GK against relatively poor opponents, which has boosted their win total a fair bit, you could probably knock 20 wins off to allow for that. In fairness my DE have only played Purifiers, not other GK builds (of whom only the Coteaz build do I really fear).

My experience is that playing paladins is way more draining than playing DE. I've not really felty mentally tired after any DE game, whereas I've been fairly whacked after a good number of games with my GK.

People who dont play GK, "they are overpowered".

People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex"

Also is it easier to use an army with 3 or 4 working parts or one with 20+ working parts. Your brain has to work less to use that draigowing. Its science really and I believe someone did an article on it a while back to explain why we are so drained after tournaments.

I don't buy that. In my experience, I have to more carefully consider every move I make with my Draigowing than when playing orks or necrons where I have many more units. Every move counts when you only have three units, and if one mistake is made, it can cost you the game.

Smitty0305 wrote:People who dont play GK, "they are overpowered".

People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex"

Although I think GK are overpowered I cannont 100% agree with you on this statement. They still take skill to win with otherwise they would be an auto win upon completion of deployment. They might take less to do well with them but those elite players can take them all the way. Would those 8 that played in the finals at adepticon made it with other codex's... I would say perhaps at least 4 of them likely could of made it with a different codex but that is just an opinion and cant be tested unless all 8 run a different dex next year.

[quote[]People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex

DarthDiggler wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Nids have a Trygon Prime that can deep strike (usually don't), Shrikes that can deep strike (usually not taken), flyrant that can deep strike (usually a bad idea) or could outflank a unit of Warriors or a Tervigon if you take a Tyrant with Hive Commander.

You could also pod in some zoans.

I wouldnt call that "most" really.

And all it takes is one Strike squad back there with Warp Quake to make it a REALLY bad idea.

I was helping to run the Gladiator this weekend. One tyranid player brought a Hierophant. It died in game 2...because Psychotrope grenades made it kill itself. *sigh*

So a 15pt piece of wargear killed a 1000pt biotitan? Yeah GK aren't broken.

Umm... That GK player cheated and the Nid player should be familiar with the rules or asked to see the rules when a 15 pt piece of wargear was going to kill his awesome creature. Against units composed of a single model psykotroke results of a 6 must be re-rolled. Someone didn't bother reading the GK codex entry all the way to the end.

So no, that has no bearing on how OP they are because it was a stupid oversight by both players.

Tomb King wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

the army (GK) requires little skill to play well.

Claptrap. I find Dark Eldar way, way easier to play with than GK paladins. With GK I have to think well ahead and plan most phases quite carefully -- where exactly to move, whether or not to shoot with the paladins, which psychic powers to cast (which covers two phases and in both player turns), whether or not to multi-assault and in 2/3 games time having to consider the nearness to objectives.

With DE all I really have to think about is my move ment phase and (to a much lesser extent than with GK) target priority. In turn 4 I have to begin to think about objective claiming. It's a damn sight simpler with MSU fast skimmers.

'

Interesting observation. Dark Eldar is considered one of the harder armies to get down. They have more of a learning curve then other armies.


Also is it easier to use an army with 3 or 4 working parts or one with 20+ working parts. Your brain has to work less to use that draigowing. Its science really and I believe someone did an article on it a while back to explain why we are so drained after tournaments.

I agree that it's an interesting observation. It's also incredibly misleading, because he's comparing Draigowing, a single list that's been noted to be harder to use than other GK lists, to the whole DE codex.

Here's the awesome thing about the GK codex though:

I just wrote up a list including all of our characters from our Dark Heresy Ascension campaign, and it comes out to 750 points.

Our group:
2x Magos, Vindicare Assassin, Desperado (who is fond of hallucination grenades and actually uses a Scythian Venom Talon), and of course an Inquisitor. Magi have varying size Servitor (3 and 4) retinues.

Our 40k army:
2x Techmarines, Vindicare Assassin, Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with grenades and Scythian Venom Talon, and Inquisitor Coteaz. Troops are 3x Servitors, one Plasma Cannon and 4x Servitors, 2x Plasma Cannon.

Comes out to 715 points

I'm sorry, but playing a pure paladin Drego army dose not mean GK are difficult to play. It is more difficult than most GK lists, and playing less than pure Drego wing changes things completly, balanceing out the lack of models on the table etc.

Drego wing is, from my expirince, much the same level as most forces to play. I.E less powerfull than most GK forces. It leave glareing holes to exploit in terms of numbers, but take out a few paladins and replace them with strike squads and you have something that plugs that gap.

You can't say they are not overpowerd because some builds people use are harder to play. I could take a force full of Grots and looted waggons. It would be very difficult to play, but dose not meen that the Ork codex is bad, just that i have not built a well balanced force from what I have.

Also, a bad play with a good dex will always be bad. A good player with a bad dex will be able to do something. The player dose not change how good the codex is.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:[quote[]People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex

More claptrap. I do just as well with DE as with GK and find it a hell of a lot less work mentally with DE.

Blood and slaughter am i noticing that you play GK stormraven paladins with 55 wins 9 draws and 9 losses which is like you only losing 1 in every 7 games where as 1/5 loss to
win ratio seems more average. but its interesting that everyone who posts their win losses seems to win most of the time. so where are all the losers? maybe those self reported win loss ratio´s arent as trust worthy as we think hmm?

in the end statistics show that 1 in roughly 3 people think GK are the most OP army in the last decade. statistics dont lie. 23 percent of people think they are over powered 23 percent think they´re just a good 5th ed book. 3 percent think they´re just average. 3 percent think they´re not over powered ( no, just no) 11 percent think that this thread should die. and 7 percent like tomb kings. so essentially :

53 percent of people think they´re OP
23 percent of people think they´re above average good
3 percent think they´re average
3 percent think they´re not OP (my my we have a very vocal minority in dakk dakka.)
11 percent hate this thread and want to strangle it to death
7 percent are

any way my self, i think that they are OP. the only army i find that can reliably kill them is crons.when half the guys you shoot to bits fprget that they´re dead and shoot large smoking holes into the place where your head used to be and then do the some in your assult phase or DS in ( if you can) and blow up your dread with its own psycannon and then finish it off with s5 power weapons they cease to be over powered.

In conclusion, maybe this is just going to be that the norm for the codex of the 6th generation is going to be this level of power and the GK are made for 6th. So while GK are over powered atm they may not be in the future. For example other armies may be getting points per unit drops (1 point per grot, wait, thats all ready practically true) and more psyker protection. I belive that with the advent of the chaos legions codex the grey nights aren´t going to be the only high power psyker heavy army. Or if traitor guard are included not the most shooty.

I agree that GKs are unfun, rather than unbeatable.

They have too many qualities (equipment, psychic powers, etc.) that basically cancel out other armies' strengths. That's poor game design, as Reecius points out. It's never fun to play against an opponent who, simply by virtue of the selections he has made before play, basically switches off most of the strengths of your own army, particularly when you know that the same would apply pretty much whatever army you chose.

GKs also have some lists that are ridiculously dull to play against. Any codex that allows an army that works best when it hides in cover for most of the game, just ignoring most of what you can shoot at it, then wanders out to contest on Turn 5, is dull, dull, dull.

LValx wrote:If you advance the dreads behind your vehicle formation they will always have 4+ and they can see over rhinos/razors. .

I don't belive you can pull this off legally, as you have to trail LOS along the barrel, and the barrels of the Psydread has to point up towards the sky to avoid shooting through the Rhino. There was a multi-page thread about this not long ago.

DIDM wrote:So isn't there bound to be a strongest army no matter what? And doesn't it make sense that the army that is actually supposed to be the strongest actually is the strongest?

Yup, that pretty much summons up what Matt Ward said about his infamous Daemons of Chaos that wrecked Fantasy 7th ed, when he was called out on it by a fan on a games convention - Matt said "but they are supposed to be the strongest". Ward design in a nutshell. I wouldn't mind if he did the next Tyranid codex, to hell with the fluff.

N.I.B. wrote:
Yup, that pretty much summons up what Matt Ward said about his infamous Daemons of Chaos that wrecked Fantasy 7th ed, when he was called out on it by a fan on a games convention - Matt said "but they are supposed to be the strongest". Ward design in a nutshell. I wouldn't mind if he did the next Tyranid codex, to hell with the fluff.

He wrote the deamons fantasy book too?

Nemesor wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:[quote[]People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex

More claptrap. I do just as well with DE as with GK and find it a hell of a lot less work mentally with DE.

Blood and slaughter am i noticing that you play GK stormraven paladins with 55 wins 9 draws and 9 losses which is like you only losing 1 in every 7 games where as 1/5 loss to
win ratio seems more average. but its interesting that everyone who posts their win losses seems to win most of the time. so where are all the losers? maybe those self reported win loss ratio´s arent as trust worthy as we think hmm?

in the end statistics show that 1 in roughly 3 people think GK are the most OP army in the last decade. statistics dont lie. 23 percent of people think they are over powered 23 percent think they´re just a good 5th ed book. 3 percent think they´re just average. 3 percent think they´re not over powered ( no, just no) 11 percent think that this thread should die. and 7 percent like tomb kings. so essentially :

53 percent of people think they´re OP
23 percent of people think they´re above average good
3 percent think they´re average
3 percent think they´re not OP (my my we have a very vocal minority in dakk dakka.)
11 percent hate this thread and want to strangle it to death
7 percent are

any way my self, i think that they are OP. the only army i find that can reliably kill them is crons.when half the guys you shoot to bits fprget that they´re dead and shoot large smoking holes into the place where your head used to be and then do the some in your assult phase or DS in ( if you can) and blow up your dread with its own psycannon and then finish it off with s5 power weapons they cease to be over powered.

In conclusion, maybe this is just going to be that the norm for the codex of the 6th generation is going to be this level of power and the GK are made for 6th. So while GK are over powered atm they may not be in the future. For example other armies may be getting points per unit drops (1 point per grot, wait, thats all ready practically true) and more psyker protection. I belive that with the advent of the chaos legions codex the grey nights aren´t going to be the only high power psyker heavy army. Or if traitor guard are included not the most shooty.

Actually, I'm the guy who loses to everyone who posts their win loss ratios. I'm just so damned ashamed of mine, i don't post it.