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Martel732 wrote:
Dante is pretty dope with big ticket units like stormravens and land raiders.

Yeah, my current question is: build the 2nd Stormraven that's been in a box on my shelf for 3+ years, or build 10 more Sanguinary Guard. Both units feel like having only one in the list isn't enough...

Astorath seems like a beast for his point investment.

He was decent before. Too bad DC are still overcosted.

Are we thinking plasma pistols + fists on Sanguinary Guard with a smattering of inferno pistols?

I like something like 6 angelus and 3 infernus atm. I don't want to ever tempt myself on something as expensive as SG. The infernus pistols have helped me nuke something in shooting and the be able to charge a new target. Angelus bolters are cool just because I typically start my SG on the table and so they advance up the board with the 5+++ dude.

Plasma on SG will screw you over. A few inferno is all you need.

I’m bummed that plasma is dropping everywhere but Hellblasters don’t seem to be touched.

Bremon wrote:
Plasma on SG will screw you over. A few inferno is all you need.

I’m bummed that plasma is dropping everywhere but Hellblasters don’t seem to be touched.

hellblasters are really great, especially for BA. I dont think a drop is warranted. I love to run a 10 man squad with a primaris CPT, the relic banner and an apothecary of I have the points. You can even throw in an LT to really make them shine. Its a lot of points, but it's worth it.

Hellblasters are crap. Invulns and minus to hit crush their damage, and their range sucks.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Plasma on SG will screw you over. A few inferno is all you need.

I’m bummed that plasma is dropping everywhere but Hellblasters don’t seem to be touched.

hellblasters are really great, especially for BA. I dont think a drop is warranted. I love to run a 10 man squad with a primaris CPT, the relic banner and an apothecary of I have the points. You can even throw in an LT to really make them shine. Its a lot of points, but it's worth it.

It really isn’t. That’s a quarter of your list for 10 plasma shots at long range, and 10 at short range since at least half of them will be dead by the time you’re within 15”.

Plasma cannon devastators were better than Hellblasters before and that certainly continues to be the case now that mini marine plasma is cheaper. Plus they have ablative wounds. Hellblasters are a perfect target for enemy shooting, just like aggressors. Soft, expensive, and they give up firepower efficiency in direct proportion to the casualties they take.

Intercessors are still the only Primaris worth a damn until we get better transports for them (why can’t they ride in other marine transports for gods sake; it’s not like a wave serpent believably holds 12 eldar).

Bremon wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Plasma on SG will screw you over. A few inferno is all you need.

I’m bummed that plasma is dropping everywhere but Hellblasters don’t seem to be touched.

hellblasters are really great, especially for BA. I dont think a drop is warranted. I love to run a 10 man squad with a primaris CPT, the relic banner and an apothecary of I have the points. You can even throw in an LT to really make them shine. Its a lot of points, but it's worth it.

It really isn’t. That’s a quarter of your list for 10 plasma shots at long range, and 10 at short range since at least half of them will be dead by the time you’re within 15”.

Plasma cannon devastators were better than Hellblasters before and that certainly continues to be the case now that mini marine plasma is cheaper. Plus they have ablative wounds. Hellblasters are a perfect target for enemy shooting, just like aggressors. Soft, expensive, and they give up firepower efficiency in direct proportion to the casualties they take.

Intercessors are still the only Primaris worth a damn until we get better transports for them (why can’t they ride in other marine transports for gods sake; it’s not like a wave serpent believably holds 12 eldar).

So there are two things perhaps you are not conisidering:
1) The banner allows the marines who die the possibility to shoot before they go, which means you have the potential for more shots
2) The relic banner makes this unit extremely durable. While it is a massive points investment, the 5+++ keeps those multi wound models alive, which boosts the overall survivability of the army.

I honestly never run the LT, as that wound reroll isn't really worth the points to me, and I only sometimes run the Apothecary. The Primaris Captain, Primaris Ancient, and Hellblasters x 10 was clocking in at 495 previously, which has been reduced a bit. I also tend to drop a unit of intercessors near this blob in order to benefit from the aura's and to draw fire away from the hellblasters. The other beauty with these guys being BA, is that they aren't completely inept should close combat come their way, although that isn't really ideal.

The banner thing never works in my experience. No one cares about your potshots as they are wiping your expensive squad with poor effective range.

My banner is busy on my warlord buffing 8-12 Sanguinary Guard who have a better size, more mobility, and more tools at their disposal. That ancient also has a power fist and a weapon worth shooting, unlike the Primaris ancient. Sanguinary Guard don’t kill themselves. They have more tools at their disposal.

Apothecaries are a waste of points at this point because they’re never going to achieve anything for you that having more models in the first place wouldn’t have done better.

As for the potential for more shots... 50% chance of getting a shot off before they’re eliminated from the game is less preferential to a unit that has disposable bodies that I don’t have to roll dice on. Hellblasters aren’t good, unless you’re playing Dark Imperium and overcharging them to cook Plague Marines.

The only way I would run hellies in a serious game is in a fortification like a bastion, and with dark angel tactics so they can reroll 1’s without a captain.

And that being said I would still probably not run that given a serious game.

Dark Angels Primaris are far more functional than ours. Built in captain rerolls and morale protection so you can run max blobs
of Hellblasters to maximize weapons of the dark age, and the innate captain reroll for static units to buff HB or Aggressors while not worrying about morale nearly as much.

Meanwhile our HB get +1 to wound in combat. “Hell yeah!”. Slightly better on aggressors but still functionally worthless because they’re so fragile and have so few attacks.

Wow! much hate for Hellblaster's. I'm surprised. My bud has 3x7 with UM chapter master, occasionally bobby g, and a relic banner and there's nothing we can throw at it that sticks. It's brutal. To the point where it's rendered any vehicle without T8 and ++ useless.

Anyway.....

With CA2018 upon us I'm taking this time to de-index option my forces and I'm looking for advice on what to do with the 12 Jump vet's that I currently have. With the rumoured drop for VV's I'm thinking that this is the best place for them to go. I have 5 with Mk4 JP's so I would like to do 5 and 7 man unit's of VV. I already have 5 vet's on foot so that base is covered.

I'm looking for suggestion's on equipment in light of new point's before I start chopping.

The 5 man unit all have SS's at the moment and nothing in the other hand's. I'm thinking either a TH or RB(relic blade) for the sarge although I'm tempted to go for 5xTH+SS on the whole squad as I don't own termies anymore. If I go TH, on the sarge, then I think it'll be 2xPS(power sword) and 2xCS(Chainsword) on the other guy's. However If I go with the RB then I'm thinking that 2xPF and 2xCS would probably be best. Any one tried 5xTH+SS VV's?

For the 7 man unit all of their hand's are empty at the moment. I have 5 SS's available but not on them and Ideally I don't want 2 near identical unit's but I will if it's recommended enough. I'm considering maybe 2 or 3 SS's and maybe a TH or PF but I'm also looking at some 2x PP's and/or a couple of guy's with PP+CS to make up for the loss of some drop plasma. Any tip's on PP's in VV's from anyone?

Any idea's, suggestion's or advice is appreciated.

Re: ultramarines; they have access to the chapter master stratagem and better babysitter named characters; our CM buff comes attached to an overpriced (even at 175) character hunter with a jump pack attached who can’t hunt characters as well as a smash captain does.

Re; VV, I would make a pile of double plasma cowboys, sprinkle in some shields, and a couple fists as charge deterrent. Fists are cheap, hammers will be a waste on a unit that’s mostly shooting, and with massed pistols you can accomplish something on the drop without burning CP

Hey all.

I've just started up a Blood Angels army after hitting 10,000pts of Craftworlds.

I wanted my Blood Angels to follow the rule of cool as I'll probably still use my Craftworld/Ynnari in competitive games.

That being said. Sanguinary guard. They seem pretty average but are one of the coolest looking models in all of 40k.

Suggestions on how to run them and characters that support them like the Sanguinor. Tips & Tricks? Please.

SG with PF (and a few inferno pistols), a sang ancient with PF, and the relic standard of sacrifice, he is your warlord. Instead of taking the sanguinor (who isnt worth the points, IMHO) just max your SG. Mephiston (who is worth the points), or any other librarian (with JP), could cast unleash rage on them, for +1 attack. Astorath could use his mass of doom on them.

Yeah that’s basically covered. All power fists; a few inferno pistols in a max squad. SG ancient warlord with relic banner. JP librarian to unleash rage. That’s it. Don’t take plasma. Don’t take swords. For the love of god don’t take axes.

"Wow! much hate for Hellblaster's. I'm surprised. My bud has 3x7 with UM chapter master, occasionally bobby g, and a relic banner and there's nothing we can throw at it that sticks. It's brutal. To the point where it's rendered any vehicle without T8 and ++ useless."

That list loses instantly to Drukhari. Try throwing dissy cannons. They'll stick.

Martel732 wrote:
"Wow! much hate for Hellblaster's. I'm surprised. My bud has 3x7 with UM chapter master, occasionally bobby g, and a relic banner and there's nothing we can throw at it that sticks. It's brutal. To the point where it's rendered any vehicle without T8 and ++ useless."

That list loses instantly to Drukhari. Try throwing dissy cannons. They'll stick.

Many lists will theoretically always "loses instantly" to a specific list or build. Based on that, no one should ever play any of those lists, right?

Can I ask why PF on SG?

-1 to hit. You already get +1 to wound in the first round of combat.

Is it due to the current Knight situation?

Because PF will be dropped to 9 pts on next saturday, cheaper than axe and sword, and its S*2, AP-3, DD3. And with the sang ancient as your warlord your SG will re-roll all failed hit rolls.

 p5freak wrote:
Because PF will be dropped to 9 pts on next saturday, cheaper than axe and sword, and its S*2, AP-3, DD3. And with the sang ancient as your warlord your SG will re-roll all failed hit rolls.

Remember that even re-rolling all failed hits does not allow you to re-roll 3's, as re-rolls happen before modifiers. So 3's are hits until the PF -1 kicks in after a re-roll has occurred.

NexAddo wrote:
Can I ask why PF on SG?

-1 to hit. You already get +1 to wound in the first round of combat.

Is it due to the current Knight situation?

Against T3 swords win. Against T4 it’s the same. T5 and above fists win. Against T8 it’s 3+ vs 5+. Swords are more expensive in a couple days. What are you hunting with SG that’s only T3? What’s T3 that you’re hunting that assault cannons or death company can’t handle for you instead?Fists every time. Swords have a use case against Heretics so you can explode 6s, but you’re still generally better off with fists.

SG are flying vanilla termies with no invuln, and a price discount. They’re not great, but they’re one of the best things we have.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Because PF will be dropped to 9 pts on next saturday, cheaper than axe and sword, and its S*2, AP-3, DD3. And with the sang ancient as your warlord your SG will re-roll all failed hit rolls.

Remember that even re-rolling all failed hits does not allow you to re-roll 3's, as re-rolls happen before modifiers. So 3's are hits until the PF -1 kicks in after a re-roll has occurred.

This is true. 3s are dead. Just like 2s are dead on a smash captain. The re roll system in this game is pretty stupid.

Would a mixture of PFs and swords work for SG? Some flexibility but pfist SGs and a sang priest wounding knights or land raiders on 2s is pretty attractive.

When they were the same cost I preferred to run two squads. Swords hunter heavy infantry and fists hunted tanks and monsters. If there were T8 targets the priest accompanied the fists otherwise he’d follow the swords. Ancient warlord and librarian are more crucial for rerolling 1s to wound, hits, 5+++ and +1 attack.

After CA I really wish SG could take a shield lol. A 3++ for a point less than a trash Angelus sure would be slick.

 p5freak wrote:
SG with PF (and a few inferno pistols), a sang ancient with PF, and the relic standard of sacrifice, he is your warlord. Instead of taking the sanguinor (who isnt worth the points, IMHO) just max your SG. Mephiston (who is worth the points), or any other librarian (with JP), could cast unleash rage on them, for +1 attack. Astorath could use his mass of doom on them.

I am actually tempted to make one of the SG my Warlord. I lose out on the Trait but I think it might be worth it to ensure that the SG are guaranteed full rerolls at all times.

That’s an interesting idea I’ve never thought of before. It’s a shame that we have to compromise that way thanks to “models within 6”” vs “units within 6”” but might be worth testing out regardless!

 mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Wow! much hate for Hellblaster's. I'm surprised. My bud has 3x7 with UM chapter master, occasionally bobby g, and a relic banner and there's nothing we can throw at it that sticks. It's brutal. To the point where it's rendered any vehicle without T8 and ++ useless."

That list loses instantly to Drukhari. Try throwing dissy cannons. They'll stick.

Many lists will theoretically always "loses instantly" to a specific list or build. Based on that, no one should ever play any of those lists, right?

I was providing an example of something that would "stick". That being said, none of the optimal targets for hellblasters are meta threats. So why use them?