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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/30/breaking-previews-and-reveals-from-novagw-homepage-post-1/

 davou wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/08/30/breaking-previews-and-reveals-from-novagw-homepage-post-1/

Legendary stuff!

And lo, did an angel hear our prayers and said unto us: "DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!"

My faith in GW is slowly getting restored. hopefully the rest of the codex hits the mark too.

Damn, unmodified 6's.

There goes my dreams of Gretchins and Dakkajets being beasts.

Still, better than nothing. I'll take it.

Edit: The upcoming Codex: Orks is, quite frankly, the best Orks book ever. If you’re a veteran warboss, this is the book you’ve been waiting for, while if you’ve always been tempted to start a Waaagh! of your own but never quite got round to it, this is your chance.

So the book is either powercreeped to all get, or it's marketing hyperbole. At least they realize they needed to put some work into Orks...

That is standard marketing speech.

Annoyed at being ork specific rule. That's just horribad game design which requires GW to either right away make it universal rule or go and give same rule for every faction that can go to 7+. Which with all the -3 and -4 to hit potentials is quite a few...

Hopefully guns get upgraded enough extra shot rule will amount to much more than much dice rolling for little effect.

It will likely come in Chapter Approved as well, tbh.

The Ork version just lets them take another shot as well.

@Warhead01

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

The very first errata on the Index Xenos 2 FAQ. They changed the Mob rule wording to only affect other Mob Rule mobs. After all, you can't be motivated by some puny Grotz can ya?!

tneva82 wrote:
That is standard marketing speech.

Annoyed at being ork specific rule. That's just horribad game design which requires GW to either right away make it universal rule or go and give same rule for every faction that can go to 7+. Which with all the -3 and -4 to hit potentials is quite a few...

Hopefully guns get upgraded enough extra shot rule will amount to much more than much dice rolling for little effect.

Not saying you're wrong, but can you give a few examples where it's easy and/or common to pull off -3 let alone -4 to hit?

Not saying it's easy(not one word in that post said -3 or -4 is easy. What I said is factions that can go to 7+ or worse with -3 or -4 are many) but there are so factions that can go to 7+ or worse are quite a more than orks. Impossible to hit should not be possible period. Thus unless faction is such that even -4(possible) to hit doesn't mean 7+ to hit faction needs 6 always hits rule. Not many factions that I know that have BS2+ for all guns.

Plus it's not like orks are only ones with BS5+...

Tyel wrote:
If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.

I don't know, I have trouble finding a place to deep strike my 5 Blightlord Terminators in a useful place in my games, I have no idea how I'm supposed to set down 150 gretchin. Really depends on the stratagem's wording I guess.

Maybe it would make sense to just hold multiple of units in reserve and have them deep strike whenever you need an objective.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't know, I have trouble finding a place to deep strike my 5 Blightlord Terminators in a useful place in my games, I have no idea how I'm supposed to set down 150 gretchin. Really depends on the stratagem's wording I guess.
Maybe it would make sense to just hold multiple of units in reserve and have them deep strike whenever you need an objective.

I did wonder that myself, how do you deepstrike 150 models (in 5 groups of 30) within unit cohesion, more than 9" away from the enemy without any of them being more than 12" away? Not saying it's impossible, although it probably is, but that has to be super boring to set up

tneva82 wrote:
Not saying it's easy(not one word in that post said -3 or -4 is easy. What I said is factions that can go to 7+ or worse with -3 or -4 are many) but there are so factions that can go to 7+ or worse are quite a more than orks. Impossible to hit should not be possible period. Thus unless faction is such that even -4(possible) to hit doesn't mean 7+ to hit faction needs 6 always hits rule. Not many factions that I know that have BS2+ for all guns.

Plus it's not like orks are only ones with BS5+...

First off, I agree a natural 6 should always hit, so I'm not arguing that. BS5+ is just quite uncommon for primarily SHOOTING units outside of Orks. Unless I'm forgetting some army. -1 or -2 is easy to pull off but you'll still hit on a 6 with your BS4+ shooting force. -3 and -4 are problematic sure, but I believe it's usually only one or two units in an army that can pull those off. Idk, shoot something else?

That said, seeing how Orks are getting this rule now and there's a precedent in Kill Team, I wouldn't be surprised if it became the norm in CA.

Dakka, Dakka, Dakka didn't need to be unmodified hit rolls. That's pretty lame.

Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dakka, Dakka, Dakka didn't need to be unmodified hit rolls. That's pretty lame.

Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.

You serious? If dakkadakkadakka was on modified rolls you wouldn't hear the end of it from the ork players, and they would be 100% justified!

Look, GW gave us a universal rule to help us against hit penalties that stops working when we get hit penalties!

PiñaColada wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't know, I have trouble finding a place to deep strike my 5 Blightlord Terminators in a useful place in my games, I have no idea how I'm supposed to set down 150 gretchin. Really depends on the stratagem's wording I guess.
Maybe it would make sense to just hold multiple of units in reserve and have them deep strike whenever you need an objective.

I did wonder that myself, how do you deepstrike 150 models (in 5 groups of 30) within unit cohesion, more than 9" away from the enemy without any of them being more than 12" away? Not saying it's impossible, although it probably is, but that has to be super boring to set up

Well you don't have to have them all fit within 12". Sure all won't shoot but grots aren't for killing anyway.

Though still. Da jump 30 of them for 60" wall. That does the job about same anyway and T1 rather than T2. Keep that deep strike for throwing say gorkanaut 9.1" from enemy and then do 3d6" charge

Never playing 40k again until they allow snikrot to bring independent characters with him from the backboard. Extremely unlikely they will ever do that, except maybe unless we get to 15th edition 40k....if snikrot is still around even. But yes...that is what I want for the ork army. No new models, no new rules..just that and that alone. That's it!


oh, I guess the return of Wazdakka Gutsmek and much much MUCH cheaper Biker nobs.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dakka, Dakka, Dakka didn't need to be unmodified hit rolls. That's pretty lame.

Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.

I think it's better, but I mostly face (or at least in half my games) -1 to hit armies, meaning it wouldn't do anything otherwise. At least now we'll always get some benefit from it

tneva82 wrote:

Well you don't have to have them all fit within 12". Sure all won't shoot but grots aren't for killing anyway.

Though still. Da jump 30 of them for 60" wall. That does the job about same anyway and T1 rather than T2. Keep that deep strike for throwing say gorkanaut 9.1" from enemy and then do 3d6" charge

I absolutely get the benefit of doing it. It's a massive amount of models controlling the midfield. I'm just saying that when people were crunching the numbers, looking for how many meqs those 150 grots could kill it was a scenario that was never going to happen.The idea (although probably not 150) is still fun though. Chuck 60 of 'em up there and you can also use the grot shield strat if needed

PiñaColada wrote:
I absolutely get the benefit of doing it. It's a massive amount of models controlling the midfield. I'm just saying that when people were crunching the numbers, looking for how many meqs those 150 grots could kill it was a scenario that was never going to happen.The idea (although probably not 150) is still fun though. Chuck 60 of 'em up there and you can also use the grot shield strat if needed

Thing is that huge wall appears on turn 2. If you go 2nd(orks likely do) opponent has TWO movement phase to move ahead pushing that 9" bubble ahead. Also you don't need 150 grots to do that. 30 grots will do 60" wall nicely _on turn 1_ with da jump. Rest of the grot wall can then advance behind.



(that was 111 grots btw. Not quite 150 but quite a swarm anyway )

Needed no deep strike to start pushing wall. Could have spread more but didn't feel need and keep them on movement trays.

Though 150 might fit but not on same unit so will be casualties across the field. But for DZ I think evil sunz boys(8" charge is actually reasonably reliable...), dreadnought, gorkanaut or killa kan squad(6) will be more likely candinates.

I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...

Spoletta wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dakka, Dakka, Dakka didn't need to be unmodified hit rolls. That's pretty lame.

Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.

You serious? If dakkadakkadakka was on modified rolls you wouldn't hear the end of it from the ork players, and they would be 100% justified!

Look, GW gave us a universal rule to help us against hit penalties that stops working when we get hit penalties!

The rumours were that 5s and 6s always hit, with 6s generating extra attacks....

 Weazel wrote:
I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...

By any chance Turku fanatic? If so we are on same boat! Alas speed freeks comes first :( Could be we both miss tournaments. If it's same tournament release date for codex should be 13th so preorder 6th to go there with orks.

Not sure do I have motivation to go with anything else frankly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Dakka, Dakka, Dakka didn't need to be unmodified hit rolls. That's pretty lame.

Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.

You serious? If dakkadakkadakka was on modified rolls you wouldn't hear the end of it from the ork players, and they would be 100% justified!

Look, GW gave us a universal rule to help us against hit penalties that stops working when we get hit penalties!

The rumours were that 5s and 6s always hit, with 6s generating extra attacks....

No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.

It's either unmodified 6 generates extra shots or modified at which point yes grots would get extra hits on 5+ but any -1 and you wouldn't generate extra shots with boyz

tneva82 wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...

By any chance Turku fanatic? If so we are on same boat! Alas speed freeks comes first :( Could be we both miss tournaments. If it's same tournament release date for codex should be 13th so preorder 6th to go there with orks.

Not sure do I have motivation to go with anything else frankly.

Nah it's a private tournament we run twice a year. Fortunately I have a brand spanking new SW codex so I can always go with them if Orktober doesn't deliver on time.

tneva82 wrote:
No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.

Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.

Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!

Eldars have plenty -2 to hit though. Funny that where that orks hitting on 7+ came from...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weazel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...

By any chance Turku fanatic? If so we are on same boat! Alas speed freeks comes first :( Could be we both miss tournaments. If it's same tournament release date for codex should be 13th so preorder 6th to go there with orks.

Not sure do I have motivation to go with anything else frankly.

Nah it's a private tournament we run twice a year. Fortunately I have a brand spanking new SW codex so I can always go with them if Orktober doesn't deliver on time.

Ah ok. Well either way we are both waiting for orks to come

Not like I would be short of armies. IG, knights, soup, orks with index. It's just I'm feeling less motivated bringing in those. Not big tournament goer anyway and imperial armies don't get my tournament juice going as much as orks and orks I take out this weekend. Think that's enough tournaments with index orks. Want to do more than just spam 250+ models(255 or so this weekend on 1500 pts) to avoid being wiped out in 2-3 turns.

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.

Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!

Eldars have plenty -2 to hit though. Funny that where that orks hitting on 7+ came from...

And IG have plenty of BS3+.......

There have always been two massive problems with negative to hit modifiers and their impact on Ork shooting. The first is that it leads to instances where we can't even attempt to fire at an enemy. This has been fixed with the dakka dakka dakka army-wide rule. The next problem (that has not been addressed) is that a simple -1 to hit cuts all of our shooting in half. Half of your previous hits are now misses. That's a larger relative impact on shooting than on any other faction in the game.

You've said you don't like rolling more dice? You're going to be forced to roll more dice (that will likely make no difference to the outcome) with this rule.

Roughly 5:30 into this video the guy states that he's heard that the Evil Sunz trait is an additional 2" to the move characteristic. Although he does state that it might be a misinterpretation..

Obviously not the strongest rumour but if this is indeed the case then hopefully GW has considered the implications and made it vehicles and bikes only, otherwise Evil Sunz is going to be the go-to green tide trait..

PiñaColada wrote:
Roughly 5:30 into this video the guy states that he's heard that the Evil Sunz trait is an additional 2" to the move characteristic. Although he does state that it might be a misinterpretation..

Obviously not the strongest rumour but if this is indeed the case then hopefully GW has considered the implications and made it vehicles and bikes only, otherwise Evil Sunz is going to be the go-to green tide trait..

Spoiler:

I think it's a misinterpretation of the +1" to movement then +1" to advance = +2". Most Orks advance right?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.

Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!

Eldars have plenty -2 to hit though. Funny that where that orks hitting on 7+ came from...

And IG have plenty of BS3+.......

There have always been two massive problems with negative to hit modifiers and their impact on Ork shooting. The first is that it leads to instances where we can't even attempt to fire at an enemy. This has been fixed with the dakka dakka dakka army-wide rule. The next problem (that has not been addressed) is that a simple -1 to hit cuts all of our shooting in half. Half of your previous hits are now misses. That's a larger relative impact on shooting than on any other faction in the game.

You've said you don't like rolling more dice? You're going to be forced to roll more dice (that will likely make no difference to the outcome) with this rule.

Yes. But having some units on BS3+ is irrelevant if some units are 4+ and go to 7+. 7+ to hit, unless there's some way to actually roll it, shouldn't be possible PERIOD. It doesn't matter if it's one unit from IG that would go to 7+ to hit. It's flat out bad game design to make unit immune to shooting just like that. Unlikely fine, impossible bad.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. But having some units on BS3+ is irrelevant if some units are 4+ and go to 7+. 7+ to hit, unless there's some way to actually roll it, shouldn't be possible PERIOD. It doesn't matter if it's one unit from IG that would go to 7+ to hit. It's flat out bad game design to make unit immune to shooting just like that. Unlikely fine, impossible bad.

Listen, I kind of agree with you but at the same time you're massively overstating the problem.

-3 to hit something is extremely rare compared to -2. Usually it's one unit a turn at max in my experience. Comparing that to the prevalence of -2 to hit, and relative impact before the dakka dakka dakka rule on Ork shooting is somewhat bogus.

I'd wouldn't mind if there was a global rule that 6s always hit, in fact I'd be in full support of it. I don't think it would change any army lists, have a significant impact on the meta or really do much of anything though, so it is in many ways a complete waste of GW's time.

Yeah, I absolutely think it's crap that someone can chuck lightning fast reflexes on a alaitoc hemlock and guard or tau can't even hit it anymore. So always hitting on 6's should be a universal rule, no doubt. But if that's implemented (which it should be) then our dakkadakkadakka buff is pretty tame.

Hence, I'm slightly sad it isn't always hit on 5's (which would still leave some leeway to negatively impact our best shooters)