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Therion wrote:

My chimera spam guard will still be viable.

I'm sorry I haven't laughed this good all day.

I've played mech guard for a long while and I can tell you 90% of my tanks die from penetrating hits without taking more than 1 or 2 glancing hits first.
Not that you should let experience and logical thinking stop you from thinking that GW has broken the game

Joey wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

puree wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:all you have to do is get jammy and then you kill a LR

What's changed there?

6 to penetrate, 6 to kill, you jammy ******.

I'm talking about those S8 Missiles or the Gauss which always glances on a 6, you'd have to get like 9 or 10 glancing hit's to kill a LR if you're lucky because you need to destroy 4 weapons and immobilise it but now it'll be much easier.

Each Krak Missile has a 2/3*1/6 chance of glancing a Land Raider, that's 0.11. To put it another way, if you want to glance a LR to death, you'd need 4/0.11 shots, or 36 shots. Given 4 guys in a LF squad, that's 9 turns of shooting, or 4.5 turns for two squads, assuming no cover whatsoever.
So you can fire two squads of Long Fangs at a Land Raider and blow it up turn 5...if you want to do that, go nuts. I'd rather blow it up turn 2 with melta before its occupants come out and kill me.

Mathammer never works, people use it but it never works that way in games.

Take Fantasy for example, My Skinks shoot at a monster and on average should do 2 wounds from poision, however i've had many times when i get 5 or 6 sixes and kill the monster with ease.

And you respond to the Long Fang scenario, but not the gauss one, another thing to look at is the fact that Necrons don't have melta as common but they can get the job done at a longer range with their gauss fire.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Joey wrote:I'm amazed at how many people apparently glance Land Raiders to death. I've never shot at LRs with anything other than melta, lascannons are a waste.

Play against a Necron army, watch him shoot 2 units of warriors at your LR and immobilise it, then scarabs tear it apart.

It has also happened by my friend simply shooting at them with gauss, he has several warriors squads which just turned it into a box.

Voltaic Staff is assault 4 haywire. The guy holding it costs 25 points. He is in a unit of five Necron Warriors. The whole unit costs 90 points total. They shoot at a Land Raider: Necron Warriors hit 6.6 times and remove 1.1 hull points. Cryptek shoots 4 times and removes 2.2 hull points. There's also 0.44 penetrating hits that might destroy it outright, but on average rolls the Land Raider lost 3.3 hull points to a 90 point unit. With just a tiny margin over average rolls these guys kill it in one volley. They have friends and aren't the only unit in the Necron army. As a second example, 12 Necron Warriors with an attached phaeron cause 4 hull points of damage in one volley. Repeat after me: Tanks are paper.

I'm not feeling the 'well it's OBVIOUS allies won't be allowed in tournaments, duh' sentiment.

Plenty of competitive players are getting excited over it. It'll probably be standard in USA tournaments and gaming groups will follow from there.

Necrons got their 4th ed Gauss back. I started with them in 4th so it's nice to see. Tank armies won't like playing Necrons again.

I like the rumored rule that you can only kill as many people in a squad as you can see. No more killing a 10 man squad because one persons elbow was sticking out behind a corner.

d-usa wrote:I like the rumored rule that you can only kill as many people in a squad as you can see.

And in range as well, it seems.

Thank God for that... 5th Ed casualty removal rules were a joke.

Dice and tape mesure limted edtion? I was told in GW they wasen't going to be? HELP!!!!!!!!!!

The Servo Skull TM looks shocking anyway and i'm not paying for objective markers, i'd rather convert my own as you can make them look better.

d-usa wrote:I like the rumored rule that you can only kill as many people in a squad as you can see. No more killing a 10 man squad because one persons elbow was sticking out behind a corner.

Aye same, with some of my rocky themed terrain, and the larger pieces, it will mean battles are going to much more interesting to play.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Mathammer never works, people use it but it never works that way in games.

Take Fantasy for example, My Skinks shoot at a monster and on average should do 2 wounds from poision, however i've had many times when i get 5 or 6 sixes and kill the monster with ease.

And you respond to the Long Fang scenario, but not the gauss one, another thing to look at is the fact that Necrons don't have melta as common but they can get the job done at a longer range with their gauss fire.

My mech guard will outshoot necrons easily, no matter how easy it is to remove hull points (btw a full unit of necrons rapid firing will only do 2.2 hull points, not enough to kill a chimera).
Also regarding Long Fangs, AP3 is now -1 to damage chart, so all they can really do is glance vehicles to death.

Has anyone mentioned the delay noted by the GW facebook staff, regarding the dice and Tape measure pre-order date?

Can't remember what it said exactly, just that there was some kind of delay. Sadly can't check here at work.

Lots of the supporters of the allies rule are giving examples of team ups in extreme circumstances to defeat a particular enemy, e.g. Tau and Daemons team up to defeat a Tyranid invasion - ok, but in that case they should only ally if they are playing Tyranids right?

I'm late to the discussion, and only just recently back into 40K.

But the bit about fliers being hit on a 6 if going fast, whilst blast no longer having to have the hole over them, does that not mean you fire blast in their direction (they are big models) ignoring the whole 6 to hit thing. Or are fliers immune to blasts?

Fliers may be hard to hit, but they tend to be light armor, how many hull points are they getting?

And how easy are they going to be to actually use. Have to go in reserve, and can only make 1 90 degree single turn at the start of their 18" move makes it sound like you will find it hard to get huge mileage out of them. If you don't go 18" then they probably die fast.

The changes to multiassaults really bone horde close combat armies. And we all know what powerhouses THEY were this edition, right?

Hmmmmmm. Not seeing much good coming out of this edition. Also, if transports can only move 6" before disembarking, what's the point? This is such a blatant "Time to change your armies, folks!" it's not even funny.

As for people getting excited about allies, you do realise you could have done exactly this before in your home games against other fluffy players? Or are you not quite so fluffy as all that, and need GW to tell you you're allowed to?
My group used to do allied games whenever we felt like it, but our basic assumption for having a game was the rulebook. That is why allies will see play, and people dismissing them are being foolish.

Also, a victory condition based on getting the first kill point? Like 40K wasn't biased enough towards "got first turn, gonna win!" already.

Edit: And while the rules for killing units now make more sense (and benefit my army a lot more, to be fair) it's taking a useful abstraction out of the game and replacing it with a very subjective and open to argument method. TLOS is not a lot of fun for a lot of people to play.

Joey wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:
Mathammer never works, people use it but it never works that way in games.

Take Fantasy for example, My Skinks shoot at a monster and on average should do 2 wounds from poision, however i've had many times when i get 5 or 6 sixes and kill the monster with ease.

And you respond to the Long Fang scenario, but not the gauss one, another thing to look at is the fact that Necrons don't have melta as common but they can get the job done at a longer range with their gauss fire.

My mech guard will outshoot necrons easily, no matter how easy it is to remove hull points (btw a full unit of necrons rapid firing will only do 2.2 hull points, not enough to kill a chimera).
Also regarding Long Fangs, AP3 is now -1 to damage chart, so all they can really do is glance vehicles to death.

Some rumours say AP3 is now -1, some say it's 0 and AP2 is +1 and AP1 is +2, i think that adding a -1 makes it unfair on some armies at the same time, take GKs for example who only have Psycannons/Psyriflemen as a reliable long range AT source and who made GW think.

"The Vendetta isn't that good atm, let's make it better" ?

My mech guard will outshoot necrons easily, no matter how easy it is to remove hull points (btw a full unit of necrons rapid firing will only do 2.2 hull points, not enough to kill a chimera).

I'd gladly take on that challenge. You do realise Necron armies in 6th will be nothing but flyers and you hit them on 6's and they can keep evading and evading because the snap fire disadvantage barely affects them? If you don't think you need to revamp your army entirely you need to take a reality check. You're already behind the curve.

AP3 is now -1 to damage chart, so all they can really do is glance vehicles to death.

AP3 is not -1 on the vehicle damage chart. AP1 is +2. AP2 is +1. AP3 and worse is no modifiers at all. In short if you take into account the new damage chart: AP1 was buffed. AP2 stayed the same. AP3, AP4, AP5 and AP6 was nerfed and AP- stayed the same (pen roll of 6 kills).

Joey wrote:
My mech guard will outshoot necrons easily, no matter how easy it is to remove hull points (btw a full unit of necrons rapid firing will only do 2.2 hull points, not enough to kill a chimera).

It's 4.4 actually.
6.6 if they have a Phaeron.

And if it's 4.4, then whatever it is is dead without a single damage table result being rolled.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

"The Vendetta isn't that good atm, let's make it better" ?

I know, and heres me with my second Valkyrie in its box, and a second lot of Vendetta conversion parts that arrived on Friday morning. Might as well throw it in the bin.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And if it's 4.4, then whatever it is is dead without a single damage table result being rolled.

Isn't that a 420+ pt unit shooting at the vehicle? Shouldn't 420pts of anything shooting be able to kill a vehicle half it's cost? Assault the Necrons and they die.

I know, and heres me with my second Valkyrie in its box, and a second lot of Vendetta conversion parts that arrived on Friday morning. Might as well throw it in the bin.

You might want something like six of them especially if the squadron rules were revamped for the better.

DarthDiggler wrote:Isn't that a 420+ pt unit shooting at the vehicle? Shouldn't 420pts of anything shooting be able to kill a vehicle half it's cost? Assault the Necrons and they die.

Full 20 necron warrior unit = 260 pts.

Therion wrote:
You might want something like six of them especially if the squadron rules were revamped for the better.

Hehe, don't tempt me. I'm already one foot in the door of having a fully 'air cav' sub force to my main army, just want carapace guard in plastic first ideally.

DarthDiggler wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:And if it's 4.4, then whatever it is is dead without a single damage table result being rolled.

Isn't that a 420+ pt unit shooting at the vehicle? Shouldn't 420pts of anything shooting be able to kill a vehicle half it's cost? Assault the Necrons and they die.

I already established examples above where 90 points of Necrons autokills a 3 hull point vehicle and almost kills a Land Raider in one volley. If you want to ignore the best anti-tank weapon in the game that only costs 25 points for the whole model for some bizarre reason, you need 18 Necron Warriors to kill a Land Raider in one volley. That costs 234 points. Normally you need atleast twice the amount of points to math hammer kill a target in one volley. 129 points (now you have the Voltaic Staff and 8 Warriors in there) killing 250 points guaranteed in one volley is just absurd. There's a list on the army lists forum with 8 flyers and 10 Voltaic Staffs already I believe Maelstrom would play such an army only to see the faces of every guy who's been stuck in the time machine and still used his 5th edition parking lot army.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

"The Vendetta isn't that good atm, let's make it better" ?

I know, and heres me with my second Valkyrie in its box, and a second lot of Vendetta conversion parts that arrived on Friday morning. Might as well throw it in the bin.

Well as gunships they are better.

But as transports haven't they got worse?

I think the hp are a good idea.
I have been building a sm Imperial fist siege army with two vindicator tanks in it.

my main concern was that a lucky glancing hit would destroy or stop the main weapon from firing, of witch there is only one. Once that weapon is gone the tank is pretty much useless, and not worth shooting at again. at least now one lucky glance will take a hp instead of the main weapon.

I'm not the most knowledgeable 40k player but that just my thought.

Also maybe tank upgrades like extra armour may make tanks more resilient to losing hp.

ChocolateGork wrote:

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

"The Vendetta isn't that good atm, let's make it better" ?

I know, and heres me with my second Valkyrie in its box, and a second lot of Vendetta conversion parts that arrived on Friday morning. Might as well throw it in the bin.

Well as gunships they are better.

But as transports haven't they got worse?

Depends whether objectives are a 3" bubble or if you're in that area no matter how high up in 6E and you can still capture in transports as they can hover or just last turn cature in fly mode and make the enemy hit you on 6s


Automatically Appended Next Post:

prpetros wrote:I think the hp are a good idea.
I have been building a sm Imperial fist siege army with two vindicator tanks in it.

my main concern was that a lucky glancing hit would destroy or stop the main weapon from firing, of witch there is only one. Once that weapon is gone the tank is pretty much useless, and not worth shooting at again. at least now one lucky glance will take a hp instead of the main weapon.

I'm not the most knowledgeable 40k player but that just my thought.

Also maybe tank upgrades like extra armour may make tanks more resilient to losing hp.

I agree, i think maybe they should make it so only Pen hits take off a hull point outright, and if you get a glance then on a 6 on a damage chart you take one off instead.

and if you get a glance then on a 6 on a damage chart you take one off instead.

There is no damage chart for glancing hits anymore. All glances remove a hull point and nothing else.

I know you don't have to but it would help you discuss the new rules if you even read the thread you're replying to. All of this has been said a dozen times or more.

How are the number of Hull points determined? Is there a mathematical way of doing it?
I don't think they would list all of the vehicles in the BRB, as it would have been too difficult to add more vehicles afterwords.

Are fliers immune to blasts? and do blasts still all get the scatter thing? Seems like the way to bypass the need a 6 to hit if you can come with enough blast weapons.