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lord_blackfang wrote:

JB wrote: Seems that a good way to get rid of a zooming flyer is just to drop a Manticore rocket on it. BS1 doesn't matter much when you roll a hit on the scatter die or scatter a bit but end up with 2-3 large templates that might still touch the flyer.

You're kidding yourself if you think you'll be able to fire artillery at airplanes.

In the real world yes, in a coherently designed game yes. I am far from certain that this will be disallowed in 6th though.

JB wrote:Blasts use full strength against vehicles even if the center hole isn't over the vehicle?

And a long fething time coming, thankyouverymuch!

That was one of my first objections in the Trial Vehicle Rules back towards the end of 3rd Ed. I always said that no "centre dot should = can only glance", not the "half strength" malarkey. Half strength meant 'no damage', whereas only glance meant 'some damage'.

I'll be glad to see that back of that pointless rule...

oldone wrote:Hey not sure if any else has pointed this out ( haven't read the whole thread ) but on the youtube trailer from Friday they showed a page from the BRB about vehicles, i had a look and paused it at the 1m20s marks (roughly) and notice a list of vehicles:

fast
flyer
heavy
chariot
hover
opened topped
skimmer
tank
transport
walker

Also noticed that flyers scatter 2d6 when destroyed and use the large blast marker causing S6 AP- to units under templates, also models who where inside must be placed within 3" of the center hole or be removed.
Hope that helps =)

Hadnt seen this. It seems air cavalry wont be as popular and what happens to the occupants of an exploded vehicle?

Templars and Eldar?

---

Helbrecht's vox crackled to life. "Greenskin force inbound," the voice came through. "Threat level alpha. We need reinforcements, sir!" The Astartes' grip on his sword wavered only a fraction, the tip drawing a small drop of blood from his foe's neck. He wasted only a moment in thought, however, and clicked off the vox.

"You're coming with me, witch," he spat with contempt. "Tell your...troops to stand down. You might even survive, if you're lucky."

The farseer was a broken wretch. Her helmet lay to one side, crushed under the feet of the Astartes - it was a fitting symbol of the witch's state. The flat of Helbrecht's sword, its power source turned off, pushed her chin up to force her eyes to his, and without blinking, she nodded once.

Faster than should be possible for a man his size, Helbrecht sheathed his sword and straightened, ordering his remaining Astartes to form up and move, while keeping a small contingent to guard his temporary ally. It was a contemptible move, but he knew the witch would die one way or another - at least this way, fewer of his brethren would see their end today. He turned and joined the Astartes who were advancing between the twisted, ruined buildings, winding through the streets towards the distress call.

"On our way," he spoke into the vox.

Behind him, the farseer gingerly rose to her feet and reached out to the minds of her pitiful few followers.

It has started, my kin. Some may yet even survive to see the task completed.

---

There, done.

- Feel No Pain dropped to 5+

You missed a bit of detail there. It's been dropped to 5+, but the only thing that stops the save now is ID. So power weapons and AP1/2, you still get the save from now.

I really don't have a problem with Eldar working with the Imperium when the time comes. I know it's a cliché, but it's a bit like Elves in fantasy (any fantasy setting really). Humanity and the Elves really don't get along, but when the chips are down they know how to put aside their differences to fight something bigger than they are.

If any one remembers a White Dwarf from many moons ago, back when Codex: Tyranids was released for 2nd Ed, the Battle Report 'Tyranid Attack', where Adi Wood and Ian Pickstock took on Andy Chambers' Tyranid swarm. Ian played Guard (naturally), and Adi took Eldar. It made sense.


Any form of Eldar and Daemons do not make sense. Can you imagine a DE army - petrified of losing their souls to Slaanesh - with an attendant troupe of Harlequins (sworn enemies of Chaos in all its forms - having a group of Daemonettes as part of the same army? feth no!

H.B.M.C. wrote:And how is that functionally different from "best friends forever" style allies?

Going by the rumours so far, can't capture objectives, ride in your transports, or benefit from the commander's buffs.

Can't you see that for some of us doing that is what breaks the fluff?

No, not really. Unless you mean that you don't want to have to fill in any of the gaps yourself, and want the fluff to be 100% handed to you in orderly pieces by GW.


The fluff is just a starting point. Where you take it, and how you fill in the holes, is entirely up to you.

Any confirmation that S8 vs T4 =/= Instant Death?

ChocolateGork wrote:

oldone wrote:Hey not sure if any else has pointed this out ( haven't read the whole thread ) but on the youtube trailer from Friday they showed a page from the BRB about vehicles, i had a look and paused it at the 1m20s marks (roughly) and notice a list of vehicles:

fast
flyer
heavy
chariot
hover
opened topped
skimmer
tank
transport
walker

Also noticed that flyers scatter 2d6 when destroyed and use the large blast marker causing S6 AP- to units under templates, also models who where inside must be placed within 3" of the center hole or be removed.
Hope that helps =)

Hadnt seen this. It seems air cavalry wont be as popular and what happens to the occupants of an exploded vehicle?

Well i can think of 2 vehicles to go with 2 of the new types, chariot and CCB and monolith with heavy ( in its profile already) so it could see some changes for poeple worried about their land raiders ( another vehicle i would think to receive such a status) =)

Anyone know the hull points of the smaller vehicles?

Like Raiders and Land Speeders?

I'm wondering if any vehicles are running around with 1 or 2 hull points. If none are, it makes the whole excitement about 'Dreadnoughts have 3 hull points!!!!!!!!' rather redundant, as so does pretty much everything else...

I can't remember where i read it but i believe storm raven has 2 and i can quite imagine all ork vehicles getting around there =)

I've heard land speeders have 2, at least.

Also, re: ork vehicles, I can see them going the other way and having at least average HP, considering how much of an ork vehicle isn't necessary. Glances would just be shooting off pointless armour plates etc.

I agree with N.I.B. that it's annoying that a rule that won't be allowed at tournaments completely takes over all discussion. I guess it's a polarizing subject. Beer & pretzels people vs the people who care about game balance. So why do the beer and & pretzels people care what is allowed at tournaments since they won't play there and even when they do they always get their ass handed to them, and why do the competitive players care what the others are using in their home games?

Thanks for the summary although all of that has already been known through smaller tidbits. It also once again confirms the fact normal vehicles are much faster to destroy than before because of glances and pens removing wounds and noone having more than four. The only thing in the new rule set I'm particularly worried about is that flyers are too good and I say that as someone who will have atleast 7 in my army list.

Without skyfire they can't be killed efficiently and you know the flyers will destroy every target with skyfire first. Afterall they'll come on turn 2 on a 3+ and fire with everything, and many armies can get re-rolls for reserve rolls or even +1. If you have a squad of Hydras as your only skyfire unit it's like having nothing at all because they'll be destroyed before they ever do anything. What you need is three squads of Hydras and three Vendettas and now you have six units with skyfire to combat the 6+ enemy flyers and still it'll be a matter of who gets to fire at the other guy's flying stuff first. Now, can all armies say the same and have 6 seriously points effective units with skyfire? This same thing applies to the single fortification slot. What good do you think a 225 point Bastion with one Icarus lascannon will do against 1200 points of Necron flyers? Buildings can be destroyed too.

Now what about armies with zero units with skyfire, like standard pattern Space Wolves? Maybe everyone has access to something but even then it probably won't be nearly enough unless you go all out and that's my point. Will the metagame be all about cramming anti-flyer units in your army (flyers themselves qualify as anti-flyer units)? Whoever can get the most of them (Necrons) wins.

Wow, 2 separate people post rundowns of all (or many of) the rules changes, with some very interesting changes to vehicle movement, assault, casualty removal, etc. What do we get?

A couple more pages of people sperging out about the allies system! It's optional. Having the freedom to do something in the rules does not make it mandatory. No one is going to force you to play the BT/Eldar expeditionary force.

If they're so "extreme" how come the rules allow to field anybody as allies in EVERY SINGLE game you play. With these current rules, Eldar can ally with Dark Eldar against other ELDAR. Tau and Space Marines can ally together against other Space Marines. You can take a mixed army of Eldar and Orks to fight against Space Marines. How does this make any sense?

May be you don't play in tournaments a lot, but you've got to understand. All people are going to do is figure out what unit from any other codex makes their army even better, and then field that in every single game. This is what the rules allow them to do.

Since when have WAAC players been concerned with fluff. People into the fluff (as they see it) simply won't take those armies, and if they have ever had a real issue with playing against 'unfluffy' armies have probably avoided tourneys anyway.

What is wrong with seeing tau + marines, seeing special character X every time is pretty darn annoying and 'unfluffy'.

What is less fluffy - Eldar + orks vs marines, or draigo vs draigo!

Any group can and will house rule what is or is not acceptable, that includes tournament players/organisers and 'fluff' players.

It seems that most people think that ground vehicles are hosed in this edition. Full strength blast and ap1 getting +2 on the chart certainly hurt vehicles. However, if vehicles have 3+ hull points then vehicles with high armor may be stronger than before. Glancing them will no longer make them inoperable in one way or another.

spaceelf wrote:It seems that most people think that ground vehicles are hosed in this edition. Full strength blast and ap1 getting +2 on the chart certainly hurt vehicles. However, if vehicles have 3+ hull points then vehicles with high armor may be stronger than before. Glancing them will no longer make them inoperable in one way or another.

Glancing a Land Raider four times destroys it. It's funny how many people still seem to think that hull points are structure points. Hull points are wounds and you die when they go to zero. You lose a hull point each time your tank is glanced or penetrated, in addition to the actual roll on the vehicle damage chart. That's just a bonus way to die.

Therion wrote:

Thanks for the summary although all of that has already been known through smaller tidbits. It also once again confirms the fact normal vehicles are much faster to destroy than before because of glances and pens removing wounds and noone having more than four. The only thing in the new rule set I'm particularly worried about is that flyers are too good and I say that as someone who will have atleast 7 in my army list.

Without skyfire they can't be killed efficiently and you know the flyers will destroy every target with skyfire first. Afterall they'll come on turn 2 on a 3+ and fire with everything, and many armies can get re-rolls for reserve rolls or even +1. If you have a squad of Hydras as your only skyfire unit it's like having nothing at all because they'll be destroyed before they ever do anything. What you need is three squads of Hydras and three Vendettas and now you have six units with skyfire to combat the 6+ enemy flyers and still it'll be a matter of who gets to fire at the other guy's flying stuff first. Now, can all armies say the same and have 6 seriously points effective units with skyfire? This same thing applies to the single fortification slot. What good do you think a 225 point Bastion with one Icarus lascannon will do against 1200 points of Necron flyers? Buildings can be destroyed too.

Now what about armies with zero units with skyfire, like standard pattern Space Wolves? Maybe everyone has access to something but even then it probably won't be nearly enough unless you go all out and that's my point. Will the metagame be all about cramming anti-flyer units in your army (flyers themselves qualify as anti-flyer units)? Whoever can get the most of them (Necrons) wins.

All excellent points as to why allies NEED to be taken in any serious 40k tournament. I couldn't have said it better myself.

We could still be missing some info. Maybe HP regenerate in some way.

Therion wrote:

spaceelf wrote:It seems that most people think that ground vehicles are hosed in this edition. Full strength blast and ap1 getting +2 on the chart certainly hurt vehicles. However, if vehicles have 3+ hull points then vehicles with high armor may be stronger than before. Glancing them will no longer make them inoperable in one way or another.

Glancing a Land Raider four times destroys it.

I'm sorry, but that's such a joke and it just seems unfair, it does give those Long Fang armies a real boost as now they have a much better chance of destroying LR's, and even my psyrifleman dreads get made better and the like. all you have to do is get jammy and then you kill a LR. It also makes it easier for Necrons as they always glance on a 6 with their gauss.

Fire Warriors killing a Rhino by glancing it twice? Yes Please.

oldone wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

oldone wrote:Hey not sure if any else has pointed this out ( haven't read the whole thread ) but on the youtube trailer from Friday they showed a page from the BRB about vehicles, i had a look and paused it at the 1m20s marks (roughly) and notice a list of vehicles:

fast
flyer
heavy
chariot
hover
opened topped
skimmer
tank
transport
walker

Also noticed that flyers scatter 2d6 when destroyed and use the large blast marker causing S6 AP- to units under templates, also models who where inside must be placed within 3" of the center hole or be removed.
Hope that helps =)

Hadnt seen this. It seems air cavalry wont be as popular and what happens to the occupants of an exploded vehicle?

Well i can think of 2 vehicles to go with 2 of the new types, chariot and CCB and monolith with heavy ( in its profile already) so it could see some changes for poeple worried about their land raiders ( another vehicle i would think to receive such a status) =)

Well the chaos demons have actually have chariots. So there is those for chariot. I reckon land raider will probably be heavy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And hover will account for slow skimmers. Like the tau fish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well i would hope that a missile launcher might have skyfire.

It makes sense anyway.

Hoping that Heavy vehicles somehow are more resilient than the rumours would suggest so far, as otherwise Land Raiders are going to be pointless, especially versus Necrons.

All excellent points as to why allies NEED to be taken in any serious 40k tournament.

That's still a possibility but it would be awful games design. It would mean everyone allies with IG and noone else, because everyone needs to patch their army's anti-flyer weakness by taking a squadron of 3 Hydras, a single Vendetta (or squadron) and a Company Command Squad with the Fleet Officer who messes up with the opponent's reserve rolls. The allied contingent would therefore be the same for every single army in the game who can have it.

...and even then it wouldn't be even close to enough for armies with no skyfire in their own codex because a single Vendetta and a single Hydra Squadron won't turn a battle against five Night Scythes and three Doom Scythes.

I'm still hoping that we'll be positively surprised and skyfire and interceptor are special rules that will be accessible to more units than just flyers and Hydras and very expensive fortifications you can only have one of, but nothing in the whole rumour universe currently points to that direction.

Necrons will achieve air superiority in every game except when getting outplayed badly and then the opponent just has to hope for the game to end fast while fighting against the scoring units.

GW will sell a lot of those flyer kits. Orks will use tons of their flyers. IG might even start fielding Vendettas in squadrons instead of singles. Why not have 9 of them?

Wasn't there even a rumour the Craftworld Eldar get their flyer kit later this year in the wave with the Void Raven etc?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:all you have to do is get jammy and then you kill a LR

What's changed there?

6 to penetrate, 6 to kill, you jammy ******.

puree wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:all you have to do is get jammy and then you kill a LR

What's changed there?

6 to penetrate, 6 to kill, you jammy ******.

I'm talking about those S8 Missiles or the Gauss which always glances on a 6, you'd have to get like 9 or 10 glancing hit's to kill a LR if you're lucky because you need to destroy 4 weapons and immobilise it but now it'll be much easier.

I'm amazed at how many people apparently glance Land Raiders to death. I've never shot at LRs with anything other than melta, lascannons are a waste.
Hull Points don't make it easier to kill tanks, they just make it more reliable. My chimera spam guard will still be viable.

My chimera spam guard will still be viable.

I'm sorry I haven't laughed this good all day.

Joey wrote:I'm amazed at how many people apparently glance Land Raiders to death. I've never shot at LRs with anything other than melta, lascannons are a waste.

Play against a Necron army, watch him shoot 2 units of warriors at your LR and immobilise it, then scarabs tear it apart.

It has also happened by my friend simply shooting at them with gauss, he has several warriors squads which just turned it into a box.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

puree wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:all you have to do is get jammy and then you kill a LR

What's changed there?

6 to penetrate, 6 to kill, you jammy ******.

I'm talking about those S8 Missiles or the Gauss which always glances on a 6, you'd have to get like 9 or 10 glancing hit's to kill a LR if you're lucky because you need to destroy 4 weapons and immobilise it but now it'll be much easier.

Each Krak Missile has a 2/3*1/6 chance of glancing a Land Raider, that's 0.11. To put it another way, if you want to glance a LR to death, you'd need 4/0.11 shots, or 36 shots. Given 4 guys in a LF squad, that's 9 turns of shooting, or 4.5 turns for two squads, assuming no cover whatsoever.
So you can fire two squads of Long Fangs at a Land Raider and blow it up turn 5...if you want to do that, go nuts. I'd rather blow it up turn 2 with melta before its occupants come out and kill me.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Hoping that Heavy vehicles somehow are more resilient than the rumours would suggest so far, as otherwise Land Raiders are going to be pointless, especially versus Necrons.

Aye, this is a rule I'd like to see. Ideally it would be glancing hits don't remove hull points.