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Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Virginia

I think the Bolt Shotgun argument might be going in the wrong direction. Not just a pump-action bolt rifle like many seem to think, but possibly a large caliber shotgun round that shoots large high-velocity fragments in a pattern. The layman view of shotguns (ie GW) is that shotguns have a large spread patterns and doesn't need to be aimed (oh yes, they very much do in real life) and so are good close quarters assault weapons. So probably an Assault X with decent strength (5?) and limited AP. Just my off-the-cuff musings.


   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

which would mean you put a rocket propelled grenade in it that explodes

there is no real point using a round, that splits off into multiple small rounds that are rocket propelled

Shotgun is fine, there is an idea in the lore what they should do and this is ok
but putting a bolt round in them just makes no sense
and if this is a very special bullet that can do things other bolt rounds can not, why call it bolt shotgun in the first place

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I was going to say similar, i'd guess the bolt shotgun has many microbolt 'pellets' in each with it's own rocket so you get the extra punch of a bolt round with the spread of a shotgun



 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 kodos wrote:
which would mean you put a rocket propelled grenade in it that explodes

there is no real point using a round, that splits off into multiple small rounds that are rocket propelled


Tell that to Torgue
But yeah, a bolt shot gun doesn't really make sense as the point of a bolt round is to have a projectile weapon that works at long range in space iirc.
This would be redundant with a weapon that's meant to be used in close quarters.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

Bolt Shotguns have been a thing in lore for a long while, they've been rather popular among both Scouts and the Deathwatch. So clearly, there's a good reason to have them.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 kodos wrote:
which would mean you put a rocket propelled grenade in it that explodes

there is no real point using a round, that splits off into multiple small rounds that are rocket propelled

Shotgun is fine, there is an idea in the lore what they should do and this is ok
but putting a bolt round in them just makes no sense
and if this is a very special bullet that can do things other bolt rounds can not, why call it bolt shotgun in the first place

So you are now noticing that 40K tech doesn't make sense?

   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Bolt Shotguns have been a thing in lore for a long while, they've been rather popular among both Scouts and the Deathwatch. So clearly, there's a good reason to have them.


Scout and Deathwatch shotguns don;t fire bolts though, do they? They have a range of other specialist ammo, but are specifically not firing bolts.

In the original Necromunda you could get bolt rounds for shotguns as a poor-mans bolter, but that was as an exception rather than a shotgun specifically designed to fire bolt ammo.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

I have not looked close to 40k tech the last years

but it is not about making sense compared to real world, but being consistent and making sense inside the universe
like having a bolt revolver could make sense with some in-universe thing that makes it better, were in real life a revolver makes no sense at all for military use unless you want some very strong ammo (which falls flat for a bolt revolver as the gun does not care how the strong the rocket is)

and no, having 20 different bolt guns that all look different and therefore having different stats, makes no sense either as it is all about the special bolt round and every difference in stats would come from the bullet not the shape of the weapon

and as far as I know the Scout shotguns never used bolt rounds

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 16:53:41


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





Northumberland

I think the thing is though that really it's an aesthetic choice. The point is that they need something clearly different from an Imperial Boltpistol that evokes power and that looks like it can be handled by a tougher species. It also links to the prospector aspect in the Western movie sense. In film and games, a shotgun and a revolver says grizzled and hard arsed character. It's never about what a gun can do in real life because this isn't real life. It's what the gun says about the wielder and what we as the viewer extrapolate from that.

A bolt revolver says "Imperial" but clearly divergent. And that's the point.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 Flinty wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Bolt Shotguns have been a thing in lore for a long while, they've been rather popular among both Scouts and the Deathwatch. So clearly, there's a good reason to have them.


Scout and Deathwatch shotguns don;t fire bolts though, do they? They have a range of other specialist ammo, but are specifically not firing bolts.

In the original Necromunda you could get bolt rounds for shotguns as a poor-mans bolter, but that was as an exception rather than a shotgun specifically designed to fire bolt ammo.


I believe the Adeptus Arbites could also fire bolter shells from shotguns. But yes, the point very much was that you have a shotgun for all your shotgun needs, but if you really, really need to mess someone up from the inside out, you could load bolter shells. It's an additional function, not the point behind the whole design like the Squat pump action revolver bolt shotgun.

 Olthannon wrote:
I think the thing is though that really it's an aesthetic choice. The point is that they need something clearly different from an Imperial Boltpistol that evokes power and that looks like it can be handled by a tougher species. It also links to the prospector aspect in the Western movie sense. In film and games, a shotgun and a revolver says grizzled and hard arsed character. It's never about what a gun can do in real life because this isn't real life. It's what the gun says about the wielder and what we as the viewer extrapolate from that.

A bolt revolver says "Imperial" but clearly divergent. And that's the point.


I hope the new Squats ride donkeys and wear funny hats. Nothing says prospector like riding a donkey while wearing a funny hat.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Virginia

I guess everyone read "bolt shotgun" and assumed rocket powered bolter shell. I just pictured something like the old 40mm buckshot rounds from Vietnam (but bigger and more better). Even regular bolters have a small charge to get the round out of the barrel before the rocket motor kicks in, so maybe this is similar but less rocket.

Not that it actually has to make sense. Pump action revolver? Kinda removes the point of the pump action. Plus no slug changeovers.


   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

Pump-Action Revolver just makes me think of Nerf guns.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in lb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Platuan4th wrote:
 NephMakes wrote:
Spoiler:

The squat lasgun is mislabelled as an autogun. It's got a standard lasgun muzzle with slanted cowl and power pack with diagonal indented stripe. The design intent is pretty clear. Wierd error to make. For reference: Lexicanum Lasgun and Autogun.


You mean the thing called a HyLAS Auto Rifle? Pretty sure that's not a mislabelling.


It also looks rather similar to the Van Saar lascarbine from Necromunda which
1) is their equivalent of an autogun
2) was also made by a fully operational STC
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

LoV bolters are described as hitting harder, and being more stable than Imperial Bolters. Are we looking at Strength 5, assault 2 bolters?

If that's the case, I kinda hope the Hylas autorifle is an alternate basic weapon. Pure speculation on the stats, but S3, AP 3, assault 4 would be neat.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[Jǫtunn]






.

AP3 seems unlikely for a Basic Weapon?

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Alpharius wrote:
AP3 seems unlikely for a Basic Weapon?

What AP are inferno bolters?

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And still doesn’t mean they understand the science behind what’s being made.


Pretty sure they do, considering the article specifically calls out that they taught the Tau how to make Volkanite/pulse tech work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
AP3 seems unlikely for a Basic Weapon?

What AP are inferno bolters?


-2

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 19:00:37


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Virginia

 cuda1179 wrote:
LoV bolters are described as hitting harder, and being more stable than Imperial Bolters. Are we looking at Strength 5, assault 2 bolters?

If that's the case, I kinda hope the Hylas autorifle is an alternate basic weapon. Pure speculation on the stats, but S3, AP 3, assault 4 would be neat.


With lethality creep and bolters hitting harder, I'm going to go out on a limb and say S4 for their mo-betta las weapons and S5 for their bolt weapons. AP TBD, but -3 isn't outrageous given the hotshot lasguns. As was mentioned previously, Van Saar lasguns do look very similar, so S3 isn't out of the picture yet, but LoV having hotshot lasgun equivalents doesn't seem to fit the theme.

Bit of a side note, but I'd love for Guard to get a las based squad automatic weapon. Something in the Rapid Fire 3, S3, AP0 ballpark, with a big fat old battery pack underneath where the belted bullets would normally go.


   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

KillerAngel wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
LoV bolters are described as hitting harder, and being more stable than Imperial Bolters. Are we looking at Strength 5, assault 2 bolters?

If that's the case, I kinda hope the Hylas autorifle is an alternate basic weapon. Pure speculation on the stats, but S3, AP 3, assault 4 would be neat.


With lethality creep and bolters hitting harder, I'm going to go out on a limb and say S4 for their mo-betta las weapons and S5 for their bolt weapons. AP TBD, but -3 isn't outrageous given the hotshot lasguns. As was mentioned previously, Van Saar lasguns do look very similar, so S3 isn't out of the picture yet, but LoV having hotshot lasgun equivalents doesn't seem to fit the theme.

Bit of a side note, but I'd love for Guard to get a las based squad automatic weapon. Something in the Rapid Fire 3, S3, AP0 ballpark, with a big fat old battery pack underneath where the belted bullets would normally go.



Wouldn't that be a multilaser? It is odd how HWS can't use multilasers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Geifer wrote:


I hope the new Squats ride donkeys and wear funny hats. Nothing says prospector like riding a donkey while wearing a funny hat.

"Donkyns" TM

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 19:34:18


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Virginia

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't that be a multilaser? It is odd how HWS can't use multilasers.

Multilaser is definitely in the heavy weapon category. What I'm thinking is more like a lasgun variant of the M249. So about the same size (tad bigger) as a lasgun, meant for sustained automatic fire. Like a hotshot volley gun, minus the hotshot part, and ideally not Heavy.


   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

KillerAngel wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't that be a multilaser? It is odd how HWS can't use multilasers.

Multilaser is definitely in the heavy weapon category. What I'm thinking is more like a lasgun variant of the M249. So about the same size (tad bigger) as a lasgun, meant for sustained automatic fire. Like a hotshot volley gun, minus the hotshot part, and ideally not Heavy.

Fair enough. That would be useful for IG squads to have.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





If the bolt shotgun fires truly caseless rounds then the revolver mechanism makes a certain amount of sense; the main concerns with caseless guns are: ammunition fragility, flashover, and cookoff. Having a cylinder as an intermediary between the magazine and the breech solves the last two by leaving time for the chambers to cool before being reloaded and physically separating the round being fired from the rest of the stock.
You just have to deal with the other problems of revolver mechanisms as well as all the problems of pump mechanisms too.
So still pretty daft.

Personally I think they just wanted a Pancor Jackhammer and an H&K G11 to have a baby.

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Where has the caseless thing come from?

Also regarding las saws, but here isn’t that much design space between lasguns and heavy Stubbers to fit a squad weapon in.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





 Flinty wrote:
Where has the caseless thing come from?

Also regarding las saws, but here isn’t that much design space between lasguns and heavy Stubbers to fit a squad weapon in.

The original bolt gun descriptions way back.

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







So people keep saying but I have gone through RT, the Compilation and sencond and third edition rule books and can find no mention of it. Do you have a reference?

Linky to my references
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/804784.page#11355325

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 20:44:11


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Rihgu wrote:
They really went and wrote "The squats have better bolters than space marines AND taught the Tau how to make ion weapons" and I'm kind of here for it.


Yep! I'm totally loving it! Need to see these weapons on some infantry!
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Rihgu wrote:
They really went and wrote "The squats have better bolters than space marines AND taught the Tau how to make ion weapons" and I'm kind of here for it.

I didn't. To me it felt really hamfisted, like the Primaris release or that time where they made the Nightbringer the reason why organisms are afraid of death.
The weapon designs seem cool at least, but I don't like how they are imperials +1, oh and they also taught the Tau how to make their guns and don't afraid of anything.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 21:51:06


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Personally, I don't think the Squat weapons seem all that implausible. Definitely not any more so than what passes for normal with Eldar and Necron weapons (or Tyranids, for that matter). Don't really understand why people are fine with a faction whose main weapon "strips apart targets at the molecular level" using magic green death beams, but a bolter shotgun is now a bridge too far.


The weapons look chunky and convey a sense of power, and that's really about as much verisimilitude as I'm looking for in my game about space Catholics, robot Egyptians, and angry fungus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 23:02:36


 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Virginia

 Flinty wrote:

Also regarding las saws, but here isn’t that much design space between lasguns and heavy Stubbers to fit a squad weapon in.

Sure there is. Something with the stats of the lasgun, but better ROF (rapid fire 3?) would help with firepower output (FRFSRF at half range anyone?). Add in an option for a single underbarrel grenade launcher (like for Space Marines) and we're in business.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

As a friend of mine just put it:

"Bolt Shotgun is stupid. Gyrojet does not work like that. Either it is a regular shotgun yeeting out packed shot, or it is just a regular gyrojet slug in which case it is just a bolter."

It also has a cylinder and a pump-action. That... why would you ever do that?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/21 00:02:29


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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