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 techsoldaten wrote:
Honestly, anything they give Eldar is just going to make the army better. I'm more interested in other armies, especially Grey Knights.

The silver lining for you should be that Custom Craftworlds are confimred, which almost assuredly will mean a revamp of the existing CWE traits.
I.e. Alaitoc will get the Raven Guard treatment. No more -2 to hit Flyers without using stratagems

-

 Galef wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Honestly, anything they give Eldar is just going to make the army better. I'm more interested in other armies, especially Grey Knights.

The silver lining for you should be that Custom Craftworlds are confimred, which almost assuredly will mean a revamp of the existing CWE traits.
I.e. Alaitoc will get the Raven Guard treatment. No more -2 to hit Flyers without using stratagems

-

that combined with a points jump come CA will see off dem pointys ears showing up dem Speesh Marines, well till whatever the new Eldar hotness is takes hold

I'd like to see the "Ynnari double shooting/fighting" tax disappear from...ya know, Craftworld units which aren't being used with Ynnari. This soup style penalty/tax is fething obnoxious when you want to play your army, but are penalized because "well, you could buy this other book...and use this other stuff and combine it, so...it could be way better, so you should pay for that.".

Last I checked my six Dark Reapers are still an eye-watering 209 points for seven Toughness 3 wounds. Of course I'm also still paying 7 points for a four-shot lasgun on Swooping Hawks, etc...

 Elbows wrote:
I'd like to see the "Ynnari double shooting/fighting" tax disappear from...ya know, Craftworld units which aren't being used with Ynnari. This soup style penalty/tax is fething obnoxious when you want to play your army, but are penalized because "well, you could buy this other book...and use this other stuff and combine it, so...it could be way better, so you should pay for that.".

Last I checked my six Dark Reapers are still an eye-watering 209 points for seven Toughness 3 wounds. Of course I'm also still paying 7 points for a four-shot lasgun on Swooping Hawks, etc...

I mean, the Ynnari double attack tax should be removed from every unit, because Ynnari can't do that any more. It certainly feels like whoever set the price of the Ynnari HQs didn't get that memo though.

If you mean Yncarne, it is still capable due to teleport ability alone. It packs a better statline and more speed than Avatar, arguably better aura and ability for 2 psychic powers.

Whatever point drop it would get, it won't be terribly big.

If you mean Yncarne, it is still capable due to teleport ability alone. It packs a better statline and more speed than Avatar, arguably better aura and ability for 2 psychic powers.

Whatever point drop it would get, it won't be terribly big.

I think he means Shining Spears & Dark Reapers.

On the Spears I'd be happy for them to get an extra attack instead of a points increase.

Dark Reapers Are good but wouldn't say no to a 10% drop in points.



I wonder if all the PLs are going to get a new ability. What I wouldn't give for Maugan Ra to be able to target characters.

Also what I wouldn't give to have Drastanta be the Phoenix Lord that rises.

Also we are getting a whole new set of Psychic Powers. To me this represents the place for the biggest boost to CWE.

If you want a drop for Dark Reapers, then so should get say Wolf Fangs, who are also same points if they take ML. Which unit is better, how do you think?
Reapers were just horrendously underpriced on Codex release, and they are still in many tournament lists.

Spears are also still good, even though glasscannony. An extra attack would make this most damaging unit in the Codex even... more most damaging.

Spears is a really hard unit to balance I think due to combination of shooting, melee and speed. And ability to run in units of 9 fully buffed by every power at hand.

Hell if there is one unit I wish would get a point drop, it would be Warlocks.

 Burnage wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
I'd like to see the "Ynnari double shooting/fighting" tax disappear from...ya know, Craftworld units which aren't being used with Ynnari. This soup style penalty/tax is fething obnoxious when you want to play your army, but are penalized because "well, you could buy this other book...and use this other stuff and combine it, so...it could be way better, so you should pay for that.".

Last I checked my six Dark Reapers are still an eye-watering 209 points for seven Toughness 3 wounds. Of course I'm also still paying 7 points for a four-shot lasgun on Swooping Hawks, etc...

I mean, the Ynnari double attack tax should be removed from every unit, because Ynnari can't do that any more. It certainly feels like whoever set the price of the Ynnari HQs didn't get that memo though.

Yep, that's my issue. The rules changed, etc...but I'm still paying through the nose for a tax caused by an army I don't play, which is a gak way to try to balance things. Ynnari should have originally had their own points cost in their fake little mini-dex instead of arbitrarily penalizing people who don't use them, etc.

I doubt we'll see corrective points drops, but it'd be nice.

If you want a drop for Dark Reapers, then so should get say Wolf Fangs, who are also same points if they take ML. Which unit is better, how do you think?
Reapers were just horrendously underpriced on Codex release, and they are still in many tournament lists.

Spears and Reapers are not the norm for winning Tournament lists.

Saying that if X gets a points costs then so should Y is a pretty bad argument especially when Y is from one of the least competitive armies out there. To be fair I think Space Wolves need some love but that is a whole different topic.

Spears are good because they are quick, can be a great distraction and hit well. They also die rather easily, rely on Psychic Powers to be effective and got taxed due to Ynnari.

Not a norm where, on what format, in what mission system? Why should that norm be applied to every unit at all?

Spears got taxed because they were priced almost as regular bikes but were better in every way.

I still remember bikes of all types and colors with sometimes literally toothpicks sticked to them. That's your "norm".

NexAddo wrote:

If you mean Yncarne, it is still capable due to teleport ability alone. It packs a better statline and more speed than Avatar, arguably better aura and ability for 2 psychic powers.

Whatever point drop it would get, it won't be terribly big.

I think he means Shining Spears & Dark Reapers.

No, I mean the Ynnari special characters. Yvraine and the Yncarne are fine but neither of them deserve to be the same points that they were when Soulburst caused double actions. I'm hoping for a slight tweak to them in either Phoenix Rising or Chapter Approved.

Visarch is not bad as a bullet sponge for Yvraine. I admit I expected more from someone who looks fancier than Phoenix Lord and is a fighting legend and stuff.

 Burnage wrote:
Yvraine and the Yncarne are fine but neither of them deserve to be the same points that they were when Soulburst caused double actions

Because Soulburst was overpowered as feth, with it they should have costed much, much more than they cost now, or then.

Interesting they went for a box set for the release, evidently this is more about the book. I wonder of this is the template for all the Psychic Awakening books- that would be a lot of box sets in quick succession..
The book sounds interesting- I hope that in the Blood Angels vs Nids they split the content evenly so its not just A bLood Angels story with the NIds in the background as the baddies..

Not a norm where, on what format, in what mission system? Why should that norm be applied to every unit at all?

ITC and ETC formats. Why should that matter? Because it is widely considered the goto tournament formats and the best for unit balancing. Yes there might be this one guy at the FLGS that does quite well with his spears but that is the Outlier

Current Meta for CWE is either Flyers or Mech (Wave Serpents, Night Spinner, Fire prisms) (Not Falcons)

it is widely considered the goto tournament formats

Maybe.
...although, actually, how is a tournament good if it allows degenerate spam lists with flyers win?

best for unit balancing

Don't see how, especially in team on team play with pairings. It's a meta in itself.

Current Meta for CWE is either Flyers

I've read reports from current ETC how Eldar Flyers were crushed by IG and Grey Knights of all things.

or Mech

Mech was always easier to collect and play, there's not a lot of Craftworlds players with 120 Guardians for example.

Also meta exists to be broken. I still remember when people thought jetcouncil was a dumb choice and people told me to burn it.

Like, theoretically, let's say DR get buffed so mech/flyers are replaced by equal points of DR. (like before Ynnari nerf and when they were 27 ppm I think) How is that healthy for the game?

My only comment on reducing their cost was for a 10% reduction. So 34 down to 30-31pts.
To be fair even at 27pts I can't see people taking anymore then 1 squad + a Wave serpent to keep them alive.

They should get cheaper because T3 3+. They die to a stiff breeze unless you invest 140pts for a Wave serpent and 1CP per turn.

At 30pts and a new Psychic Power (Which could change the entire CWE Meta depending on what they are) that works like the SM power that prevents being targeted unless its the closest enemy model and I'd get them out again for competitive games.

You have an even worse case of meta fever though

Not sure what Meta fever is but when I'm off to a tourny I do look at what is the most likely armies I will be coming up against, what is doing well and what is the most efficient units I can take.

Curve balls are thrown when someone brings a list completely out of the blue and they do well which is great and I even enjoy losing to that army. Congrats to anyone that can do that.

so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much

BrianDavion wrote:
so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much

That is ridiculous considering how trash the craftworld side of that box set is.

Come on guys, it took them decade to make these 4 new units, they charge you that price to compensate for all the time wasted.

BrianDavion wrote:
so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much

Usually, GW prices these things at a spot where I'll complain about the price, but still get it. But this is like the third or fourth product that they've released at an absurdly unreasonable price in the past few months - and I don't think I'm the only one who has thought so. Like, they've gone from "*grumble* *grumble* take my money" to "How dare you! Who do you think you are?!"

At this point, I think GW's core audience is people who work at GW, because the only people who would pay that are people with a 50% off employee discount (and even then, it's STILL too expensive!!).

I'd happily take a 50% discount. At least then I'd be paying regular UK retail prices.

BrianDavion wrote:
so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much

Where did this price info come from? It seems to be buried under tournament commentary. I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up as the Sisters box price, but not so much this little thing.


Just for the record, for the curious, current individual prices:
Vyper $35
Falcon $55
{latest character- spiritseer}- $30
{plastic aspect warriors- DA}- $35
Craftworld side- $155

Hellions- $30
Scourge- $30
Venom- $35
{latest character- spiritseer}- $30
{plastic aspect warriors- DA}- $35
Dark Eldar side- $165

Total retail price (assuming banshees, incubi and characters aren't even more ridiculously priced, which is unknown probably for six month)- $320.

Gotta say, if someone buys this just for the new models of one side, they're making a bad purchase.

Assuming those prices is mightily optimistic.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Assuming those prices is mightily optimistic.

Eh. They're a starting point. I don't see the characters going to the Primaris Marine SC levels (currently $40), but yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the new units are $40 rather than $35. Much further and they start getting in the same ballpark as Wraithguard, and then people look at them funny.

Still. $230 (wherever that price came from), seems really gacky for a box that has one really good thing in it (the Venom). Unless the new stuff comes with major rules overhauls, Blood of the Phoenix might as well be called the Second Tier Eldar Gift Box, the present for people you don't really like.

Usually with GW boxes they feel like a value, becuase the price is close to the cost of one side, so everything else at least feels like a bonus. This is just.., blah.

$230 is an absolute laugh, considering there are four small units in that box that people actually want. If these were all new models, or it came with the hard cover book in the box or something it would still be more than most people are going to plunk down for a single box....but a handful of new models with two kits which are literally 20+ years old...and you want to ask $230? That's incredible.

Sadly it'll likely mean sales will not be huge, and GW will think "Huh, guess people won't want plastic Aspects..."

Khahandran wrote:

kingheff wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the falcon is a very good unit. 137 PTS for a flying tank with twelve wounds and basically a triple las cannon that can carry a small squad of infantry is great value. If you want a dedicated transport go for the serpent, it's damage output is pretty poor, it's more expensive but it's tougher and has double the capacity.
A single falcon out damages a fire prism for 20pts less. With the strat prisms shine but only in groups of three.
I do wonder if the people who write it off have ever tried actually using one.

A single Falcon only out damages a Prism if the Prism moves. Shooting against a target with T8 the Prism wins without moving. Makes the box even worse.

Against t7 3+ the falcon wins on average, on t8 3+ the prism wins on average, both assuming the prism double shoots.
Considering the falcon is cheaper, can carry a small squad and works best in a midfield role means it's a perfectly good vehicle that fulfills a different role. And it's certainly not the worst unit in the codex as some hyperbolic person said.

230.00 USD??? Wow..... Was considering this as a gift for one of my buddies. Nope.

I dread the prices of the aspect Warriors when released separately.

The Falcon is definitely underwhelming, but it's more of an issue that it doesn't serve much of a purpose in 8th.

-Penalty when it moves to shoot (can be undone partially with wargear but the tank does NOT need to be more expensive)
-Carries only enough models for characters or small Aspect Warrior squads (and they mostly suck ass right now)
-Being a transport *unless you're just hiding for a turn* the move and shoot penalty is an issue if you want to zip across the board to drop something off - the Wave Serpent is far better at actually moving things and laying down cannon fire.
-Nowhere near as tough as a Wave Serpent which is 7 points more when armed with all shuriken cannons (and carries twice as much)
-Doesn't match the range or fire versatility of the Fire Prism, this is compounded if you have two Fire Prisms since they benefit from the superb stratagem
-Is very outranged by the Fire Prism
-Capacity is too small to carry any Wraith units, which are one of the more useful units to move.
-Isn't a Transport so it doesn't have the versatility of something like a Razorback in army lists
-A Hornet from Forgeworld is about as killy, faster, harder to hit, and much cheaper.

Is it awful? Arguably so when compared to a lot of other things in the game. The problem is it simply doesn't do anything well. I have four modeled up that I could run as Falcons, but it's rare. Even with Ulthwe they don't last long at all.

 Sqorgar wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so the price for blood of the pheonix is 230 bucks USD? LOL and people thought SHADOWSPEAR was too much

Usually, GW prices these things at a spot where I'll complain about the price, but still get it. But this is like the third or fourth product that they've released at an absurdly unreasonable price in the past few months - and I don't think I'm the only one who has thought so. Like, they've gone from "*grumble* *grumble* take my money" to "How dare you! Who do you think you are?!"

At this point, I think GW's core audience is people who work at GW, because the only people who would pay that are people with a 50% off employee discount (and even then, it's STILL too expensive!!).

Well inserting what box has in models and assuming 30$ per infantry box and 25$ per character came to 295$. Even if we assume GW gives 0 value for books etc that's 295$ models for 230$.

How big discount people are expecting GW to give? 22% off plus free books not enough? Say something about unreasonable expectations. Why not ask 90% discount then?

That price is insane for a box bundling ancient kits in.