Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tacobake wrote:

Asmodai wrote:You can elect to be Pinned on your subsequent turn to get a +1 cover save. It's an interesting option.

This seems powerful to me, for when your squad is below half you won't fall back.

Not necessarily. If you read the 4th ed rules carefully, Pinning stops a unit from making Fallback moves, but doesn't automatically Rally them. They'll resume falling back when they come unpinned.

Wow some of those are going back to previous editions.

Fleeing units can cause other units to flee was in previous editions. Did the "rally in cover" rule return? That rule was supposedly dropped because many players 'forgot' it.

The auto scattering blast markers rule: How does one nominate the target before scattering? can one target the ground like in RT days? Does one have to target a particular model? Will lining guys up in a straight line in cover minimize any chances of templates hitting models?

Combat speed rings a bell. Do the vehicles have 3 speeds again?

Wasn't Eternal Warrior described in the most recent Codex: Eldar for the Phoenix Lords?

"Did the "rally in cover" rule return? That rule was supposedly dropped because many players 'forgot' it. "

Yes, being in area terrain gives you +1 leadership when rallying.

"The auto scattering blast markers rule: How does one nominate the target before scattering? can one target the ground like in RT days? Does one have to target a particular model? Will lining guys up in a straight line in cover minimize any chances of templates hitting models?"

You place the template over a model. I don't recall if the hole needs to centered or not.

The vehicles have Combat Speed and Cruising Speed. Fast vehicles have third 'Flat Out' speed.

Thoughts on the snippets above (thanks Asmodai and Widderslainte)

Pg 3 - Blast markers now hit if they cover any part of the base. This is a nice boost for Frag Missiles, and Ordnance.
Pg 4 - The term 'model is much more explicitly defined than before. This is a good sign.

Agreed on both, though I'm worried that the scattering blasts will slow down play.

Pg 16 - They explicitly say you can't shoot a Space Marine's back banner. That's good to have explained since I play with some obtuse players.

That’s already in the 4th ed rulebook, but if they did make LOS clearer, it’s obviously doubleplusgood.

"Models are not allowed to fire through the gaps in an intervening unit."
You can shoot over friends if you're on a hill. This is done via the Laser Pointer method to see if the hill is high enough to not clip the heads of a friendly unit ahead of you. You can also shoot through your own unit with no problems. The 'Covering Fire' rule cuts down on some obvious abuses - but this still looks problematic to me.

In Warhammer Fantasy both friendly and enemy units block LOS, and you can’t see through the gaps in a unit of skirmishers. Units on higher ground can see over intervening units, and units defined as Large Targets can see and be seen over other units. Forests are very much like 4th ed area terrain (though you can only see through 2”, not 6”). Technically LOS is model’s eye view other than that, though house rules to make other terrain (specifically hills) abstract are extremely common. I’m very interested in how much abstraction is used here and how well it’s explained. LOS is obviously an extremely important issue which needs to be explained better in 5th.

Pg 21 - Cover is better than before. It ranges from 5+ - 3+ and is generally 1 better than similar cover was in 4th.
Pg 22 - If you're deep in cover in area terrain, your opponent gets a cover save. The way wounds are allocated makes partial cover simple to resolve.

I’m interested to see the rules for how you determine who’s in cover and who’s not. The 4th edition rules are better than 3rd, but still have a couple of holes.

p 31 - You can only assault the unit you shot at.

p 47 - Characters are treated as a separate unit in close combat. (Note that the new wound allocation does lessen the power of hidden 'Fists, so they've moved up in relative terms).

p 46 - Characters with retinues cannot leave them.

p 43 - You can shoot while falling back.

p 49 - City Ruins are area terrain. Different heights are measured base to base as usual. You use movement to move up and down and any excess beyond what's needed to move onto a level is wasted and you can't end up between levels.

These five are already rules in 4th.

p 42 - Friends falling back can trigger a morale check. This is big for Guard and Tau.

This was part of the Trial Assault Rules in 3rd edition.

p 48 - Perils of the Warp is an automatic wound with no armour or cover save allowed - per previous rumours.

This might actually reduce the number of Eldrads wandering around.

p 51 - Blasts are fired at a particular level.

Good call. More rules taking multi-level buildings into account would help.

p 61 - Vehicles have the 'Relentless' special rule that allows them to fire weapons as if stationary. This clears up the ambiguity about Rapid Fire weapons. (Bikers get this too.)

If it’s a USR, unfortunately Chaos Terminators will be left out.

p 70 – Dedicated transports can transport other units later. Yay!

This one is very interesting. Particularly since this had been a big question and common point of confusion for new players ever since 3rd ed first came out. There are some distinct potential abuses here with elite units which aren’t normally permitted a Transport option.

p 78 - The 'Eternal Warrior' special rule means immunity to instant death. Remember that Daemon Herald have this special rule and people wondered what it meant.

CSM Daemon Princes and Eldar Phoenix Lords have it already. Makes sense as a USR.

p 87 - Army lists are not secret.

A distinct departure from Warhammer Fantasy, and an interesting nod to tournament/competitive play.

Asmodai wrote:
p 61 - Vehicles have the 'Relentless' special rule that allows them to fire weapons as if stationary. This clears up the ambiguity about Rapid Fire weapons. (Bikers get this too.)

If you move you can only fire one weapon, except for defensive weapons (S4 or lower). There's no exception for Tau or pintle-weapons.

I'm not following this part about the vehicles since the special rule seems to overrule the move & fire rule. Or is this mostly for bikes and rapid fire weapons?

Also, do bikes get the option to 'Run' as well? Any other changes to bikes?

Thanks!

"There are some distinct potential abuses here with elite units which aren’t normally permitted a Transport option."

I'm just picturing players using an Ork Trukk to transport Repentia in an Apocalypse game.

Kilkrazy wrote:Basically out of all of that I see a few things that help Tau.

The new vehicle damage chart is good news as long as you can get yourself glanced, because it lets decoy launchers be very effective.
There's a lot more cover saves going on so markerlights will be more useful.
Pathfinders finally get a Scout ability for their obligatory Devilfish.
The replaced LOS screening will allow Crisis Suits to use FWs or Kroot as shields via the jump-shoot-jump-back move.
Freeing up transports to carry anyone is useful. It makes an upgraded D'fish into a useful battletaxi-cum-light fire support unit.
Template weapons have improved a bit.

However there is also a lot of bad.
Less firing of weapons from vehicles.
FW are weak in H2H and will not like all the assault armies getting faster.
Kroot lose their ability to see through more than 6 inches of forest cover.
The allocate saves rule makes shield drones less useful though not entirely useless.
Tau sniper rifles are not Sniper and derive no benefit from that rule.
Piranhas get a lot slower without any benefits.
The new morale rules are going to hurt Ld7 armies.

It is hard to say if the overall effect is up, down or sideways.

I am looking forwards to some assessments about the other factions.

If the "models' LOS is taken from models' eye view" rumor is correct, Tau goes back to playing with Stealth suits again. Huge shame.
Bonded firewarriors will essentially get two rolls for rallying if they choose to "get down."
Vespid can be useful if they follow behind skimmers or interact with aggressive crisis teams.
Large Kroot units in woods or ruins may be taken for screening.

I agree with the hazy overall effect. I could see myself taking vespids, kroot, and o'shovah in a very aggressive list. Maybe Mech Tau with firewarrior firing lines and Kroot rushes, with devilfish blocking LOS for concentrated efforts.

Asmodai wrote:Very interesting.
Some observations:

Pg 15 - 'Running' works exactly like Fleet of Foot does now.

I can't remember - is the armor save restriction on fleet in the main book or was that an older edition or Eldar specific?

I believe it was 3rd edition eldar specific.

That was the 3rd edition Eldar book.

There's no Armour Save restriction in the 5th leak.

Mannahnin wrote:Thoughts on the snippets above (thanks Asmodai and Widderslainte)

p 61 - Vehicles have the 'Relentless' special rule that allows them to fire weapons as if stationary. This clears up the ambiguity about Rapid Fire weapons. (Bikers get this too.)

If it’s a USR, unfortunately Chaos Terminators will be left out.

It is. Slow and Purposeful is still there, but I forgot to see if had been changed at all.

Kilkrazy wrote:We may find that troops with assault weapons are allowed to move, shoot and pseudo-fleet, and troops with RF weapons are allowed to move and shoot to max range, but not pseudo-fleet the same turn.

I don't see how this follows from the rumors.

Running ("pseudo fleet") costs both shooting *and* charging.
Fleet costs shooting, but no effect on charging.
Rapid-Fire costs charging.
Assault weapons are the only things that allow movement, shooting, and assault.

So as I see it:
- Run! (pseudo-Fleet), NO shoot, NO charge
- Move & Fleet!, NO shoot, charge
- Move, fire Assault, charge
- Move, Rapid-Fire!, NO charge

- stay, Rapid-Fire long, NO charge
- stay, fire Heavy, NO charge

Wow this leak is a eye opener !! Pg 23 - They reversed the fluff rationale for heavy weapons' saves - either he was the only one trained or the weapon was damaged.
man that blows most units in the world cross train all guns just for this sort of thing. but still the rules as a whole look good .

now with this one p 48 - Perils of the Warp is an automatic wound with no armour or cover save allowed - per previous rumours.
i now it says cover save do they mean Inv. save

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:I have yet to see where TMC's would gain the new March move ability.

Unless in the next Tyranid codex, whenever that may come out, they allow venon cannons to get penetrating hits. But my suspicion is that with a new edition of the tyranid codex, the zilla list will no longer be viable.

I think you'll have to wait for the next Codex. The TMCs shouldn't want to March anyways, as they should be primarily HtH builds with supporting fire, using the same conceptual template as the Defiler. The Defiler got Fleet added and it's a Walker, so you can expect that the Fex will get Fleet added as well.

I don't think Venom Cannons will get Penetrating Hits. That much seems to be settled rules-wise over the past couple editions. I think GW is going to force Nids to be more fighty than shooty, and that the current-style of gun-Fex Zilla Nids are doomed. I think that future claw-Fex Zilla Nids will be fine.

Warseer wrote:
The chart for missions says
1-2 = Recon
3-4= Take and Hold
5-6 = Total Anihiliation

Total Anihilation = Get 'Kill Points' for units destroyed or falling back. HQ=3pts. Fast, Heavy, Elite = 2pts Troops=1pt

This is beautiful. Most missions based on Scoring units and mobile objectives. The kill scenario is well-done, and most importantly, isn't the 1st starting scenario. Troops are automatic KP denial, where HQs are KPs on a stick. Awesome.

Oh and later on its says VPs are used to decide draws.

Nice! VPs largely don't matter except in rare circumstances. This is very much what I hoped GW would do.

only troops are scoring, except if falling back / it is a transport? / it has a specific rule saying it isn't scoring.

Totally as expected.

The bias is going to shift pretty clearly towards having mobile Troops because 2/3 of the scenarios need them. The KP scenario is a nice translation of the old holdover system, but will be much faster to tally up in nearly all cases.

Deployment

It's nice that they're going with non-alternating deployment. Much faster. And much better in terms of Attacker / Defender. 1st turn is no longer an advantage, as your opponent can react.

Asmodai wrote:If you move you can only fire one weapon, except for defensive weapons (S4 or lower). There's no exception for Tau or pintle-weapons.

GW Epic Fail!

See y'all in 6th Ed...

BYE

While Skimmers Moving Fast gives a nice cover save, that can theoretically be "Fortuned" - you don't get Cover Saves from CC attacks....

Go Power Klaw Nobz ripping Falcons out of the sky!

Asmodai wrote:If you move you can only fire one weapon, except for defensive weapons (S4 or lower). There's no exception for Tau or pintle-weapons.

I still can't get over how much this annoys me.

Off the top of my head, these are units that get whacked by the new rules.
-tornadoes, predators, crusaders
-chimeras, leman russ (both variations)
-ionheads
-falcons, vipers

Most of these units will no longer see any play. (barring the falcon and leman russ) Whats worse, its an obvious attempt to nerf the Falcon and Tornado, neither one of which was overpowered because of its rate of fire. And both are already getting fixes in the new edition anyway. The change to add defensive weapons was, in my mind, the best change they made from 3rd to 4th. It helped encourage a more mobile style of play. But now you own those units, so GW has no further use for them.

Kilkrazy wrote:It is an interesting moral and legal question whether we should spread the leaked rules further (assuming they are real.)

Copyright fair dealing allows the quotation of rules in order to discuss and criticise them.

GW should perhaps have kept them under better guard, but then again, many companies allow these kind of leaks specifically to do viral type marketing and get uncensored customer feedback.

I thought it would be both hilarious and awesome if Dakka people/HMBC/some guy edited the pdf with a set of better rule changes and let it loose on the internet.

skullspliter888 wrote:Wow this leak is a eye opener !! Pg 23 - They reversed the fluff rationale for heavy weapons' saves - either he was the only one trained or the weapon was damaged.
man that blows most units in the world cross train all guns just for this sort of thing. but still the rules as a whole look good .

now with this one p 48 - Perils of the Warp is an automatic wound with no armour or cover save allowed - per previous rumours.
i now it says cover save do they mean Inv. save

Cover saves are distinguished from Invulnerable Saves. So Eldar would still get their Ward Save. Being in a bunker won't protect you from the warp though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nice! VPs largely don't matter except in rare circumstances. This is very much what I hoped GW would do.

It should speed up the post-game since you won't need to do math unless it's a draw.

waterlootian wrote:
I'm not following this part about the vehicles since the special rule seems to overrule the move & fire rule. Or is this mostly for bikes and rapid fire weapons?

Also, do bikes get the option to 'Run' as well? Any other changes to bikes?

Thanks!

Sorry. I missed this earlier.

It's mostly for Rapid Fire weapons - e.g. the Land Raider Crusader's Hurricane Bolters. The 4th edition rulebook never clarified how Rapid Fire weapons on vehicles worked. This seems to have been addressed.

Bikes can't run. They can fire one weapon for each rider if I remember right - meaning that Attack Bikes can fire their Bolters and their Heavy.

I don't quite undestand how allocating wounds is going to work. As an example:

My unit of 10 takes 30 shots
He rolls 10 dice, with one blue dice nominating my Sergeant 3 times? So it's possible no wounds are done to my regular joes (However unlikely) yet the unit leader could be forced to save 3 times?
What happens if 4 of those shots are plasma instead of bolters? Do you distribute evenly with wrap around where you wish? IE 14 wounds is 13 regular joes and one unit leader wound rolls?

You mentioned 'covering fire'?

Units that block LOS to friendly units will stop some of the abuse...but the new running and old fleet could still see units cha-cha-chaing back and forth in front of reapers/devs/etc...

Thanks Asmo for the rumours.

Asmodai wrote:

skullspliter888 wrote:Wow this leak is a eye opener !! Pg 23 - They reversed the fluff rationale for heavy weapons' saves - either he was the only one trained or the weapon was damaged.
man that blows most units in the world cross train all guns just for this sort of thing. but still the rules as a whole look good .

now with this one p 48 - Perils of the Warp is an automatic wound with no armour or cover save allowed - per previous rumours.
i now it says cover save do they mean Inv. save

Cover saves are distinguished from Invulnerable Saves. So Eldar would still get their Ward Save. Being in a bunker won't protect you from the warp though.

sweet that also means my Sorcerors get there Invulnerable save

Kilkrazy wrote:It is an interesting moral and legal question whether we should spread the leaked rules further (assuming they are real.)

Copyright fair dealing allows the quotation of rules in order to discuss and criticise them.

GW should perhaps have kept them under better guard, but then again, many companies allow these kind of leaks specifically to do viral type marketing and get uncensored customer feedback.

Seeing as how the leaked Codexii have recently been available beforehand, I'm starting to think that GW is intentionally leaking the new rules to monitor the conversations on sites like this and Warseer. It makes good financial sense. If the rules have any huge problems or discrepancies they can alter them. At least I hope they are doing this, if it leads to better clearer rules.

Also, What does it say about ordinance? Is that still move and fire?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:We may find that troops with assault weapons are allowed to move, shoot and pseudo-fleet, and troops with RF weapons are allowed to move and shoot to max range, but not pseudo-fleet the same turn.

I don't see how this follows from the rumors.

Running ("pseudo fleet") costs both shooting *and* charging.
Fleet costs shooting, but no effect on charging.
Rapid-Fire costs charging.
Assault weapons are the only things that allow movement, shooting, and assault.

So as I see it:
- Run! (pseudo-Fleet), NO shoot, NO charge
- Move & Fleet!, NO shoot, charge
- Move, fire Assault, charge
- Move, Rapid-Fire!, NO charge

- stay, Rapid-Fire long, NO charge
- stay, fire Heavy, NO charge

I was assuming the rumours are not necessarily the confirmed final rules so there may be changes.

Samwise158 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It is an interesting moral and legal question whether we should spread the leaked rules further (assuming they are real.)

Copyright fair dealing allows the quotation of rules in order to discuss and criticise them.

GW should perhaps have kept them under better guard, but then again, many companies allow these kind of leaks specifically to do viral type marketing and get uncensored customer feedback.

Seeing as how the leaked Codexii have recently been available beforehand, I'm starting to think that GW is intentionally leaking the new rules to monitor the conversations on sites like this and Warseer. It makes good financial sense. If the rules have any huge problems or discrepancies they can alter them. At least I hope they are doing this, if it leads to better clearer rules.

Also, What does it say about ordinance? Is that still move and fire?

O GW forum watcher if you are here please let us know move a chair or sorry watched taps last night

but for real it would be a smart move to see what people think of the new rules

AgeOfEgos wrote:I don't quite undestand how allocating wounds is going to work. As an example:

My unit of 10 takes 30 shots
He rolls 10 dice, with one blue dice nominating my Sergeant 3 times? So it's possible no wounds are done to my regular joes (However unlikely) yet the unit leader could be forced to save 3 times?
What happens if 4 of those shots are plasma instead of bolters? Do you distribute evenly with wrap around where you wish? IE 14 wounds is 13 regular joes and one unit leader wound rolls?

You mentioned 'covering fire'?

Units that block LOS to friendly units will stop some of the abuse...but the new running and old fleet could still see units cha-cha-chaing back and forth in front of reapers/devs/etc...

Thanks Asmo for the rumours.

Welcome.

The way it works if you take 27 wounds in a ten-man Marine squad. You'd allocate one wound to each model before you allocate a second wound to each model, then you begin allocating the third wounds. You'd probably allocate it to the 7 rank and file and none of those to the Sergeant, Plasma Gun and Lascannon.

You then roll 2 saves each for the specialists, and the 21 saves for the rank and file all-together (since you can pick and choose from the identically equipped ones).

Plasma wouldn't allow a save. I'm not completely clear on how it would work. The rules said the controlling player gets to decide which model is wounded - so it looks like you could allocate the Plasma Shots to a RnF. It would seem unsporting if you could allocate all the Plasma to models in cover for a unit in mixed cover, so that might not be how it works.

'Covering Fire' means that you can shoot at a unit partially blocked by a friendly unit if you can't hurt it with any of your weapons. For example if there was Wraithlord between a Guardian Squad with no heavy weapon and a Chaos Marine squad, the Guardians could ignore the Wraithlord and shoot the Chaos Marines. The rule is there to prevent your opponent from using your tanks as cover in an unrealistic manner.

Samwise158 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It is an interesting moral and legal question whether we should spread the leaked rules further (assuming they are real.)

Copyright fair dealing allows the quotation of rules in order to discuss and criticise them.

GW should perhaps have kept them under better guard, but then again, many companies allow these kind of leaks specifically to do viral type marketing and get uncensored customer feedback.

Seeing as how the leaked Codexii have recently been available beforehand, I'm starting to think that GW is intentionally leaking the new rules to monitor the conversations on sites like this and Warseer. It makes good financial sense. If the rules have any huge problems or discrepancies they can alter them. At least I hope they are doing this, if it leads to better clearer rules.

Also, What does it say about ordinance? Is that still move and fire?

Ordnance didn't seem to be covered. It said Ordnance was covered in the vehicle section on page XX, but the vehicle section never touched on it. I suspect it's still to be done.

I'm hoping the rules answer the following questions:

Did they drop tank shock in favor of ramming? Is their still a Death or Glory option? (that's one of my favorite rules). Did they explain how skimmer tank shock works?

It sounds like all non-large model units will block LOS to each other. This sounds good because I loathed the days of 2x model height in 3ed.

It feels like a big shift back to assault based armies for fifth edition. We won't see rhino rush, but there will be rhino walls galore.

Tanks getting cover saves (and re-rollable ones with fortune) is a big boost and will help counter all the infantry hordes I hope.

Was there any mention of Area terrain? Does a forest block LOS if you are on the other side of it from your target? or do they just get a cover save?

I don't like defensive weapons being Str 4 and hope they keep it at Str 6.

Ebon wrote:I'm hoping the rules answer the following questions:

Did they drop tank shock in favor of ramming? Is their still a Death or Glory option? (that's one of my favorite rules). Did they explain how skimmer tank shock works?

It sounds like all non-large model units will block LOS to each other. This sounds good because I loathed the days of 2x model height in 3ed.

It feels like a big shift back to assault based armies for fifth edition. We won't see rhino rush, but there will be rhino walls galore.

Tanks getting cover saves (and re-rollable ones with fortune) is a big boost and will help counter all the infantry hordes I hope.

Was there any mention of Area terrain? Does a forest block LOS if you are on the other side of it from your target? or do they just get a cover save?

I don't like defensive weapons being Str 4 and hope they keep it at Str 6.

Tank Shock still exists. Ramming is for vehicle vs. vehicle collisions. Death or Glory is still in there. There's no special rules for skimmers that I noticed - so skimmer tanks could tank shock like everyone else.

Area terrain is mentioned. The forest wouldn't block line of sight (unless it did so physically), but you would get a cover save.

Asmodai wrote:
'Covering Fire' means that you can shoot at a unit partially blocked by a friendly unit if you can't hurt it with any of your weapons. For example if there was Wraithlord between a Guardian Squad with no heavy weapon and a Chaos Marine squad, the Guardians could ignore the Wraithlord and shoot the Chaos Marines. The rule is there to prevent your opponent from using your tanks as cover in an unrealistic manner.

Thanks for the clarification on the shooting, although 'covering fire' seems pretty silly to me. So NO vehicles block LOS if the troop is armed with bolters (Or whatever weapons that would not harm the tank)? It would seem strange if I could suddenly shoot through my Land Raiders, in fact if that is the case, Land Raiders could be pretty damn good walls. I would think tanks block LOS all the time, regardless though.

If tanks are not included in 'covering fire', I don't see how often it will come up for use. Bolters are str 4, so really you would need T 8 or higher for it to come into effect...and how many things besides tanks have that?

Thanks again.